Anti-headscarf Adana school principal suspended

[RazPaK]

Let the liberal facists go on.

 

[DRaisinHerald]

Let's raise our children naked. When they're 18 they can decide if they want to wear these oppressive clothes or not

 

[Targon]

DRaisinHerald

From my posts is that what you get ? I'm supporting free mind in "every"where, if Atheist parents force their children to be Atheists, thats morally wrong too.

Secular= Government being neutral, at least ideally.

 

[Armstrong]

Let's raise our children naked. When they're 18 they can decide if they want to wear these oppressive clothes or not

Bhai tou toouu pehlee khissskaaa hova hai....tou apne saaath larkoon me reh kar pakaaa pakaaa 'ahem...ahem' ho jai ga ?

 

[DRaisinHerald]

From my posts is that what you get ? I'm supporting free mind in "every"where, if Atheist parents force their children to be Atheists, thats morally wrong too

Freemind = imposing your ideologies on others.

Ever thought hundreds of millions of people around the world don't agree that 'head scarves are oppressive'? Let's speak logic here, the headscarf is as oppressive as wearing clothes. Just because a few people think otherwise doesn't automatically make it so.

 

[Armstrong]

DRaisinHerald

From my posts is that what you get ? I'm supporting free mind in "every"where, if Atheist parents force their children to be Atheists, thats morally wrong too.

Secular= Government being neutral, at least ideally.

Is that even possible ? Even ideally ? Is religion or forget religion...is a person's belief system whether its of a 'spiritual nature' or whether its a 'socio-political-economic-proprietary or legal belief system' like another, a cap that one takes off as soon as one steps into the Parliament or anyother officiating capacity ?

 

[Targon]

For the god's sake can you read the posts firsts ? did I said that head scarf is oppressive or should be banned ? all I said children should not be forced in early ages to do that, they should decide themselves when they able to decide, because its something will change their whole life view.

Freemind=Freemind, I didn't know that meanings of words changed.

Armstrong, my English is not enough for that can you write simplier ?

 

[TrMhMt]

This argue is pointless really...

I dont care what do you believe in. Even doesn't matter if you worship a cream cheese but in Islam kids under responsibility of parents and parents must teach laws of Islam. That is clear enough i hope.

So you free mind supporters must respect it.

 

[Targon]

Free mind supporters should respect mind abusement ? anyway your profile pic says your story, so I will not continue on this discussion anymore.

 

[TrMhMt]

Dude what kind of mind abusement is this? How do we abuse the mind of kids? Teaching the law of religion is abusing of mind? i really don't get it. As a muslim, i must teach the laws of Islam. This is order of my religion.

Edit: As i said, this argue is pointless. Anyway...

 

[livingdead]

Free mind supporters should respect mind abusement ? anyway your profile pic says your story, so I will not continue on this discussion anymore.

I understand Dawkin's argument that all religious indocrination in childhood(especially labelling of a child) is child abuse, but it is impractical to expect parents not telling their children what they think is right.
But specific to muslim country and societies which are becoming more and more fundamentalist about religion, the return of headscarf is a warning sign.

 

[King Solomon]

The converse could also be true if peer-pressure and perception is what 'right and wrong' is contingent on; for a head-scarf wearing girl in a room full of women who don't wear it would be subconsciously assumedthat the girl has been forced to wear the head-scarf by the society in general, her parents, male chauvinism and a whole bunch of other 'discriminatory phenomena' !

Of course, it is the (general) perception that matters. Your point of view is your perception on the matter, and me, mine.

And if one is to argue that a certain kind of conformity even if it doesn't extend beyond 'perception', is a bad thing then why does Europe so fervently insists on 'assimilation' ? Why is someone else's 'normalcy' more palatable then mine ? What makes it so right and my disposition so condemnable ?

Europe insists on "assimilation"?

First of all, sharia law and forced headcover/hijab inherently clashes with European values of freedom and human rights, from their perspective. You cannot tolerate anything and everything when they contradict with your basic values. The Islamic conditioning and relating piety with headcover as I explained before would not be tolerable to European society in general.

If Europe insisted on assimilation "fervently", how can extremist Muslim scholars go around the UK calling for imposing Sharia law for Muslims and Non muslims alike? How can they establish exclusive "sharia zones" where sharia law is imposed even on non muslims? How are they not arrested yet?

"Assimilation" is always relative. When I say Europe is far more welcoming to foreign cultures, I am comparing it to rival countries, not the absolute meaning of "assimilate". Islamic countries are not even prepared to assimilate a rival sect, let alone a different religion. Try being a Shia scholar and preach Shia beliefs in public in Saudi Arabia and see how quickly you are arrested for being an "infidel Shia" who is "misguiding" people. We also know the treatment of minorities in Pakistan - Very few (if any) non muslim who holds upper positions in the government. Leave Europe. How many churches and synagogues are there in Saudi Arabia compared to the no. of mosques in the little country of Israel? Yet you blame Europe for your perceived lack of assimilation of foreign cultures/religion?

One might also argue that if one were to start regulating 'perception' and 'peer-pressure' and then go one step beyond by 'legislating' then where does one draw the line ? Where does it become far too intrusive ? And who gives the 'State' the right to speculate on what is or isn't going through the mind of the said person ?

When legislating, of course, the general values of the state will be taken into account. For Turkey, this is the ideal of freedom and secularism. For Pakistan, this may be Islamism being an "islamic republic". Secularism and Islamism, theoretically, clash very little but this is a different debate.

And who gives the 'State' the right to speculate on what is or isn't going through the mind of the said person ? Ans: The voters. The state is there to speculate what is right and what is wrong and it is the representative of the majority. For example, theft is a "wrong action". However, for thieves, it may be perceived as a necessary or right action. The values of theft may go against the basic values of "equity" of a state and be made illegal. Similarly:

Again, my point, as stated in previous post: If a headscarf-ed girl and a non-headscarf-ed girl comes to a muslim, he will subconsciously assume the headscarf-ed girl is more pious and trustworthy than the one who did not wear. Judgment will be done based on appearance rather than personality. Over time, this discrimination would become rampant across society and will pressurize girls to be headscarf-ed. This subconscious phenomenon is unique to Islamic culture (not religion) which is not widely adhered to by other religion's followers. Thus, it is the Islamic headscarf which is the threat to society, not Christian headcover or Jewish cap.

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How is this subconscious phenomenon unique to Islam ? What substantiates this to be true ?

Throughout this debate, not once have I blamed "Islam" for this headscarf issue because I know very well Islam neither mandates nor advises any such thing as headscarf, hijab or veil.

The debate is about the "islamic culture", or Islam as it is generally practiced or perceived as "should be practiced" by majority of Muslims. More accurately, you can say we are debating whether "Arab cultural imperialism in the garb of Islam" should be assimilated/allowed by other cultures or not, especially by a secular society like Turkey and Europe.

I am at a short of time and will reply to the rest of your post as I get the opportunity.

 

[Deno]

I can never understand religious people... How can they not see that their worship of allah is the same as primitive peoples woship of fire... It is just more complex because with time human intelligences became more complex too. Religions are about fear and instaling fear in ones children is abusive.

Do that and you will burn n eternal fires of hell for al etarnity...

What? You wanna do this? Than you are a heathen!! You will burn in allahs hell for endless times!!

You can simplfy religions by this '''Booooooooouuuu... Scaarrryyy...''' They are nothing more than long boring horror books to control humanity and put shackles to their free minds. What a simple mindset.

 

[RazPaK]

I can never understand religious people... How can they not see that their worship of allah is the same as primitive peoples woship of fire... It is just more complex because with time human intelligences became more complex too. Religions are about fear and instaling fear in ones children is abusive.

Do that and you will burn n eternal fires of hell for al etarnity...

What? You wanna do this? Than you are a heathen!! You will burn in allahs hell for endless times!!

You can simplfy religions by this '''Booooooooouuuu... Scaarrryyy...''' They are nothing more than long boring horror books to control humanity and put shackles to their free minds. What a simple mindset.

You are entitled to your belief. The problem comes when you start dictating your beliefs to others. Live and let live.

 

[Deno]

You are entitled to your belief. The problem comes when you start dictating your beliefs to others. Live and let live.

I am all about that but unfourtanately religions have a big, huge, gargantuan problems with what you wrote...