Another Mirage Squadron To Convert To J-10 Aircraft

[mdmm]

From people I talk with, it can go up to the 80-90 range, with a possibility of 110 total. But as funds would permit

Is it a final deal to buy 90 of J-10 C jet fighters and when is possibilities to receive all 90 on Pak land ??
My Canadian friend ( Rtd from airforce) told me that Chinese J-10 c is much better than current Indian 4th plus, Generation jet fighters.

 

[PakFactor]

Is it a final deal to buy 90 of J-10 C jet fighters and when is possibilities to receive all 90 on Pak land ??
My Canadian friend ( Rtd from airforce) told me that Chinese J-10 c is much better than current Indian 4th plus, Generation jet fighters.

It's on the table but too due to the financial mess big purchase items are on hold including J-10C.

 

[mdmm]

Due to some reasons, PAF donot want to build more JF17 Block3 etc etc.
As Pakistan did not get any purchase order from overseas and Pakistani pilots are more interested to fly J-10 C .
Rather than closing JF17 units , there is a possibility that PAF engineers will use present factory in Pakistan to assemble J-10 C in Pakistan.
Currently PAF is getting 36 of J-10 C from China and are hoping to get more in future.. I heard that Pakistan is planning to talk with China on assembling
J-10 C in Pakistan with some additions and modifications.
But it will take time, when there is money in Pakistan ...

 

[GriffinsRule]

Due to some reasons, PAF donot want to build more JF17 Block3 etc etc.
As Pakistan did not get any purchase order from overseas and Pakistani pilots are more interested to fly J-10 C .
Rather than closing JF17 units , there is a possibility that PAF engineers will use present factory in Pakistan to assemble J-10 C in Pakistan.
Currently PAF is getting 36 of J-10 C from China and are hoping to get more in future.. I heard that Pakistan is planning to talk with China on assembling
J-10 C in Pakistan with some additions and modifications.
But it will take time, when there is money in Pakistan ...

Pilots have no say in what they get to fly. No more block 3s due to funding. You have to budget for their construction from what revenue the govt gets. J-10s are on loan payments and tomorrow's problem. But you won't see many more of those either for a while

 

[MastanKhan]

Due to some reasons, PAF donot want to build more JF17 Block3 etc etc.
As Pakistan did not get any purchase order from overseas and Pakistani pilots are more interested to fly J-10 C .
Rather than closing JF17 units , there is a possibility that PAF engineers will use present factory in Pakistan to assemble J-10 C in Pakistan.
Currently PAF is getting 36 of J-10 C from China and are hoping to get more in future.. I heard that Pakistan is planning to talk with China on assembling
J-10 C in Pakistan with some additions and modifications.
But it will take time, when there is money in Pakistan ...

Hi,

So---BLK3 JF17 has aesa ----as does the J10C's. Now ask your air force friend---how much resource does the Paf needs to train fresh pilots to the aesa equipped machines.

That is a massive commitment and is extremely technology & labor intensive to get new technicians ready for totally new battle system as well as the pilots---and not forgetting the other support groups in the background---.

Getting the aircraft is easy---utilizing their strength to 110 % of their capacity is something else---.

The current BLK 3 was supposed to come out awhile ago but with the maturing of certain available technologies it got delayed some and then some more till the Paf was satisfied with its operational capabilities---and confident that it would perform beyond expectations---.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I for one do not see an end to the Block 3. PAF logically will want most, if not all, its air-defense and strike a/c equipped with an AESA radar. There will be some retrofitting on the block 2 airframe but by and large, the force will keep on producing block 3 to replace older aircraft still in service.

The current strength of PAF includes 44 F-16 AM/BM (All MLUed a/c) 13 ADF (Procured from Jordan) and 18 Block 52. Roughly 75 a/c. 25 J-10C out of an order of 36 aircraft. 47 JF-17A Block 1, 62 JF-17A Block 2, 25 JF-17B Block 2, 15 JF-17A Block 3 out of an order of 50 a/c. That totals 249 aircraft. with further 9+35= 44 aircraft on order.

IMHO 231 aircraft have to be replaced (this includes Mirages 3 and 5 and F-7PG's).

As per my calc. following aircraft will be replaced by:

80 Mirage 3 various variants will be replaced by combo of Block 3 and J-10C (I suspect a D version of J-10 might come into play some time later)
90 Mirage 5 various sub variants will be replaced by Combo of JF -17 block 3 and J-10C.
53 F-7PG's to be replaced by JF-17 Block 3A's.

The above calc. if correct, means that 231 a/c procurement is in the pipeline for the next ten years if we keep all F-16 flying till then. If nothing else the PG's will be replaced by 60 JF-17A's B3 with a further 25 aircraft to be ordered (35+18=53). So, we may see a further 18 aircraft being ordered of the A or B variant of Block3.

This leaves 178 aircrafts to be replaced. Some folks are reporting an order of 50 J-10's instead of 36. This gives us a further squadron of J-10C's that are being earmarked to replace one of the mirage squadrons.

The bottom line is that for the next ten years PAF will be procuring 178 aircraft to replace its aging fleet on a one-to-one basis. JF-17A or B, Block 3 will play a definitive role in the procurement.

KAAN, J-20, or J-35 types will be on another plane and will most likely be inducted in replacement of F-16 Fleet.

That is my 2C worth.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

I for one do not see an end to the Block 3. PAF logically will want most, if not all, its air-defense and strike a/c equipped with an AESA radar. There will be some retrofitting on the block 2 airframe but by and large, the force will keep on producing block 3 to replace older aircraft still in service.

The current strength of PAF includes 44 F-16 AM/BM (All MLUed a/c) 13 ADF (Procured from Jordan) and 18 Block 52. Roughly 75 a/c. 25 J-10C out of an order of 36 aircraft. 47 JF-17A Block 1, 62 JF-17A Block 2, 25 JF-17B Block 2, 15 JF-17A Block 3 out of an order of 50 a/c. That totals 249 aircraft. with further 9+35= 44 aircraft on order.

IMHO 231 aircraft have to be replaced (this includes Mirages 3 and 5 and F-7PG's).

As per my calc. following aircraft will be replaced by:

80 Mirage 3 various variants will be replaced by combo of Block 3 and J-10C (I suspect a D version of J-10 might come into play some time later)
90 Mirage 5 various sub variants will be replaced by Combo of JF -17 block 3 and J-10C.
53 F-7PG's to be replaced by JF-17 Block 3A's.

The above calc. if correct, means that 231 a/c procurement is in the pipeline for the next ten years if we keep all F-16 flying till then. If nothing else the PG's will be replaced by 60 JF-17A's B3 with a further 25 aircraft to be ordered (35+18=53). So, we may see a further 18 aircraft being ordered of the A or B variant of Block3.

This leaves 178 aircrafts to be replaced. Some folks are reporting an order of 50 J-10's instead of 36. This gives us a further squadron of J-10C's that are being earmarked to replace one of the mirage squadrons.

The bottom line is that for the next ten years PAF will be procuring 178 aircraft to replace its aging fleet on a one-to-one basis. JF-17A or B, Block 3 will play a definitive role in the procurement.

KAAN, J-20, or J-35 types will be on another plane and will most likely be inducted in replacement of F-16 Fleet.

That is my 2C worth.

That was doable in ideal economic situation. Next 5 years is too tough on Pakistan economically as most of debt installments are due during this period. You estimated PAF will procure 178 aircrafts by next 10 years. That's about 18 aircrafts per year. Easily over a billion dollar per year just on procurement that's excluding trainings / logistics and weapon systems.

I see far less numbers going to be procured in next 10 years because of economic situation. Also we know that single JF-17 block 3 is way more costly and capable then the F-7PG its replacing. So one to one replacements are not necessary, We can survive with one replacing two to three older 2nd gen fighters. Same goes for J-10C replacing mirage squadrons.

We are also not calculating the capability and roles being acquired by new Chinese & Turkish UCAV systems. Today our Mirage aircraft has no capability to survive in air to air combat, its sole purpose is SOW (like H2,H4s etc) delivery platform from safe distance. The new heavier drones are adding our attack options and we will be okay if 25 J-10Cs and 50 UCAVs replace over a 100 mirages.

So, in my opinion we are going to be okay even if we induct far less number of aircrafts than you calculated.

Also, I see many people are quoting initial order of J-10Cs as 36. The initial order was never 36. No body has a source to validate these claims. Only count that was revealed by any official was Shk rasheed and he said the initial order was 25. So that means that order is already complete.

We will surely induct more but that number totally dependent on economic stability, that's related with exports, investors confidence, political stability and lot other factors.

 

[mdmm]

Hi,

So---BLK3 JF17 has aesa ----as does the J10C's. Now ask your air force friend---how much resource does the Paf needs to train fresh pilots to the aesa equipped machines.

That is a massive commitment and is extremely technology & labor intensive to get new technicians ready for totally new battle system as well as the pilots---and not forgetting the other support groups in the background---.

Getting the aircraft is easy---utilizing their strength to 110 % of their capacity is something else---.

The current BLK 3 was supposed to come out awhile ago but with the maturing of certain available technologies it got delayed some and then some more till the Paf was satisfied with its operational capabilities---and confident that it would perform beyond expectations---.

Thank you for excellent explanations.

The above calc. if correct, means that 231 a/c procurement is in the pipeline for the next ten years if we keep all F-16 flying till then. If nothing else the PG's will be replaced by 60 JF-17A's B3 with a further 25 aircraft to be ordered (35+18=53). So, we may see a further 18 aircraft being ordered of the A or B variant of Block3

Thank you. Excellent information for overseas Pakistanis.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Eventually, all mirages and F7s have to go.
We will see some of their upgraded examples in near future for further half decade.

Happy to see them being replaced by J10C.

 

[MastanKhan]

Due to some reasons, PAF donot want to build more JF17 Block3 etc etc.
As Pakistan did not get any purchase order from overseas and Pakistani pilots are more interested to fly J-10 C .
Rather than closing JF17 units , there is a possibility that PAF engineers will use present factory in Pakistan to assemble J-10 C in Pakistan.
Currently PAF is getting 36 of J-10 C from China and are hoping to get more in future.. I heard that Pakistan is planning to talk with China on assembling
J-10 C in Pakistan with some additions and modifications.
But it will take time, when there is money in Pakistan ...

Hi,

A couple of decades ago I learnt that the USAF had to UN-TEACH the first pilots how to fly conventional radar equipped aircraft when they were switched to fly aesa equipped aircraft---.

The transition was difficult---it was time consuming---it was extremely intensive---. It took over 1/2 a decade to get the pilots to un-think the conventional method and get onboard with the changing system.

And you should know how difficult it is for us to leave our old habbits that we are used to doing since birth---ti is an impossible task.

Now you are attaching your life to this change---. Previously---you used your conventional means and you understood your chances of survival---. Now you are doing something totally opposite of what you were trained to do and those training you are telling you---this will save you---.

Now tell me how difficult the transition would be---.

 

[Ghessan]

Us urty hoy pipe f7 ko hatao phly

sir, aap aur aap ka humor, really need it now a days.

 

[Kompromat]

I think that there will be a Jeff Block-4, but once the first 2 blocks have been retrofitted. In the meantime PAF will continue to procure Block-3 for replacing older airframes. We'll have more clarity in about a year as more Block-3s are inducted.

The F-7PGs with Grifo radars could technically be made to soldier on with integration of domestic FAAZ BVR missiles, but they will eventually have to be retired. The only good we can do with them later is to convert them into drones for training and expendable use in hostilities.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

USAF had to UN-TEACH the first pilots how to fly conventional radar equipped aircraft when they were itched to fly aesa equipped aircraft---.The transition was difficult---it was time consuming---it was extremely intensive---. It took over 1/2 a decade to get the pilots to un-think the conventional method and get onboard with the changing system.

And you should know how difficult it is for us to leave our old habbits that we are used to doing since birth---ti is an impossible task.

Now you are attaching your life to this change---. Previously---you used your conventional means and you understood your chances of survival---. Now you are doing something totally opposite of what you were trained to do and those training you are telling you---this will save you---.

Now tell me how difficult the transition would be---.

Now, it'd take a miniscule fraction of that time and money to "train" an AI controlled unmanned jet to do the same job! And, it can just be instantly replicated to other unmanned ones at a ZERO cost and time of the pilot training!! One for all, and all for one....

No wonder Elon Mask has opined KIZILELMA type stealthy, smart and low-cost autonomous unmanned combat jets (equipped with AESA, BVR missiles etc.) are the future to go....

According to Baykar CTO Selchuk Bayraktar, he can produce 10 KEs for the cost of a single F-35....

I am pretty sure the PAF high command would go for both KIZILELMA and ANKA-3....

 

[MastanKhan]

Now, it'd take a miniscule fraction of that time and money to "train" an AI controlled unmanned jet to do the same job! And, it can just be instantly replicated to other unmanned ones at a ZERO cost and time of the pilot training!! One for all, and all for one....

No wonder Elon Mask has opined KIZILELMA type stealthy, smart and low-cost autonomous unmanned combat jets (equipped with AESA, BVR missiles etc.) are the future to go....

According to Baykar CTO Selchuk Bayraktar, he can produce 10 KEs for the cost of a single F-35....

I am pretty sure the PAF high command would go for both KIZILELMA and ANKA-3....

Hi,

Yessir---indeed---. Machines have no learning disability---unlke the human brain---just change the old module with a new one and the operational functions change---.

But here is a problem---what if during flight---the enemy can break the electronic code and break into the computer brain during flight---.

For decades---the US has been doing research on breaking the enemy code on the incoming enemy missiles and reprogramming it---means that enemy fires a missile---breaks into the electronic module thru data link and starts to control the flight of the missile---.

Now when did I read about it---almost 25-27 years ago---.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

Yessir---indeed---. Machines have no learning disability---unlke the human brain---just change the old module with a new one and the operational functions change---.

But here is a problem---what if during flight---the enemy can break the electronic code and break into the computer brain during flight---.

For decades---the US has been doing research on breaking the enemy code on the incoming enemy missiles and reprogramming it---means that enemy fires a missile---breaks into the electronic module thru data link and starts to control the flight of the missile---.

Now when did I read about it---almost 25-27 years ago---.

Very valid concerns, and the Turkish approaches, significantly led by the folks from my alma mater (sorry to take pride in it), are the following:

Unique and customized digital wireless communications systems: implemented with indigenous techniques, protocols, critical semiconductor devices and ICs (including baseband microprocessors and controllers, transmitters, receivers, multiplexers etc.), sensors, coding (including OS, programming language, machine hexcodes etc.), hardware, software, encryption mechanisms, EM algorithms, power amplifiers, ultra-fast and high-power microwave and RF devices, antenna systems, signaling mathematics etc. These are prerequisites to make it extremely difficult for the enemy to decode your unknown and unearthed signals and systems within a tremendously fast paced (in the realm of milli seconds) war environment.

Indigenous avionics, radars, WVR/BVR missiles, links etc.: smart knowledge-based intelligent techniques and implementations to take it farther away from your enemy.

Bottom-line: continuous R&D to see before your enemy sees you and to hit before your enemy hits you. Purchase any critical defense related gadgets from a 3rd party, and you're fuckn dead..