Another Chinese incursion, PLA's bomber JH-7 violates India's airspace in Aksai Chin

[Joe Shearer]

Hello Sir ji

I wanted to Know WHERE do you get the ENERGY for debating Kashmir Issues and Topics

For most of us here ; there is nothing to debate ; It is Indian territory
( We only believing in shooting all Anti nationals and foreigners both )

But Sir you have amazing passion and energy for debating the LEGALITIES and the Legalese
of Kashmir

A very good question. A valid question. One I had hoped would be asked, but that never was.

I believe that there is a lot of confused thinking about Kashmir. Our Pakistani friends feel that it should have gone to them. Reasons:

1. Muslim majority
2. Uprisings in parts of it (not the Valley, but in Mirpur and in Gilgit-Baltistan)
3. Pakistan military might

Some Kashmiris think that they should have had a say in the matter, and ask for these:

1. Plebiscite (they have been told that this was promised by UN and forced on India, and that India has very cleverly avoided it, and that Pakistan has loyally supported this demand right from 1947)
2. The right to ask for a not-Pakistan, not-India settlement, essentially, for independence from both Pakistan and India
3. Restoration of state rights taken away by devious means
4. Curbing of human rights violations
5. Investigations into missing persons and into encounter killings

Indians make the mistake of believing both the Pakistani and the separatist Kashmiri accounts, of not listening to Kashmiris themselves who are more than willing to tell us in very well articulated ways what they are looking for urgently, and what they will seek as important once their urgent wishes are granted. As a result of Indian confusion and sheer ignorance of what is going on in Kashmir and had gone on, we have the following:

1. Blaming Nehru for going to the UN, and accepting UN compulsion to hold a plebiscite
2. Failure to let the Indian Army expel the Pakistanis from Kashmir when they were winning the war
3. Giving too much importance to the Abdullah family, the Sheikh, the Doctor and the Baba
4. Giving far too much importance to the Mufti family and their soft separatism
5. Failing to realise that some Kashmiris don't like India, don't like Indians and don't like any religion other than Islam and that they are hugely different from other Indians
6. Owing to their ignorance, falling back on the stupid position that India is there in Kashmir because of superior strength, and will stay in Kashmir due to superior strength

These are the three mistaken points of view that I try to clear up, again and again and again, but rarely with success.

1. People do not know how Kashmir was built up, and why, when the time came, the state dissolved into its components so easily
2. People do not know about the massacres of Hindus in Baramula and in Rajouri, or the massacres of Muslims in western jammu
3. People do not know about the uprising in Sudhanoti and the expulsion of state troops by local insurgents
4. People do not know about the cocktail that was the composition of the so-called tribals, who had elements of genuine Afridi tribesmen, demobilised Indian Army veterans mobilised, armed and deployed by regular Pakistan Army officers, residents of west Jammu and Muslim deserters from the J&K state troops
5. People do not know that the instrument of accession and the question of princely Indian states joining India had been decided decades ago, not at the time of partition, by the first round table conference, by the princes themselves
6. People do not know about the mutiny and betrayal by Major Brown, or the uprising in Gilgit Baltistan, which made it clear that G-B would never return to the Maharaja
7. People do not know that the question of a plebiscite was an Indian condition, initiated by Mountbatten and Nehru
8. People do not know that the plebiscite was suggested to the UN by India, and that it was not pushed onto India
9. People do not know that the UN resolutions call for total vacation of the territory by Pakistan and that Pakistan flatly refused, and that this caused the derailment of the plebiscite
10. People do not know that the option of independence from both Pakistan and India was removed from the terms of the plebiscite by Zafarulla Khan, the Pakistani delegate
11. People do not know that the number of graves found of unknown persons matches the number of infiltrators shot by the Army and the border police and handed over to the local police for disposal, plus or minus 5%
12. People do not distinguish between victims of terrorist violence, victims of accidental death due to cross-firing and terrorists shot in gun battles, or innocents killed in cold blood by the police or by the para-military
13. People do not know about the very large number of Kashmiris who have lost faith in the methods used by the communal Tehreek
14. People do not know about the increasing male domination and the increasing oppression of women by communalists in Kashmiri society taking advantage of the support of armed terrorists from across the border
15. People are simply not willing to listen to how this terrorism is bad for general morale, is bad for a business climate or a tourism industry, and is an unacceptable basis for any kind of further movement towards a settlement.

It is these points that I address and that I try to correct. Most of this is not known to bhakts, who only know how to bark and shout, and keep saying in shrill and hysterical tones that what we acquired by force (a lie) we will keep by force (a crime). Never has a single one of these hyper-patriots come to my help in explaining the facts to members of this forum. That is the shame.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Fair enough.

I wanted to know where you were coming from and the extent of your knowledge and information.

Hmm....Buch-choun k sath Chalaki? So what did u know about me now?

And what about Tibet? Or is that too hot a potato?

I don't know why i wrote Tibet. Probably i was going emotional on how China with so much differences with so many entities yet they avoid war. I seriously ca't even point out Tibet/Taiwan on map. I literally know nothing about them except that there are many Han people in both places and China has had some problems with them in past and may be still. Last time i read about Taiwan was when Pro US lady becomes president of Taiwan. U surely know more than me. lot lot more than me.....

And to let u know.....I often pick hot potatoes first, especially when they are in form of french fries. People like French Fries in India too, isn't it?

Ah, I see. The armchair strategists on the rampage: you may count yourself lucky at having got away with minor, glancing injuries.

Very briefly, first, about China - the matter is really too boring to go into in detail - there are some India-first piss-proud idiots who think that India had a greater opportunity to get into the Security Council, compared to China, which was then Communist and was bitterly opposed by the US, and, as a direct consequence, by the UK and France as well.

If they had read about the Cairo Conference, and about the extent to which China mattered in the discussions among the allies, they might not have been so sure. It is true, on the other hand, that the US managed to keep the PRC at bay for many years, in favour of KMT China, Taiwan, that is, but to imply that Nehru simply gave it away is an over-simplification. The fanboys in question do like simple stuff, the simpler the better.

About Pakistan, they have many complaints against Nehru. It depends on whether at that moment, the person posting is for a forcible separation out of the Muslims (and Christians, but they could be lined up for later disposal) or for a united India, come what may. A plainly contradictory stance, but contradiction never stopped a bhakt...

First, Nehru never should have driven away Jinnah, they feel, Nehru and the Congress should never have given in to Jinnah's demand for separation. They plainly ignore the Jalal Thesis, that Jinnah never really wanted partition, that he was bluffing, but that Thesis is a later-day development and does not occur in the kind of messy writing that bhakts normally encounter.

Second, Nehru should never have given away Kashmir to the Pakistanis. This lot of bhakts is slightly different and can spout a little military strategy.

The fact is that the state of J&K was put together like a patched quilt over some 110 years or so, little patch by little patch. These forcibly integrated bits were ruled with brutal efficiency by the Dogras; there is no point in going into the horrific details in a summary. While the Dogras and the Sikhs were the only armed troops and only trained men in the state, it was a possible strategy. Once the Second World War broke out, things changed dramatically. In 1947, with West Jammu (now known as the Mirpur area, or Azad Kashmir to Kashmiris), awash with demobilised soldiers mainly from the Sudhan community, a flash point was inevitable. Sure enough, around early August, that region revolted, gladly accepted the arms and ammunitions passed on by Pakistani patriots in the Pakistan Army without the knowledge of their British superiors, and slaughtered the few States Forces troopers left. By the time the Maharaja acceded to India, Mirpur had effectively broken away, and Gilgit-Baltistan was on the way.

The bhakts, and quite a few others, expect that Nehru should have driven out the invaders and the subsequent PA intervention, BEFORE going to the UN. To my mind, this is a non-starter, but to a bhakt, any plank is good enough.

Allow me to Thank u for this part. Your such long reply/explanation is making me feel that I really disturbed u. Seriously, I feel privileged. I have never faced such Bomb u just threw at me in this. Thanks. Let me say, all Indian members over here are respectable to me but among them, u r the most respected member for me and other Pakistanis too.

Apologies if u don't like my funny and free attitude.

I will disturb u again after a week or so to further improve my English and to get more hold on different/historical matters.

Could this wait till the evening?

I think I had enough for now. No need to tell me about that one. I'll learn it in near future.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

1. Failure to let the Indian Army expel the Pakistanis from Kashmir when they were winning the war

I am curious about this part though, was this even possible in 1947?

 

[guest11]

@Joe Shearer Thanks for the post. Saved a screenshot.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hmm....Buch-choun k sath Chalaki? So what did u know about me now?

That you don't read enough. That you don't study the background to a question seriously enough. On the other hand, you knew about the Henderson Brooks - Bhagat report (Prem Bhagat was a family friend, and when he died was one of the very few occasions that I saw my father with moist eyes - read up his VC citation, he was one of the bravest of the brave, besides being a cracking good leader of men), and THAT was a definite plus.

I don't know why i wrote Tibet. Probably i was going emotional on how China with so much differences with so many entities yet they avoid war. I seriously ca't even point out Tibet/Taiwan on map. I literally know nothing about them except that there are many Han people in both places and China has had some problems with them in past and may be still. Last time i read about Taiwan was when Pro US lady becomes president of Taiwan. U surely know more than me. lot lot more than me.....

The Chinese raped Tibet. And their claim to suzerainty is based on laughable logic. However, their occupation and destruction of Tibet is a reality, as is their impending destruction of the Dalai Lama - they have already destroyed the Panchen Lama.

And to let u know.....I often pick hot potatoes first, especially when they are in form of french fries. People like French Fries in India too, isn't it?

I cook them. If ever we meet at home, I'll try my cooking on you. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Allow me to Thank u for this part. Your such long reply/explanation is making me feel that I really disturbed u. Seriously, I feel privileged. I have never faced such Bomb u just threw at me in this. Thanks. Let me say, all Indian members over here are respectable to me but among them, u r the most respected member for me and other Pakistanis too.

Disturbed?

No, no, how do I explain?

As I was explaining to an Indian member on this same thread, I feel obliged to set things right when people don't know the facts. And I do it with the occasional querulousness that a 66 year old may be forgiven for displaying, but not with personal ill-will. Irritation, sometimes, anger, rarely, and that only against bigots or advocates of violence or those of a rude disposition. However, even there there are exceptions.

Apologies if u don't like my funny and free attitude.

I'm sorry. Being an old fart, I hadn't noticed. I really must try harder to sense people's emotional states. :-(

I will disturb u again after a week or so to further improve my English and to get more hold on different/historical matters.

Bugger the English! Errm, the English language, I mean. Please ask as much as you want. It will delight me, especially if I feel that you really want to know. And I am usually very honest.

I think I had enough for now. No need to tell me about that one. I'll learn it in near future.

What did I do now?

I am curious about this part though, was this even possible in 1947?

No, it wasn't.

Our lines of communications were stretched out thin, everything was being flown in, and the fighting had reached a stalemate, after the IA nearly took Muzaffarabad.

But try telling our Indian fanboys that.

@Joe Shearer Thanks for the post. Saved a screenshot.

I'm glad you liked it.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

That you don't read enough. That you don't study the background to a question seriously enough. On the other hand, you knew about the Henderson Brooks - Bhagat report (Prem Bhagat was a family friend, and when he died was one of the very few occasions that I saw my father with moist eyes - read up his VC citation, he was one of the bravest of the brave, besides being a cracking good leader of men), and THAT was a definite plus.



The Chinese raped Tibet. And their claim to suzerainty is based on laughable logic. However, their occupation and destruction of Tibet is a reality, as is their impending destruction of the Dalai Lama - they have already destroyed the Panchen Lama.



I cook them. If ever we meet at home, I'll try my cooking on you. Be afraid. Be very afraid.



Disturbed?

No, no, how do I explain?

As I was explaining to an Indian member on this same thread, I feel obliged to set things right when people don't know the facts. And I do it with the occasional querulousness that a 66 year old may be forgiven for displaying, but not with personal ill-will. Irritation, sometimes, anger, rarely, and that only against bigots or advocates of violence or those of a rude disposition. However, even there there are exceptions.



I'm sorry. Being an old fart, I hadn't noticed. I really must try harder to sense people's emotional states. :-(



Bugger the English! Errm, the English language, I mean. Please ask as much as you want. It will delight me, especially if I feel that you really want to know. And I am usually very honest.




What did I do now?

OK. I get my report card, finally

 

[Joe Shearer]

OK. I get my report card, finally

B+ and could easily have been an A- (did I mention I teach?)

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

B+ and could easily have been an A- (did I mention I teach?)

No....u didn't......

 

[axisofevil]

Talking about China's involvement in Korean war? There's always an exception. isn't it?



I was talking about political differences Chinese have with Taiwan, mainly.




Agreed.



Basically, through Internet what i read views of Indians regarding Nehru. They were blaming him to give China support in UNSC and criticizing him in foreign policy matters regarding Pakistan too.




ALRIGHT....but the article i posted in post 67...was from Indian media and those articles were titled by them....as India is aggressor and China is aggrieved. Did u read the interview of journalist from article i posted above? Then please tell me what he was saying in that article? if i didn't understand him correctly.

http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/china-was-the-aggrieved-india-aggressor-in-62/282579



WHEN DID CHINESE ADMITTED THAT THEY INITIATED THE WAR?

It has been the standard adopted and quoted from the officials.

 

[iExpli1t]

This is your first post. You created an account to post this?

yess

 

[dadeechi]

yess

Have fun

Welcome to the forum

 

[iExpli1t]

i already am having it

 

[rcrmj]

Indian attacked China in 1962?

only if your high caste lords told you otherwise

 

[axisofevil]

only if your high caste lords told you otherwise

Only if you White overlords told you otherwise....