Ancient History: the first Sino-Vietnam War 40-43

[Snomannen]

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[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oju8zjB0WV4/UA69FcynauI/AAAAAAAAK9Y/lk_VzFaTN6E/s1600/00.jpg[/IMG]

Why are those Chinese in this picture dress in Qing style.

 

[Icecreamcart]

Why are those Chinese in this picture dress in Qing style.

More than that, I find it ironically hilarious that the Chinese are represented as yellow devils compared to the pale Vietnamese.

 

[EastSea]

Why are those Chinese in this picture dress in Qing style.

More than that, I find it ironically hilarious that the Chinese are represented as yellow devils compared to the pale Vietnamese.

Qin dress is similiar to cherchen , Chinese Hans ruled by Qin and Manchus later on.

 

[Snomannen]

Qin dress is similiar to cherchen , Chinese Hans ruled by Qin and Manchus later on.

It is Qing, not Qin, totally different. When will you stop showing us your lack of knowledge.

Yeah yeah, "similar", your head is similar to egg. You like "similar" don't you.

More than that, I find it ironically hilarious that the Chinese are represented as yellow devils compared to the pale Vietnamese.

That is so 'unprofessional'.

 

[Viet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Guangwu_of_Han

Emperor Guangwu (13 January 5 BC – 29 March 57), born Liu Xiu, was an emperor of the Chinese Han Dynasty, restorer of the dynasty in AD 25 and thus founder of the Later Han or Eastern Han.

He sent an invasion force to Vietnam to put down the rebellion of Trung sisters at any cost.

 

[Viet]

Why are those Chinese in this picture dress in Qing style.

Can you tell me what dress style was in use in that time?

 

[gpit]

The Trưng sisters
Trưng Trắc (徵 &#20596 and Trưng Nhị (徵 &#36019 | (ca. 12 - AD 43)

...

foto: Hai Ba Temple (Hanoi), dedicated to the Trung Sisters

...

Chick History: The Trung Sisters: Vietnam’s First Nationalists

Trung sisters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the end, the Viets memorize their legendary heroines against China with a temple of Chinese style. To glorify further the temple, they will put up distiches (or couplets) in Chinese in the temple...

Regardless, 《大越史記‧越史　卷上》, your Vietnam history book, says: “后汉光武建武十六年，麊泠县人徴侧，雒将之女也，嫁为米鸢县人诗索妻，性甚雄勇，所为不法，太守苏定绳之以法，侧怒，乃与其妹贰起峰州兵，攻陷郡县，九真日南皆应之，略定汉南外六十五城。自立为王，都麊泠。十七年，汉拜马援为伏波将军以击之。十八年，援縁海而进，随山刋道千有馀里，至浪泊上与侧战。侧不能支，退保禁溪。十九年，侧益困，遂走，为援所杀。追击其馀党至居风，降之，乃立铜柱为极界，分其地为封溪、望海二县，援又筑为茧城，其圎如茧。二十一年秋援还汉。” http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=1083299835

Basically saying Trưng Trắc's husband 诗索 was physically strong and was lawless, and the governor put him into legal procedure (perhaps being killed - gpit). Trưng Trắc was angry and went rebellious with her younger sister Trưng Nhị (徵 &#36019, downed 65 cities of Han, and self-claimed a king, capital in 麊泠. Next year (year Later Han Guanwu 17) Han made Ma Yuan (马&#25588 as 伏波将军. The year 18, Ma Yuan moved in along the sea and entered mountain more than a thousand li (li is a Chinese measurement of distance. I just searched, around Han Dynasty 1 li=415.8 meters), and fought with Trưng Trắc on water. Trưng Trắc couldn’t hold, retreated to 禁溪. The year 19, Trưng Trắc got more difficult, and ran away, and was killed by Ma Yuan. Pursued her followers, they all surrendered, erected a copper pillar as demarcation… The year 21, Ma Yuan went back to Han in the autumn.

Google translate it to give back you a true history of Vietnam, by the Vietnamese.

 

[Snomannen]

Can you tell me what dress style was in use in that time?

At least Chinese people do not have braid hairstyle during that time.

http://img.xidong.net/xdpic_n/6081409/0813808.jpg

http://img.xidong.net/xdpic_n/6081409/0813980.jpg

 

[Rechoice]

In the end, the Viets memorize their legendary heroines against China with a temple of Chinese style. To glorify further the temple, they will put up distiches (or couplets) in Chinese in the temple...

Regardless, 《大越史記‧越史　卷上》, your Vietnam history book, says: “后汉光武建武十六年，麊泠县人徴侧，雒将之女也，嫁为米鸢县人诗索妻，性甚雄勇，所为不法，太守苏定绳之以法，侧怒，乃与其妹贰起峰州兵，攻陷郡县，九真日南皆应之，略定汉南外六十五城。自立为王，都麊泠。十七年，汉拜马援为伏波将军以击之。十八年，援縁海而进，随山刋道千有馀里，至浪泊上与侧战。侧不能支，退保禁溪。十九年，侧益困，遂走，为援所杀。追击其馀党至居风，降之，乃立铜柱为极界，分其地为封溪、望海二县，援又筑为茧城，其圎如茧。二十一年秋援还汉。” http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=1083299835

Basically saying Trưng Trắc's husband 诗索 was physically strong and was lawless, and the governor put him into legal procedure (perhaps being killed - gpit). Trưng Trắc was angry and went rebellious with her younger sister Trưng Nhị (徵 &#36019, downed 65 cities of Han, and self-claimed a king, capital in 麊泠. Next year (year Later Han Guanwu 17) Han made Ma Yuan (马&#25588 as 伏波将军. The year 18, Ma Yuan moved in along the sea and entered mountain more than a thousand li (li is a Chinese measurement of distance. I just searched, around Han Dynasty 1 li=415.8 meters), and fought with Trưng Trắc on water. Trưng Trắc couldn’t hold, retreated to 禁溪. The year 19, Trưng Trắc got more difficult, and ran away, and was killed by Ma Yuan. Pursued her followers, they all surrendered, erected a copper pillar as demarcation… The year 21, Ma Yuan went back to Han in the autumn.

Google translate it to give back you a true history of Vietnam, by the Vietnamese.

This book is written by Le Tac, his ancestor was Chinese came to Vietnam as refugee. In the war Viet against Yuan enemy invasion he ran back to China, betrayed the country had given his ancestor chance to alive. In his book he copied it from chronicle book of Han Chinese, lied about the uprising of Trung Nu Vuong and his husband. It's mentality of chinese traitor.
When Mao and his comrades went to Ting Cang San, KMT' propaganda considered Mao was rebel, robber.

 

[Fanling Monk]

Let me post some questions to my Vietnamese friends here. As we know most Vietnamese former royals were once generals and high ministers from the Chinese imperial court. Every time they moved south to takeover the administrations of present day Vietnam they brought their families, assistants and troops and their families. After centuries what happened to all of their offspring:

1) they went back to China? I would think unlikely,

2) They become Vietnamese? highly likely and

3) do the indigenous people called them Hoas? I don't think so.

I assume the Hoas are Chinese who migrated there in the past century or so. Let me know if I'm wrong. Peace.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Let me post some questions to my Vietnamese friends here. As we know most Vietnamese former royals were once generals and high ministers from the Chinese imperial court. Every time they moved south to takeover the administrations of present day Vietnam they brought their families, assistants and troops and their families. After centuries what happened to all of their offspring:

1) they went back to China? I would think unlikely,

2) They become Vietnamese? highly likely and

3) do the indigenous people called them Hoas? I don't think so.

I assume the Hoas are Chinese who migrated there in the past century or so. Let me know if I'm wrong. Peace.

1. Only a few survived, they ran back to the land now known "China". Remember: they "ran back" to China, not "went back". It is totally defferent.

2. Most of them were killed. very small part of them survived, see 1 above.

3. Hoa are Chinese who fled Chinese civil wars in the centuries later. Not them.

 

[dunhill]

I assume the Hoas are Chinese who migrated there in the past century or so. Let me know if I'm wrong. Peace.

This the only thing I can answer you that Hoa's is Vietnamese-Chinese, and like it or not they are Vietnamese then no matter where were they came from.

Vietnamese-Chinese has well treated as Vietnamese citizen holder, and they are well protecting by Viet Nam laws. More than likely, Vietnamese-Chinese got free-pass for soldier enrollment or activities even though Viet Nam fight with China or not unless Vietnamese-Chinese who was loves volunteer as a soldier as any enforcers.

 

[Fanling Monk]

This the only thing I can answer you that Hoa's is Vietnamese-Chinese, and like it or not they are Vietnamese then no matter where were they came from.

Vietnamese-Chinese has well treated as Vietnamese citizen holder, and they are well protecting by Viet Nam laws. More than likely, Vietnamese-Chinese got free-pass for soldier enrollment or activities even though Viet Nam fight with China or not unless Vietnamese-Chinese who was loves volunteer as a soldier as any enforcers.

I'm sure they're treated as well as any other ethnic group in Vietnam now a days the same way we treat the Gins as Chinese. Is your second part mean the Hoas are exempt from military service? If so why or other minority groups are also exempt too? I don't want to put you in a difficult situation so if you don't want you don't have to answer me.

1. Only a few survived, they ran back to the land now known "China". Remember: they "ran back" to China, not "went back". It is totally defferent.

2. Most of them were killed. very small part of them survived, see 1 above.

3. Hoa are Chinese who fled Chinese civil wars in the centuries later. Not them.

So the descendants of Zhao Tuo 趙佗 were all killed too?

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

So the descendants of Zhao Tuo 趙佗 were all killed too?

According to an official history book wrote by Vietnamese feudal dynasties, Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư (Complete Annals of Đại Việt):

From Kinh Dương Vương founded the country Văn Lang with 18 reigns of Hùng King, until 258 BC, total 2622 years (2879 - 258BC).

In 257 BC, An Dương Vương throne, changing national name became Âu Lạc country. An Dương Vương king ruled Âu Lạc until 208 BC, then Âu Lạc was invaded by Zhao Tuo 趙佗 in 207 BC, then Âu Lạc was annexed to Nanyue [a country in a part of Han's land]

So before Âu Lạc was invaded by a Han named Zhao Tuo 趙佗 , Văn Lang, then name Âu Lạc already existed 2672 years [2879 - 208 BC].

So, Zhao Tuo [and his descendants] were regarded as the Han invaders, sooner or later they would be defeated and killed by the Vietnamese. That does not change for thousands of years, until today.

This the only thing I can answer you that Hoa's is Vietnamese-Chinese, and like it or not they are Vietnamese then no matter where were they came from.

Vietnamese-Chinese has well treated as Vietnamese citizen holder, and they are well protecting by Viet Nam laws. More than likely, Vietnamese-Chinese got free-pass for soldier enrollment or activities even though Viet Nam fight with China or not unless Vietnamese-Chinese who was loves volunteer as a soldier as any enforcers.

I dont understand who are "Vietnamese-Chinese"? Please explain more clearly,

 

[gpit]

This book is written by Le Tac, his ancestor was Chinese came to Vietnam as refugee. In the war Viet against Yuan enemy invasion he ran back to China, betrayed the country had given his ancestor chance to alive. In his book he copied it from chronicle book of Han Chinese, lied about the uprising of Trung Nu Vuong and his husband. It's mentality of chinese traitor.
When Mao and his comrades went to Ting Cang San, KMT' propaganda considered Mao was rebel, robber.

LOL!

Your internet Vietnamese are funny! Always want to deny your history and glorify stuff never existed. In comparison, the Chinese are different. In their history, they condemned their emperors, criticized wrong policies... they believed if the "son of heaven" did wrong, he lost the "mandate of Heaven" and needed be replaced.

Now how about 吴士连, the author of 《大越史记全书》? Was he also a traitor?

Based on 《大越史记全书》, the story is similar:

征女王纪

征王在位三年。王甚雄勇，逐苏定，建国称王。然以女主，不能成再造之功。

讳侧姓征，本姓雒。峰州麋冷县雒将之女，朱鸢县诗索之妻也。（诗索亦雒将子。两家子相为婚姻，纲目集览，以雒为姓误矣。）都麋冷（麋音縻）。庚子元年，汉建武十六年春二月，王苦太守苏定绳以法。及雠定之杀其夫，乃与其妹贰举兵攻陷州治。定奔还。南海、九真、日南、合浦皆应之，略定岭南六十五城，自立为王，始称征姓焉。

辛丑二年，汉建武十七年春二月，晦，日食。

汉以征氏称王，举兵攻陷城邑，边郡苦之。乃命长沙、合浦及我交州，具车船，修桥道，通障溪，储粮谷，拜马援为伏波将军，以扶乐侯刘隆为副来侵。 壬寅三年，汉建武十八年春正月，马援沿海而进，随山刊道千余里，至浪泊上，（罗城西街之西名浪泊）与王战。王见虏(世&#21147大张，自度乌合之众恐不能支，退保禁溪（史作金溪）。众亦以王女子，虑不能敌，遂走散。国统复绝。

...

癸卯四年，汉建武春正月十九年，征女王及其妹贰与汉拒战，势孤，遂皆陷没。马援追击其众都阳等，至居封县降之。乃立铜柱为汉极界。（铜柱相传在钦州古洞上。援有誓云：“铜柱折，交州灭我。”每以石培之，遂成丘陵，恐其折也。唐马总又建二铜柱于汉，以为伏波之裔，今未详所在。左右二江合有其一。）援以西于县有户三万三千，因请分为封溪、望海二县。汉帝从之。援又筑玺江城于封溪。其城圆如玺，故以为名。我越遂属于汉

...

http://wenku.baidu.com/view/55912e4569eae009581beca5.html

I am not going to judge whether those two ladies around the age of 50 were good or bad. I am just tell you: based on history books, they were defeated, lost, and killed by their enemies.

Even 吴士连 of your Vietnamese believed she was a female and could do nothing (然以女主，不能成再造之功&#12290 and that she also believed that her followers were just a herd of mobs or motley crowd (乌合之&#20247 from 王见虏(世&#21147大张，自度乌合之众恐不能支 (the King found the strength of the enemy, and feared her own motley crowd wouldn't last).

I'm telling you guys, it could well be that the Chinese treated you unfairly in history from time to time. In fact, most of the time the Chinese rulers treated their own people unfairly in history as well per today's standards. But if your communist authorities attempt to inflame racial hatred for their personal gains by twisting history, your ordinary people have to be wise enough to guard for your own interests.

Read more history of your own, for your own! Stop believing your authorities every thing they say, use you independent judgment...

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I’d like to add couple.

Based on your history, if there were no Trưng Trắc (徵 &#20596 and Trưng Nhị (徵 &#36019, Vietnam could reserve its independence. This is based from the sentence: “我越遂属于汉”, meaning “my Viet therefore belongs to Han”.

Think twice before challenging China with violence.