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Featured Anatolian Eagle 2021 - JF-17 To Pitch Against Rafale and Vipers

That is very unlikely and may not have happened either. The Rafale is a beast and may have run circles around the JF - there may be kills recorded in BVR by the JF but it really is down to specific scenarios. Unless there were some really novice Qatari pilots flying the Rafale - 1v1 against a Rafale flown by a competent pilot the JF-17 has a very low chance of success.
I'd add that (in South Asia) the PAF would probably try avoiding a WVR scenario, especially with the Rafale. It would want to mitigate the Rafale risk at BVR, and if the fight with the Rafale enters WVR, then the BVR didn't work as it should have (there could be many reasons for that issue, e.g., misexecution).

I think the PAF sees itself as a holistic force now, so the individual platform doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things; rather, the PAF wants to see how its entire system/stack performs against threats. The JF-17 doing well against the Rafale isn't the point, especially in controlled environments like exercises.
 
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I'd add that (in South Asia) the PAF would probably try avoiding a WVR scenario, especially with the Rafale. It would want to mitigate the Rafale risk at BVR, and if the fight with the Rafale enters WVR, then the BVR didn't work as it should have (there could be many reasons for that issue, e.g., misexecution).

I think the PAF sees itself as a holistic force now, so the individual platform doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things; rather, the PAF wants to see how its entire system/stack performs against threats. The JF-17 doing well against the Rafale isn't the point, especially in controlled environments like exercises.
In a way the IAF may have been early adopters of BVR through their floggers but it is the PAF (hopefully none of jinx this as is tradition) really took it in stride to learn best practices from the USAF, RAF & TuAF(and IDF via these forces). The MKi with its added TVC weight is fighting into a bygone era. This is the era of connected assets and transonic acceleration to lob the javelins(BVR) with enough energy to score a kill. It is the era of rapidly accelerating and high maneuvering missiles that need a look to shoot and then run. What the MKi still brings is payload but if it is constantly outranged then when does it get to bear its weapons? It can carry 8 R-77s or the I-Derby or Astra(whatever comes of it) and the 120C, PL-12 and the Pl-15 will continue to outrange it.

Will there be no more WvR? That’s highly unlikely and aircraft will merge, but when they do its never alone. The Tejas tested the Python 5, its going to slaughter the JF-17 unless the PL-10 is introduced. Lets say the both have it and merge - it will matter who carries more countermeasures to pump out like a fireworks show and whoever survives it then has to stay out of the weapons engagement zone of the other. Not just determined by off boresight capabilities but also by the form,weight and display of the helmet along with the physical fitness and alertness of the pilot who has to bear and move it under G’s.

In a nutshell, WVR is happening but is no longer the game of furballs but short turns and burns to get weapons on target. If the pilot has to end up using guns then he’s already put himself in a disadvantage by not utilizing his weapons to the best of their WEZ.

Not to mention, in all of this there are wingmen and other aircraft who have equal or better opportunity to shoot those engaged.

All of this precludes them even merging after surviving a BVR fight.

Indians are lost in their own superiority delusions and buying power to try and get whatever they want and from different sources. Instead of thinking how they will merge different sources from western and eastern suppliers their integration was leading to mfd’s shutting off mid-flight and waiting on the French to send in consultants. That happened to the JF too, except the consultants were the same engineers that helped design it so the fix took a week compared to the months on the Indian side.

If PAF had the resources the IAF had, they would wipe the floor with the IAF in a reverse 26th Feb and 27th Scenario. Not because the PAF human is superior or martial - but because they still have the humility (Alhamdulillah) to listen to training with USAF, RAF and other higher technology/tactics forces. Ask any US military trainer what their experience is with an Indian officer and a Pakistani one - the Indian thinks they are gods gift to earth while the Pakistani listens. The irony of it is that it is flipped on the civilian and private sector - the Pakistani thinks they are gods gift to earth while the Indian works hard and listens.
 
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In a way the IAF may have been early adopters of BVR through their floggers but it is the PAF (hopefully none of jinx this as is tradition) really took it in stride to learn best practices from the USAF, RAF & TuAF(and IDF via these forces). The MKi with its added TVC weight is fighting into a bygone era. This is the era of connected assets and transonic acceleration to lob the javelins(BVR) with enough energy to score a kill. It is the era of rapidly accelerating and high maneuvering missiles that need a look to shoot and then run. What the MKi still brings is payload but if it is constantly outranged then when does it get to bear its weapons? It can carry 8 R-77s or the I-Derby or Astra(whatever comes of it) and the 120C, PL-12 and the Pl-15 will continue to outrange it.

Will there be no more WvR? That’s highly unlikely and aircraft will merge, but when they do its never alone. The Tejas tested the Python 5, its going to slaughter the JF-17 unless the PL-10 is introduced. Lets say the both have it and merge - it will matter who carries more countermeasures to pump out like a fireworks show and whoever survives it then has to stay out of the weapons engagement zone of the other. Not just determined by off boresight capabilities but also by the form,weight and display of the helmet along with the physical fitness and alertness of the pilot who has to bear and move it under G’s.

In a nutshell, WVR is happening but is no longer the game of furballs but short turns and burns to get weapons on target. If the pilot has to end up using guns then he’s already put himself in a disadvantage by not utilizing his weapons to the best of their WEZ.

Not to mention, in all of this there are wingmen and other aircraft who have equal or better opportunity to shoot those engaged.

All of this precludes them even merging after surviving a BVR fight.

Indians are lost in their own superiority delusions and buying power to try and get whatever they want and from different sources. Instead of thinking how they will merge different sources from western and eastern suppliers their integration was leading to mfd’s shutting off mid-flight and waiting on the French to send in consultants. That happened to the JF too, except the consultants were the same engineers that helped design it so the fix took a week compared to the months on the Indian side.

If PAF had the resources the IAF had, they would wipe the floor with the IAF in a reverse 26th Feb and 27th Scenario. Not because the PAF human is superior or martial - but because they still have the humility (Alhamdulillah) to listen to training with USAF, RAF and other higher technology/tactics forces. Ask any US military trainer what their experience is with an Indian officer and a Pakistani one - the Indian thinks they are gods gift to earth while the Pakistani listens. The irony of it is that it is flipped on the civilian and private sector - the Pakistani thinks they are gods gift to earth while the Indian works hard and listens.

The bolded part can you explain what happened to the JF?
 
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In a way the IAF may have been early adopters of BVR through their floggers but it is the PAF (hopefully none of jinx this as is tradition) really took it in stride to learn best practices from the USAF, RAF & TuAF(and IDF via these forces). The MKi with its added TVC weight is fighting into a bygone era. This is the era of connected assets and transonic acceleration to lob the javelins(BVR) with enough energy to score a kill. It is the era of rapidly accelerating and high maneuvering missiles that need a look to shoot and then run. What the MKi still brings is payload but if it is constantly outranged then when does it get to bear its weapons? It can carry 8 R-77s or the I-Derby or Astra(whatever comes of it) and the 120C, PL-12 and the Pl-15 will continue to outrange it.

Will there be no more WvR? That’s highly unlikely and aircraft will merge, but when they do its never alone. The Tejas tested the Python 5, its going to slaughter the JF-17 unless the PL-10 is introduced. Lets say the both have it and merge - it will matter who carries more countermeasures to pump out like a fireworks show and whoever survives it then has to stay out of the weapons engagement zone of the other. Not just determined by off boresight capabilities but also by the form,weight and display of the helmet along with the physical fitness and alertness of the pilot who has to bear and move it under G’s.

In a nutshell, WVR is happening but is no longer the game of furballs but short turns and burns to get weapons on target. If the pilot has to end up using guns then he’s already put himself in a disadvantage by not utilizing his weapons to the best of their WEZ.

Not to mention, in all of this there are wingmen and other aircraft who have equal or better opportunity to shoot those engaged.

All of this precludes them even merging after surviving a BVR fight.

Indians are lost in their own superiority delusions and buying power to try and get whatever they want and from different sources. Instead of thinking how they will merge different sources from western and eastern suppliers their integration was leading to mfd’s shutting off mid-flight and waiting on the French to send in consultants. That happened to the JF too, except the consultants were the same engineers that helped design it so the fix took a week compared to the months on the Indian side.

If PAF had the resources the IAF had, they would wipe the floor with the IAF in a reverse 26th Feb and 27th Scenario. Not because the PAF human is superior or martial - but because they still have the humility (Alhamdulillah) to listen to training with USAF, RAF and other higher technology/tactics forces. Ask any US military trainer what their experience is with an Indian officer and a Pakistani one - the Indian thinks they are gods gift to earth while the Pakistani listens. The irony of it is that it is flipped on the civilian and private sector - the Pakistani thinks they are gods gift to earth while the Indian works hard and listens.
I agree. On top of that, there are a couple of areas observers won't be able to focus on at all, but are also very important: ECM. The PAF clearly understood its value when the US initially held back on it for the F-16s. But when it comes to the JF-17, the PAF built a robust network of input suppliers and a capacity for threat library building (with ELINT assets spread across the tri-services, including the PN, to help).

In fact, even though the Block-IIIs are getting integrated ECM, I'd say the Block-Is and Block-IIs are bigger ECM threats. They may not have integrated ECM, but (in theory) the PAF can swap different types of ECM pods.

There's a rumour the PAF using an Indra ECM stack, but having been to IDEAS 2018, the PAF was free to pick-up ITAR-free options from Italy, UK, Belarus, and Germany. On top of COTS ITAR hardware, you have a lot of in-house proprietary stacks building upon it, and then a focused operational drive to enhance it.
 
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That is very unlikely and may not have happened either. The Rafale is a beast and may have run circles around the JF - there may be kills recorded in BVR by the JF but it really is down to specific scenarios. Unless there were some really novice Qatari pilots flying the Rafale - 1v1 against a Rafale flown by a competent pilot the JF-17 has a very low chance of success.
are you saying Rafael is good in consistent turn rates and can take over JF17? also, are we talking about at low altitude or high altitude?
 
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Hindu-stanis these days:

PAF in an exercise against RAFALES = No problem, nothing can be learned, those RAFALES are not the same as our RAFALES.

IAF exercises with Singapore F-16 = We learned and we know each and every scratch on each blade in the engine.
 
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are you saying Rafael is good in consistent turn rates and can take over JF17? also, are we talking about at low altitude or high altitude?
Generally both - the Rafale’s known instantaneous and sustained rate both outdo the JF-17 (by a small but available margin on sustained) upto 25k feet.
 
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Generally both - the Rafale’s known instantaneous and sustained rate both outdo the JF-17 (by a small but available margin on sustained) upto 25k feet.
Is the sustain turn rate is still a debate with upcoming HMD/S the HOBS within-visual-range air-to-air missile will just look and shoot no crazy g maneuvers
 
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Generally both - the Rafale’s known instantaneous and sustained rate both outdo the JF-17 (by a small but available margin on sustained) upto 25k feet.
Rafale F3R's STR is 27 degree/ sec, Block-1 n 2's is 26 degree/sec {or atleast aoa is}. Block-3's more then 27.
 
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Is the sustain turn rate is still a debate with upcoming HMD/S the HOBS within-visual-range air-to-air missile will just look and shoot no crazy g maneuvers
It will continue to be a debate since it also impacts ability to notch and crank faster in BVR combat.
 
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