Featured Analyzing misconceptions about Pakistan Armed Forces - Objectively

[Psychic]

ISSB system needs an update. Too many military brats are making it through as compared to civilian candidates.

Majority of those who take coaching before appearing for ISSB also get selected. That calls into question the quality of the selection process.

 

[Psychic]

it is easy to say buy voluntarily putting your life on line to protect the country the ideals is altogether a different thing.

That is in their job description. A career that they willingly took and a career which offers a lot more growth potential than civilian careers. They are expected to risk their all when ordered and that is what their salary and other perks are for. The nation respects the shaheeds but elevating the military to demigod status just for doing their job is something which must be avoided at all costs. No person or institution must be above criticism.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

ISSB system needs an update. Too many military brats are making it through as compared to civilian candidates.

yes. academies should be shut down. Why allow rich to cheat by training in acting like someone who they aren't.

 

[WarKa DaNG]

You people wont believe but a friend of mine got recommended from ISSB, got called back and after giving interview was Not Recommended, later we got informed that his father (a 2-star general at that time) lobbied to Not Recommend him and forced him to do MBBS

 

[peagle]

@SQ8 , @blain2 , @PanzerKiel , @ARMalik , @R Wing , @PakFactor , @The Eagle , @waz

Mods would please appreciate if this thread is spared from junk.

Often I come across terms like “Low IQed”, “Parrots – tottay” , “Yes sir Brigade”, “Jaahil – Ignorant”, “Matric Pass” for our Armed forces, picking up motivation from a thread here I thought to analyse these terms in a more objective way instead of the usual “fatwa brigade” mentality we are so fond of.

I want this article to be a rational attempt at analyzing things rather than the garbage of ignorant opinionated views. I am using English as simple as I can so that most of the people can benefit, and not trying to impress anyone with my prowess of English vocabulary, thus I seek apology from more learned people over a certain degree of Colloquialism. This thread will also appear on my blog.

https://historiananalyst.wordpress.com

First the necessary I am not an Armed forces officer serving or retired, I am not attached to any institution linked directly or indirectly to Armed forces of Pakistan, and I am not paid by anyone to write this analysis frankly very few can really afford my cost. I was selected in one of the forces as a potential officer candidate, joined the academy but mid-way left due to my own reasons without any bad feelings for that service or the service had/has any bad feeling or disciplinary charges against me. Every effort was made to dissuade me from leaving the service. I spend a major part of my life education and profession abroad (about two decades and change) and that has given me the perspective to appreciate our forces. My family has strong ties to armed forces but that’s it.

So now distribution of talent in any society marks the growth or development of that particular segment where most of the talent is directed and it is different for different countries.

For decades Pakistani talent has been directed primarily at Armed forces, except that someone inherently doesn’t want to join armed forces due to one reason or the other or for medical reasons very other young man give armed forces a try some ISSB and some the rank, some try a short commission after education. Practically millions of young men go to the recruitment and selection centers of Armed forces, I will be using Army as the prime example, be it the ranks or be it the officers the selection criteria is pretty tough. For officer preliminary test, the physical test, then medical these are three different filters and finally approximately 100,000 candidates enter ISSB (my figures may be bit off but gist remains) out of those only few hundred make it to all three services not even a thousand at any given point in time. Oh did I forget the background check… many a shining people are filtered out due to that very check. ISSB (though I have my reservations about modernizing the criteria) has served the forces well.

Nut shell with the exception of few most of youth talent takes an attempt to join forces, just like any good institution Harvard, Yale, Stanford etc the effort is to make sure that all selected are almost at par with each other in IQ, not out of ordinaries on both sides. So actually pretty much the cream of the nation joins Armed forces. Strangely the lowest bottom of the talent joins either religious fraternity or teaching profession, yes I know PhD and universities etc but the school level where the talent is nurtured we have a major problem, like the religious fraternity.

Now I am picking up bits and pieces from another thread which I wrote.

Now for the low IQ among officers we the class fellows/batch mates have discussed this matter for over a decade, one of us was at a key position in ISSB and we discussed why average intelligence of Officers is dropping and he was pretty opinionated about his statement "officers are a product of our educational system if you see a deterioration in the intelligence this means your education system is deteriorating"

How in Gods name education system will improve when we are sending the lowest among our talent pool as the ones who are supposed to nurture our future talent, seems a bit odd.
ISSB is not a joke, it is meant to evaluate who you are, are you capable of motivating and leading the men put under your charge will you be able to take care of them. You cannot beat it some of the finest people are there to evaluate candidates, yes there is a degree of nepotism, influential do influence selection of their kin but if they are not capable enough you will see them retiring soon.

I know my school and college one of the most talented pool of students in one batch that I ever came across. I know 90% of my school fellows and almost all of my college fellows applied for forces as commissioned officers, school batch was about 60 and college was about 80. Only 1 made to PAF GDP (I think about 10 went for ISSB), 4 including me joined PN (I left half way through my training) and about 3 more joined after B.Sc, with the exception of 2 all have retired both serving are flag rank, 10 made it to PA, I think couple more joined later with the exception of 3 all have retired, all 3 as flag rank officers. Hope the readers get the picture. My batch in school and college was one of the extra ordinary one the number of positions in Matric and FSc board from my batch is a testament of that, we were not given 95% like today the marking was very strict that time and yet.

Now herein is another very interesting fact, over the years I have come to realize why some people hate the forces so much and have categorized them as follows:
• Rejected by ISSB twice
• Belonging to families who despite holding Pakistani credentials are not Pakistanis at heart
• Influenced by Media channels like Jew News/Geo news, and Daily G*y/ Daily Dawn
• Good at heart people who think they know the grey areas in forces and yet don’t know the real armed forces.
• Drummed out of Armed Forces due to “conduct unbecoming of officer” or other disciplinary charges

Three of our class fellows who are vehemently opposing Armed forces these day incidentally were rejected by ISSB twice one is also influenced by mullahs, one worked for G*y Media Group/dawn Media Group and the third one well let’s just say many of us class fellows have been supporting him and his family throughout his life. These three gentlemen find everything in Pakistan going wrong due to Armed Forces for obvious reasons. Yeah two of our batch mates were drummed out from PN for reason (5) one of them is a senior banker and the other a businessman. Businessman is Ok with his life but the banker is vehemently against Forces strange ain’t it.

So the growth of Forces Institutions apart from their ability to Arm twist may also be due to the fact that most of the talented gentlemen of the country end up here and they are damn loyal to their institution as compared to many of the rest gentlemen.

So far I have only able to address the IQ part, hopefully.

Now the next 2 parts. i.e; “Parrots – tottay”, “Yes sir Brigade”

We have to understand what the purpose of forces is and what they are required to do.
Purpose is simple defense/offense and weeding out all shrubs posing a danger to the country they are sworn to protect. Another point that is used that somehow in the forces no one questions an order, I only smile at that. I am sure the professionals of Armed Forces across the globe would do too.

In the states and even Pak forces it is a well-established fact that forces are not run by the officers but the JCOs. Weaker the officer stronger the JCO or any other combination, senior JCO is always involved in company level decisions, good officers listen to their JCO. The reason Yes sir culture is necessary is not due to British DNA, but the necessity that if the ranks develop the habit of questioning their officer this could lead to serious problem in engagements. Any input if required from JCO is most of the time at the planning stage after that its execution. Those who know Pak forces culture they know all too well that all field officer are very independent when it comes to tactical decision necessitated by circumstances when compared to our eastern people. People have no idea what happens in the meetings of formation commanders or Corps commanders.

If we develop the culture of second guessing orders of officer we are looking at disaster beyond repair, what would happen if a subordinate questions the order of a senior to take out an enemy sniper who is in a position to take out their entire company, or what would happened when the subordinate refuses to fire at enemy at a critical time?

Pakistan Army is different from US Army, which is a no questions asked army they have to do marketing campaigns in order to attract people, criminals, drug traffickers, rapist, sociopaths psychopaths are a norm in their forces. We, we have no shortage of volunteers. Pakistan forces spend a considerable amount of money just to ensure the background checking of all potential soldier. Of course there are bound to be errors but the system is pretty robust and all errors are corrected through drumming out and early retirements, may be a court martial as well.

No Armed force in the world could afford subordinates second guessing orders, orders are to be carried out without question. Besides is our civil life any different? I have seen supervisors screw the career of subordinates who questions them, it just a hypocrisy that well our subordinates must be yes men in civil life but uniformed people must be second guessing their officers.

Now for the other part “Jaahil – Ignorant”, “Matric Pass”, from what I think the “Matric Pass” officers of JCC/JCB are almost gone if not then in the next 10 years there will no more be any officer who joined through JCC or JCB it is now F.Sc/F.A. Moreover, a fuaji doesn’t require a degree to fire a gun what he requires is training, muscle memory, physical conditioning, evaluation of circumstance, account of resources, leading the people to achieve target within the available resources.

Let me quote my two friends both flag rank officers in PA. “A**** convinced me to join PA because we didn’t want to study more, so we applied and joined P.A little did we know that throughout our career most of time we will only be studying, now when I look back I don’t regret but had I known that its study that I will be doing through my professional life I may not have joined P.A”

Indoctrination in Pakistani Armed forces is beyond belief, in the most dangerous of tasks most of the time it is voluntary and never has there been a mission where there was a shortage of volunteers. Even if it means going out in a radiation zone or protecting an area where Pakistan is going to Test it nukes with less than 50% survival chances, it is easy to say buy voluntarily putting your life on line to protect the country the ideals is altogether a different thing.

No one asks a doctor how many degrees he has, all he must have is a good diagnosis ability, good manners and good prescription so by that virtue I think we have very good and capable armed forces, despite the lack of resources and internal traitors.

I have my questions about few practices in the forces like elevation to flag rank, forces know each and every thing about their officers so how come people like Zia, beg, musharraf and kiani and many other made it to flag rank that is something which requires serious rework. US forces utilize the services of subject matter experts extensively from the civilian side and they are given utmost respect, however here the officers consider themselves all-knowing and thus fail to learn from civilian subject matter experts and are never trained to extend respect to anyone other than a senior or uniformed person, there is another but this is not the forum so in my opinion these things need rework along some fresh perspectives.

Otherwise we have a pretty robust and talented pool in our forces both at officers and JCOs level.

Once we make a house and a window is found to be out of place we don’t tear down the whole house, we change the area which requires improvement, I know Armed forces have grey areas but we cannot go out and change the entire setup. History is full of incidents where a set order was disturbed and the results were anything but good.

Humanity is all about evolution our forces too are evolving some of the lessons our forces have learned in the last few decades which resulted in hard lessons and future course of action are there will never be a 71, we will never be caught with our pants down, civilian rulers no matter how good will never be allowed to cause another Indus water or Kargil, Shareef Family will never again be allowed to oust any COAS even if it means to have Musharraf as COAS and Pakistan forces will never ever again take part in any one else’s war.
I have done this piece in about two hours so errors and omission are regretted, I now have to drive to the farm house for weekend.

Although I disagree with the "civilians vs uniform" aspect, especially at the end. We need to start behaving like we are one, which we are, the things we complain about also exist in most other countries and democracies. We have a habit of making an issue out of things and then keeping it alive in our mindset.

Obama could not withdraw, because the military was dead against any backtracking, Trump only has just managed because the military is just getting embarrassed, Kennedy was lied to about the Bay of Pig fiasco, Indian military spoiled so many peace discussions between Pakistan and India when you start dissecting, the list is endless, no one makes a big issue there and keeps it alive perpetually in their thought process. We have to start doing the same. Institutions clash, but then you learn and move on.

Other than that, thank you so much, it was a pleasure reading your thoughts, and very gratifying. It exposed me to a line of thinking I was not aware of, especially on military matters. Stay blessed.

 

[PakFactor]

You people wont believe but a friend of mine got recommended from ISSB, got called back and after giving interview was Not Recommended, later we got informed that his father (a 2-star general at that time) lobbied to Not Recommend him and forced him to do MBBS

Thats a very cruel thing to do. What was the fathers motivation for this money? His son makes more etc

 

[blain2]

I personally know one of my friend whose father was a retired major and had two brothers serving in the army. One was at the rank of Lieutenant colonel too. But despite that the poor guy failed to pass ISSB twice and had to do BS in computer science

My father's course mate, Brig Muneeb-ur-Rehman Farooqi was the head of the ISSB in the late 80s. I specifically talked to him about the selection process and his thoughts were there is no preference for anyone joining from a military family. I am sure if someone specifically leveraged references, it would lead to a more preferential outcome for the applicant. However, in general, a civilian or a child of a serving/retired officer gets the same chance.

This is proven by the fact that the vast majority of the officers in the armed forces are first generation military officers.

The second point that I'd like to bring to attention is that in the early years of partition, the armed forces used to recruit from public/private institutions in much larger proportions. Since the founding of many Cadet Colleges/Schools and preparatory feeder formations like Junior Cadets Battalion (JCB) [which eventually moved into a separate facility away from Kakul (in Jehlum eventually if I recall correctly, and then was disbanded and facility handed over to JLA - Junior Leaders Academy, for the NCO/JCO training)], the intake from civilian public/professional schools and colleges suffered.
The same goes for the PAF and PN with institutions like PAF College Sargodha and others.

In my view, with these feeder institutions the services get a cadet who is pre-moulded to the expectations of discipline, drill and the basics, but the military is missing out in terms of originality of thought and independence that the public and private schools allow in bigger cities of Pakistan.

There are pros and cons of both but I think a more optimal balance would help (open disclosure, I do not have access to the latest statistics on the recruitment profiles) with the changing demands of the job i.e. more technology centric and technical across the three services.

 

[blain2]

Thats a very cruel thing to do. What was the fathers motivation for this money? His son makes more etc

It's not about the money. Most people on the outside don't realize this but military life is hard on families and careers of those that make up the nuclear family. With 90% of the officers retiring from service with a field-rank (Capt - Lt Col), there are countless other considerations. What if the spouse is a professional? How much displacement do you want the family to go through. Situation with increasingly aging parents, etc. etc.

As such, beyond the outer sheen, there is the "khwuaari" of the job (this applies to each and every profession) but some people become jaded by it.

Secondly, for most families with a tradition of military service, a certain amount of fatigue sets in with the lifestyle (personal experience) and you don't want to perpetuate that. This is why many officers want their children to do other things besides the fauji career. Add the characters that one runs across on occasions (including jaded seniors/CO's/OCs) in service and it makes for an interesting recipe.

On the lighter side, I could not put it any better than this about how most feel about serving:

 

[Rafi]

You are quite arrogant to start with.

I salute our armed forces and have many family members in the forces. I do think that Pakistani military should have nothing to do with civilian matters. It is a state within a state. I mean fauhi foindation fauji cereals. Give me a break. Raheel shareef serving in Saudi Arabia. Wow is that not a security risk. Ever seen this happening anywhere else in the world?
Oh by the way I was rejected by ISSB and I thank god every day of my life. I would have wasted my life sating yes sir to equally dumb seniors. Rather than being posted at some S hole, thank god I was able to progress 100 times more. Thank god I didn't waste my life saying yes sir like a dumbo

Generals in pak army are corrupt, the real heroes are low rank officers

Where in the world do generals get acres upon acres of free agri land. Give me a break

Indian

 

[mingle]

You are quite arrogant to start with.

I salute our armed forces and have many family members in the forces. I do think that Pakistani military should have nothing to do with civilian matters. It is a state within a state. I mean fauhi foindation fauji cereals. Give me a break. Raheel shareef serving in Saudi Arabia. Wow is that not a security risk. Ever seen this happening anywhere else in the world?
Oh by the way I was rejected by ISSB and I thank god every day of my life. I would have wasted my life sating yes sir to equally dumb seniors. Rather than being posted at some S hole, thank god I was able to progress 100 times more. Thank god I didn't waste my life saying yes sir like a dumbo

Generals in pak army are corrupt, the real heroes are low rank officers

Where in the world do generals get acres upon acres of free agri land. Give me a break

Explain me how Generals are corrupt??

 

[mingle]

Indian

100%

 

[mingle]

yes. academies should be shut down. Why allow rich to cheat by training in acting like someone who they aren't.

But if there is no academy the civilian can't compete with kid from cadet college which coached before ISSB?

 

[PakFactor]

@ps3linux @PanzerKiel

Give me 1-2 days to finish up some business plans and I will respond to this thread properly.

 

[ps3linux]

Although I disagree with the "civilians vs uniform" aspect, especially at the end. We need to start behaving like we are one, which we are, the things we complain about also exist in most other countries and democracies. We have a habit of making an issue out of things and then keeping it alive in our mindset.

Sir jee my attempt and intention of sharing here (although I dont get a trophy for my efforts and time) I'd rather share my thoughts in my peers which are definitely uniformed, but the purpose is to address the misconceptions.

While I don't subscribe to Jew Tv/Geo Tv or Daily G*y/Daily Dawn version of civilian/army rift but it cannot be denied totally and people like Zia and Musharraf only widened the rift.

I do not want to say more on this I come from a fauji family, having exposure across forces I know the source of the problem but I will not discuss that on an open forum.

1) My father's course mate, Brig Muneeb-ur-Rehman Farooqi was the head of the ISSB in the late 80s. I specifically talked to him about the selection process and his thoughts were there is no preference for anyone joining from a military family. I am sure if someone specifically leveraged references, it would lead to a more preferential outcome for the applicant. However, in general, a civilian or a child of a serving/retired officer gets the same chance.

2) In my view, with these feeder institutions the services get a cadet who is pre-moulded to the expectations of discipline, drill and the basics, but the military is missing out in terms of originality of thought and independence that the public and private schools allow in bigger cities of Pakistan.

There are pros and cons of both but I think a more optimal balance would help (open disclosure, I do not have access to the latest statistics on the recruitment profiles) with the changing demands of the job i.e. more technology centric and technical across the three services.

1) Sir jee they don't get any preferential treatment however, a phone call to a course mate or a senior can relax the selection somewhat may be they can make an 18 scored as 20 but beyond that no, that is why many of the forces brats fail to qualify despite daddy dears call because they are too low on the selection criteria.

2) Rightly said there are pros and cons. When we come across obstinate and fixed ideas religious people we find them extremely irritating without realizing its not them, the problem is their mental conditioning a child enter a religious institution and for 8 to 10 years he is exposed to the conditioning of his teachers only, they are his world, mentors, idols he believes in their statements and defends them will all his power. Strangely some people find them "jaahil" for their fixed ideas and lack of flexibility. The way they look down on common people is appalling.

So a child entering a cadet college in class 8, three years and two for F.Sc two for academy and then the forces life, does he know anything about life outside the institution, and that is why you see people like Maj xxxxx, working as security in-charge of some Army Housing scheme.

Forces have their own ideas about it but not all ideas are right, particularly those which miss to factor in, ignored variables, very important variable.

It's not about the money. Most people on the outside don't realize this but military life is hard on families and careers of those that make up the nuclear family. With 90% of the officers retiring from service with a field-rank (Capt - Lt Col), there are countless other considerations. What if the spouse is a professional? How much displacement do you want the family to go through. Situation with increasingly aging parents, etc. etc.

As such, beyond the outer sheen, there is the "khwuaari" of the job (this applies to each and every profession) but some people become jaded by it.

Secondly, for most families with a tradition of military service, a certain amount of fatigue sets in with the lifestyle (personal experience) and you don't want to perpetuate that. This is why many officers want their children to do other things besides the fauji career. Add the characters that one runs across on occasions (including jaded seniors/CO's/OCs) in service and it makes for an interesting recipe.

On the lighter side, I could not put it any better than this about how most feel about serving:

People from outside do not know the stress on the life of a forces officer or his family. A family on continuous move transfers with a regular interval. Children cannot really connect with anyone because they know these friends are only for a short period of time.

Every transfer has its own challenges, finding a new residence in the new posting, housing is limited and many a times an officer has to go for rental house because the officer whose house is allocated to him will be moving his family after 6 months.

Every transfer results in damage to the furniture, I remember my parent kept the expensive furniture in our pindi home while they kept moving with a make do furniture, even then my mom used to complain with every transfer that their furniture was damaged during the transfer. Moving an entire household is a huge challenge, packing, shifting, unpacking, stetting up. Leaving old friends trying to keep in touch with them, trying to make new one, children admissions.

Not every officer is blessed with a large ancestral home, besides an officer is expected to portray a certain minimum level of lifestyle, one of the reason many of the faujis are hand to mouth but would still appear as generous toward their juniors.

Only now at-least APS has standardized the course work previously it was a challenge, children in new school used to find them at odds as the new school was way ahead in covering the course, for O levels etc it is still a huge challenge.

Problems are compounded when officer is posted at a place where family cannot be moved, family is worried sick about the well being of the officer and the officer the other way round.

Although Pak Forces are the top among all forces in the world who take care of the families of officers and jawans who loose their lives defending the country.
I had two class fellows in school who were the children of a Shaheed, both of them were extended extra ordinary care and respect.

There have been engagements in the past where our people became POW, and that is not something which is a happy memory. Our enemy doesn't have any ethics or character they have always violated Geneva accords.

Our struggle with insurgency in the last decade or so was testing, when an officer or a jawaan is lost due to insurgents or a roadside IED, it does not just impact him only it has a direct impact on the entire company/unit/regiment whatever, and when people like Munawwar Hussain/Mulla Fuzla, Jew Channel/Daily G*y ridicule our forces the general morale is not exactly "up to sky sir"

So if any officer going through all or any of the above tries to stop his children experiencing the same, he may not be wrong altogether.

 

[Enigma SIG]

You are quite arrogant to start with.

And then start off a rant to show you're the most arrogant person in the room. USA has a military industrial complex as well. Never saw people complaining about that. Oh and do you know how much land and business US Generals own?

Military spending: 20 companies profiting the most from war

Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Raytheon top list of companies profiting from war, according to highest weapons sales data reviewed by 24/7 Wall Street.

www.usatoday.com