Analysis: Pakistan's Interest in the Altay MBT

[Signalian]

AZ is basically an advance upgrade which you can provide to Type 59,69 Tanks. I wonder if such package can be applied on Type85 too...........as AZ2..........

T-85 III is already upgraded to its max. No need to invest further into it.

 

[Tipu7]

T-85 III is already upgraded to its max. No need to invest further into it.

I don't think so. It is often treated on same level as Type 59,69. Even AZ is considered a better tank compared to Type85II.
This is most ''secret'' tank in our arsenal. I have never seen a decent HD pic of it.
From old pics it is hard to accept that it is even upgraded once.

 

[Signalian]

wont the ak and the az be complemented by an entirely new platform. such as the altay,k2 type99 etc? well thats what zarvan said. also pakistan pruchased 285 type 55's from sebia i assume this will be upgraded to the az standard and inducted for reserve or as a stop gap.
so will pakistan be procuring a entirley new tank?

It's in Pakistan's own interest to manufacture own tanks even if technology is amalgamated from modern tanks like T-99A, Altay etc. Procuring a new tank requires support elements, simulator, training and most importantly, numbers.
It's always better to keep one type of tank and keep upgrading it like M1, Merkava etc. This gives a lot of flexibility in operational capability of tank as well as crew. It's better to keep upgrading Al-Khalid series.
In pakistan Army, tank crew is first trained on Type-59, then shift to either Al Zarrar or Al Khalid or T-80 UD or Type 85-III. That's 4 different types of tanks already, inducting a new tank even if it's Type-99A will force different crew types to train on yet another platform. Jack of all trades, master of none.

T-55 were from USSR in late 60's. They are in storage.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

So when would Pakistan Army gonna test this tank??? or it's still under development

 

[Signalian]

I don't think so. It is often treated on same level as Type 59,69. Even AZ is considered a better tank compared to Type85II.
This is most ''secret'' tank in our arsenal. I have never seen a decent HD pic of it.
From old pics it is hard to accept that it is even upgraded once.

Type-85 had many problems to begin with, especially engine trouble in hot weather. PA was looking for a tank to counter T-72 on short notice so inducted these mostly due to its 125mm gun with auto loader, later realising a better tank is required. PA got T-85 II, then further upgraded it to T-85 III standard.
It's not a secret tank. It's just a stop gap tank.
AZ is considered modern because it's firepower and protection has been strived to bring equal to that of Al Khalid tank.

 

[Blue Marlin]

It's in Pakistan's own interest to manufacture own tanks even if technology is amalgamated from modern tanks like T-99A, Altay etc. Procuring a new tank requires support elements, simulator, training and most importantly, numbers.
It's always better to keep one type of tank and keep upgrading it like M1, Merkava etc. This gives a lot of flexibility in operational capability of tank as well as crew. It's better to keep upgrading Al-Khalid series.
In pakistan Army, tank crew is first trained on Type-59, then shift to either Al Zarrar or Al Khalid or T-80 UD or Type 85-III. That's 4 different types of tanks already, inducting a new tank even if it's Type-99A will force different crew types to train on yet another platform. Jack of all trades, master of none.

T-55 were from USSR in late 60's. They are in storage.

i thought the az is based of the t55 and the current t55 in stock will be upgraded to az standard. the ak should be upgraded, hence the hunt for new parts. does anyone know if the current ak series has the SESM ESM500 transmition?

 

[Signalian]

i thought the az is based of the t55 and the current t55 in stock will be upgraded to az standard. the ak should be upgraded, hence the hunt for new parts.

You thought right.

T-55 ---> T-59 --> Al Zarrar

 

[Quwa]

wont the ak and the az be complemented by an entirely new platform. such as the altay,k2 type99 etc? well thats what zarvan said. also pakistan pruchased 285 type 55's from sebia i assume this will be upgraded to the az standard and inducted for reserve or as a stop gap.
so will pakistan be procuring a entirley new tank?

My understanding is that the mainstay, i.e majority, of the Armoured Corps will eventually be AZ and AK (not just AK, but its future versions as well). Haider (aka the other tank) is being sought to compliment the AK and AZ, exactly for what purpose I don't know, but if i could speculate, then it is to (1) strengthen areas where an Indian IBG is most likely to hit, (2) serve in Strike Corps in order to try and force India to concentrate (defensively), so it has less to spare elsewhere, and (3) diffuse new technology to the AK series, such as hard kill capable APS, new armour tech, etc.

 

[Blue Marlin]

My understanding is that the mainstay, i.e majority, of the Armoured Corps will eventually be AZ and AK (not just AK, but its future versions as well). Haider (aka the other tank) is being sought to compliment the AK and AZ, exactly for what purpose I don't know, but if i could speculate, then it is to (1) strengthen areas where an Indian IBG is most likely to hit, (2) serve in Strike Corps in order to try and force India to concentrate (defensively), so it has less to spare elsewhere, and (3) diffuse new technology to the AK series, such as hard kill capable APS, new armour tech, etc.

ok so what do you think the haider(the other tank) woud be?
what can pakistan realistically get based on size, capability and export strings?

the oplot-m was my favourite as it base is from the t80 which pakistan has but the situation in urkraine may cause concern.

the altay is a good tank but it has a german gun and engine, yes and turkish 1800hp engine is in development and so is a turkish gun. but its expensive and very big as compared to existing pakistani tanks. now i dont know about its capabilities on soft surfaces, and high temprature and high humidity enviroments. which is a deciding factor

the vt-4/mbt-3000: its a possibility but i was told it failed trials in pakistan early last year. i was not told why, but it (the enigne) was overheating.

the type 99a or possibly a varient of the type 99a- i dont know about this

the k2- now this is a tank i like it has near enought he same tech as the altay and it's 10 tonnes lighter too. the koreans are looking at pakistan as a market and im sure if pakistan did a similar deal like what turkey did by aquiring the technology which can be used on tanks which pakistan already has (ak,az) and can buy the k2 panther of the shelf as a tot agreement. or if the koreans are not keen on transfering the tech, turkey would be happy to fill in the void and can still buy of the shelf k2's

lepards-challanger 2-m1's-leclerc-ariete-t-14-type10 these are all out of the question. but friendly countries do have advanced tanks which may be willing to send a few to reverse engineer as a gesture of good will or for a good price.

 

[waz]

The engine is not a problem as the Turks are working on a good domestic design.

 

[madmusti]

The engine is not a problem as the Turks are working on a good domestic design.

The "Turks" even don´t believe that so called "domestic" design which are not exist !

 

[waz]

The "Turks" even don´t believe that so called "domestic" design which are not exist !

Turkish Firm To Produce Tank Engine

 

[Quwa]

ok so what do you think the haider(the other tank) woud be?
what can pakistan realistically get based on size, capability and export strings?

the oplot-m was my favourite as it base is from the t80 which pakistan has but the situation in urkraine may cause concern.

the altay is a good tank but it has a german gun and engine, yes and turkish 1800hp engine is in development and so is a turkish gun. but its expensive and very big as compared to existing pakistani tanks. now i dont know about its capabilities on soft surfaces, and high temprature and high humidity enviroments. which is a deciding factor

the vt-4/mbt-3000: its a possibility but i was told it failed trials in pakistan early last year. i was not told why, but it (the enigne) was overheating.

the type 99a or possibly a varient of the type 99a- i dont know about this

the k2- now this is a tank i like it has near enought he same tech as the altay and it's 10 tonnes lighter too. the koreans are looking at pakistan as a market and im sure if pakistan did a similar deal like what turkey did by aquiring the technology which can be used on tanks which pakistan already has (ak,az) and can buy the k2 panther of the shelf as a tot agreement. or if the koreans are not keen on transfering the tech, turkey would be happy to fill in the void and can still buy of the shelf k2's

lepards-challanger 2-m1's-leclerc-ariete-t-14-type10 these are all out of the question. but friendly countries do have advanced tanks which may be willing to send a few to reverse engineer as a gesture of good will or for a good price.

There is not much to add on top of what you've written, but if I could add something, it will depend on the margin of gain the new tank would have over the al-Khalid. If the margin is significant enough (relative to Pakistan's geographical realities), then I actually wonder how much of an impact price would have on the Army's decision. I am not saying price is going to be irrelevant, but the PA may be willing to acquire a stellar machine provided the payment and/or purchase terms (i.e. the minimum number one could buy in a batch).

That said, there are a number of problems with a non-Chinese tank: Support. I'll be honest, it may not be worth going for either Altay or K2 if neither vendor is willing to part with sensitive technology, which in turn could go into al-Khalid. If one could get new armour, electronics, propulsion and active protection technology from either one of these tanks, then taking the risk for relatively few risk-prone units may be worth it if in return we can one day field 1000+ al-Khalid III and IV with that technology. IP issues could be a problem, but then again, we can ask Turkey and South Korea to infuse an offset into our private defence industry, which could then support our armed forces. That may add a layer between the technology and whatever risks they perceive from China.

 

[Zarvan]

There is not much to add on top of what you've written, but if I could add something, it will depend on the margin of gain the new tank would have over the al-Khalid. If the margin is significant enough (relative to Pakistan's geographical realities), then I actually wonder how much of an impact price would have on the Army's decision. I am not saying price is going to be irrelevant, but the PA may be willing to acquire a stellar machine provided the payment and/or purchase terms (i.e. the minimum number one could buy in a batch).

That said, there are a number of problems with a non-Chinese tank: Support. I'll be honest, it may not be worth going for either Altay or K2 if neither vendor is willing to part with sensitive technology, which in turn could go into al-Khalid. If one could get new armour, electronics, propulsion and active protection technology from either one of these tanks, then taking the risk for relatively few risk-prone units may be worth it if in return we can one day field 1000+ al-Khalid III and IV with that technology. IP issues could be a problem, but then again, we can ask Turkey and South Korea to infuse an offset into our private defence industry, which could then support our armed forces. That may add a layer between the technology and whatever risks they perceive from China.

Turkey won't hesitate sharing technology but if Pakistan goes for Altay than it would be K2 version not Altay used by Turkey and 400 of these beasts in our Arsenal will be nightmare for India. As for AK 2 Pakistan should produce it exactly like Turkey has done with its Leopard Tank

 

[XILLAX]

Turkey won't hesitate sharing technology but if Pakistan goes for Altay than it would be K2 version not Altay used by Turkey and 400 of these beasts in our Arsenal will be nightmare for India. As for AK 2 Pakistan should produce it exactly like Turkey has done with its Leopard Tank

thats bs