An opinion from a Turkish brother: Pakistan's best response to Indian actions

[fitpOsitive]

Pakistan from its birth was declared as a Secular nation However the constitution of 1973 changed that. Our founding father Jinnah envisioned it as a Secular Nation as well, so who are we to disagree?
Anyways, Thank you for your input. much appreciated ^^

Ahan, so why didnt Jinnah join secular India then? India was secular till pretty recently.

 

[PakistaniJunior]

Ahan, so why then Jinnah joined secular India then? India was secular till pretty recently.

you should try rephrasing that a bit

 

[GlobalMillitary96]

So Pakistan being an "Islamic Republic" is not civilized more than india, or Islam itself is not civilized?
The problems which Pakistan faces right now are not because of Islam and the state being merged, its because chanting Islam and having no Islamic interpretation or implementation on the level of governance.
There are very few in Pakistan who actually understand what Islam is or how to follow it, they are all so called "liberated ignorant" and the other few have a very wrong image of Islam being presented to them by the wrong people they follow.

Islam if Implemented in its true essence is more tolerant and secular than any other secular concept. It's more feministic than feminism itself.
And there is no other way of life, or governance than Islam (period).


Tell me which ruler in the history of mankind has been worried for a dog spending a night hungry in the open and him being questioned for it?

While I understand your opinion. Here is a suggestion from a Pakistani brother too.
Please look up and study a bit of your religion and specially the Quran and Sunnah. Once you have you will understand what I mean

Almost any religion can fall into fanaticism. No matter what it is or what its true and original values are.

All I'm saying is that this is a perfect opportunity to show to the world that India is falling into radicalism. The answer to radicalism isn't more radicalism.. it's tolerance to all religions, whether under secular law or with Islam itself as you said.

India is falling into a trap. Religous radicalism always ends up in failure.

 

[Kabira]

On another note this is Imran Khan's game plan

Not to change Pakistan as such, but to adhere to our Constitution and Islamic principles and protect our minorities and show the world we are better


Kartarpur etc

If only we didn't have such a worthless opposition who understood these things

First of all minorities dont need your protection but equal rights under the law. Just allowing them to breath in their own land isnt good enough. Thats why Pakistan is failed insecure state.

 

[Rollno21]

Almost any religion can fall into fanaticism. No matter what it is or what its true and original values are.

All I'm saying is that this is a perfect opportunity to show to the world that India is falling into radicalism. The answer to radicalism isn't more radicalism.. it's tolerance to all religions, whether under secular law or with Islam itself as you said.

India is falling into a trap. Religous radicalism always ends up in failure.

Is Turkey giving citizenship to all illegals entering Turkey ?

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

I'm going to cop a lot of hate for this. But I must say it.

The best response to India, especially after their citizenship law is to push for secularism. Pakistan should make it very clear that it supports all religions equally. This would piss off India. India would prefer an even more Islamic Pakistan.

Trust me as a Turk. Secularism is the best thing for your country. It will gain support and respect from a lot of countries.

India is slipping into Hindu fanaticism. It is the perfect time to show the world that Pakistan is more civilised than India.

Don't forget my brothers. Secularism doesn't mean western values or liberalism. It just means that all religions are treated the same. It separates religion and state. It is the best way to go.

Salam Brother.
Nations dont define themselves just to meet a certain momentary narrative. Pakistan, isn't a politician that can change gear depending on the curves in the road. Its a country of 200 million Muslims of different ethnicities that is held up together by one thing. Islam. It's not Turkey that majority is of one race (Turks) which holds the overwhelming majority and the rest are basically powerless to do anything about it other than towing the line. Take away Islam & I as a Pashtun will have more in common with a Pashtun in Afghanistan than a Punjabi or Sindhi. Our languages, cultures, food, color, traditions are all different. Its all held up together by Islam. Thats our foundation. You take that away & the whole house of cards will crumble faster than you can say secularism. & btw A secular Pakistan already exists, it called India.

Every few years we get this debate from Surkha remnants or some foreigner who has no idea about the foundations of Pakistan. Its the same as "Pakistan should recognize Israel" debate. Yes, it might have some good superficial points working in its favor, but if you take a minute two actually weigh the pros and cons, you realize its suicide.

An argument can be made that Pakistan hasn't lived up to Quaid's expectation of religious equality but efforts to realize his dream needs to be bolstered within the walls of the Islamic republic. Wasting time on secularism will take us nowhere.

Pakistan from its birth was declared as a Secular nation However the constitution of 1973 changed that. Our founding father Jinnah envisioned it as a Secular Nation as well, so who are we to disagree?

Anyways, Thank you for your input. much appreciated ^^

False. Of all the speeches of Quaid, he mentioned secularism ZERO times. You are more than welcome to try and find a single instance where he even flirts with a secular Pakistan. He, granted, called for freedom of religion but that's basically what Islam also promises & is not limited to secularism. We have two four states at our border. The two secular one are putting Or preparing to put minorities in concentration camps.

Jinnah talked about Islamic social democracy, again and again.
Here are a few examples

"You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil" QuaidEAzam to officers & men of the 5th Heavy & 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi (21 February 1948)

"I can't understand logic of those who hv bn deliberately & mischievously propagating tht Constitution of Pak will not b based on Islamic Sharia. Islamic principles today are as much applicable to life as they were 1300 years ago” Speech to Karachi Bar Association, Jan 25, 1948

"When we say this flag (Muslim League's flag) is the flag of Islam they think we are introducing religion into politics - a fact of which we are proud. Islam gives us a complete code. It is not only religion but it contains laws, philosophy and politics. In fact, it contains everything that matters to a man from morning to night. When we talk of Islam we take it as all embracing word. We do not mean any ill. The foundation of our Islamic code is that we stand for liberty, equality and fraternity." Address to the Gaya Muslim League Conference in January 1938

"We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice" QuaidEAzam address on occasion of the opening of State bank of Pakistan (1st July 1948)

"I am glad that there is full realization on your part tht now the position is basically different. It is no longer a foreign govt .... but it is now a MUSLIM govt & MUSLIM rule that holds the reigns of this great .... State of Pakistan" Address to Tribal Jirga 17 April 1948

"You are only voicing my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmans when you say that [[Pakistan should be based on sure foundations of social justice and Islamic socialism]] which emphasizes equality and brotherhood of man." Jinnah's Speech in Chittagong, 26/3/1948

"It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law giver, Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundation of our democracy on the basis of truly Islamic ideals & principles"QuaidEAzam at Darbar in Sibi Balochistan 14/2/1948

"I dont know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam . . . In any case Pak isnt going to be a theocratic State" Radio Broadcast to the People of USA Feb 1948

"What more can one really expect than to see that this mighty land has now been brought under a rule, which is Islamic, Muslim rule, as a sovereign independent State" Speech in reply to Welcome Address by the Principal, Staff & Students of Edwardes College, Peshawar, 18/4/1948

I hope i have provided enough evidence to argue the fact tha a secular Quaid-e-Azam is a figment of surkha imagination. Same surkhas who were purged out of Muslim League by Jinnah in 1940s.

 

[Kabira]

Is Turkey giving citizenship to all illegals entering Turkey ?

Dude not even Pakistan is building concentration camps for minorities. What India is doing is Nazi Germany like.

 

[PakistaniJunior]

So Pakistan being an "Islamic Republic" is not civilized more than india, or Islam itself is not civilized?
The problems which Pakistan faces right now are not because of Islam and the state being merged, its because chanting Islam and having no Islamic interpretation or implementation on the level of governance.
There are very few in Pakistan who actually understand what Islam is or how to follow it, they are all so called "liberated ignorant" and the other few have a very wrong image of Islam being presented to them by the wrong people they follow.

Islam if Implemented in its true essence is more tolerant and secular than any other secular concept. It's more feministic than feminism itself.
And there is no other way of life, or governance than Islam (period).


Tell me which ruler in the history of mankind has been worried for a dog spending a night hungry in the open and him being questioned for it?

While I understand your opinion. Here is a suggestion from a Pakistani brother too.
Please look up and study a bit of your religion and specially the Quran and Sunnah. Once you have you will understand what I mean

No doubt the system devised by Islam is the most correct way of ruling. However you're forgetting that the people who ran such Islamic Nations fundamentally understood and followed Islam to the utmost fullest. Our society, on the other hand, is filled with many crooked people, who will abuse such a system, and this is where the problem starts. For the Islamic system to work, the people have to be islamic too. Pakistani people aren't as islamic as they may seem. There are many selfish people who are willing to work for only their own interest. Our fundamental problem itself is corruption. The problem here isn't the system, but is with the people. Religion is being used by people for their own gain, not for what it's supposed to be.

 

[Kabira]

Pakistan from its birth was declared as a Secular nation However the constitution of 1973 changed that. Our founding father Jinnah envisioned it as a Secular Nation as well, so who are we to disagree?

Anyways, Thank you for your input. much appreciated ^^

Yes for that Jinnah needed few more years. We can still make amendments to 1973 constitution.

 

[Rollno21]

Dude not even Pakistan is building concentration camps for minorities. What India is doing is Nazi Germany like.

Don't worry we are not going to gas them.we will only send them to the country they belong to

 

[PakistaniJunior]

Salam Brother.
Nations dont define themselves just to meet a certain momentary narrative. Pakistan, isn't a politician that can change gear depending on the curves in the road. Its a country of 200 million Muslims of different ethnicities that is held up together by one thing. Islam. It's not Turkey that majority is of one race (Turks) which holds the overwhelming majority and the rest are basically powerless to do anything about it other than towing the line. Take away Islam & I as a Pashtun will have more in common with a Pashtun in Afghanistan than a Punjabi or Sindhi. Our languages, cultures, food, color, traditions are all different. Its all held up together by Islam. Thats our foundation. You take that away & the whole house of cards will crumble faster than you can say secularism. & btw A secular Pakistan already exists, it called India.

Every few years we get this debate from Surkha remnants or some foreigner who has no idea about the foundations of Pakistan. Its the same as "Pakistan should recognize Israel" debate. Yes, it might have some good superficial points working in its favor, but if you take a minute two actually weigh the pros and cons, you realize its suicide.

An argument can be made that Pakistan hasn't lived up to Quaid's expectation of religious equality but efforts to realize his dream needs to be bolstered within the walls of the Islamic republic. Wasting time on secularism will take us nowhere.



False. Of all the speeches of Quaid, he mentioned secularism ZERO times. You are more than welcome to try and find a single instance where he even flirts with a secular Pakistan. He, granted, called for freedom of religion but that's basically what Islam also promises & is not limited to secularism. We have two four states at our border. The two secular one are putting Or preparing to put minorities in concentration camps.

Jinnah talked about Islamic social democracy, again and again.
Here are a few examples

"You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil" QuaidEAzam to officers & men of the 5th Heavy & 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi (21 February 1948)

"I can't understand logic of those who hv bn deliberately & mischievously propagating tht Constitution of Pak will not b based on Islamic Sharia. Islamic principles today are as much applicable to life as they were 1300 years ago” Speech to Karachi Bar Association, Jan 25, 1948

"When we say this flag (Muslim League's flag) is the flag of Islam they think we are introducing religion into politics - a fact of which we are proud. Islam gives us a complete code. It is not only religion but it contains laws, philosophy and politics. In fact, it contains everything that matters to a man from morning to night. When we talk of Islam we take it as all embracing word. We do not mean any ill. The foundation of our Islamic code is that we stand for liberty, equality and fraternity." Address to the Gaya Muslim League Conference in January 1938

"We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice" QuaidEAzam address on occasion of the opening of State bank of Pakistan (1st July 1948)

"I am glad that there is full realization on your part tht now the position is basically different. It is no longer a foreign govt .... but it is now a MUSLIM govt & MUSLIM rule that holds the reigns of this great .... State of Pakistan" Address to Tribal Jirga 17 April 1948

"You are only voicing my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmans when you say that [[Pakistan should be based on sure foundations of social justice and Islamic socialism]] which emphasizes equality and brotherhood of man." Jinnah's Speech in Chittagong, 26/3/1948

"It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law giver, Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundation of our democracy on the basis of truly Islamic ideals & principles"QuaidEAzam at Darbar in Sibi Balochistan 14/2/1948

"I dont know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam . . . In any case Pak isnt going to be a theocratic State" Radio Broadcast to the People of USA Feb 1948

"What more can one really expect than to see that this mighty land has now been brought under a rule, which is Islamic, Muslim rule, as a sovereign independent State" Speech in reply to Welcome Address by the Principal, Staff & Students of Edwardes College, Peshawar, 18/4/1948

I hope i have provided enough evidence to argue the fact tha a secular Quaid-e-Azam is a figment of surkha imagination. Same surkhas who were purged out of Muslim League by Jinnah in 1940s.

alright then,but he didn't declare Pakistan as a full fledge Islamic Nation either. Initially Pakistan was known as the Dominion of Pakistan , why not the Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

ah i see, but he didn't declare Pakistan as a Islamic Nation either. It was the Dominion of Pakistan in the beginning. Not Islamic Republic specifically.

He died before a constitution could be framed, but his speeches are evidence enough of the road he would have taken had he lived. Objectives Resolution by Muslim League in March 1949 officially paved the way for Pakistan becoming Islamic republic in 1973 He was against a theocratic state run by Mullahs & that is exactly what we are not. Neither will we ever be a secular state.

 

[Jackdaws]

I'm going to cop a lot of hate for this. But I must say it.

The best response to India, especially after their citizenship law is to push for secularism. Pakistan should make it very clear that it supports all religions equally. This would piss off India. India would prefer an even more Islamic Pakistan.

Trust me as a Turk. Secularism is the best thing for your country. It will gain support and respect from a lot of countries.

India is slipping into Hindu fanaticism. It is the perfect time to show the world that Pakistan is more civilised than India.

Don't forget my brothers. Secularism doesn't mean western values or liberalism. It just means that all religions are treated the same. It separates religion and state. It is the best way to go.

It is not going to pi$$ us off at all. We would be very happy. It would prove Gandhi, Nehru, Bose, Patel, Maulana Azad and Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan right.

 

[Xestan]

This is the policy statement of our founding father;

Imagine if someone had proposed 2nd amendment BS to him. He had an Ahmadi Foreign Minister.

 

[fitpOsitive]

you should try rephrasing that a bit

Help me please