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An Israeli Shell in an Indian Tank

Its the opposite. LAHAT has top attack mode, so it has much more probability to kill than any other tank launched missile.
There is no top attack mode, unless you have a different undertsanding of the term.

Again its the opposite. Its guidance method allows firing from greater ranges and from enclosed positions.
There is not any gain in range, missile range is limited by tank ability, sensors, laser designator.

Fire from enclosed positions, target must be designated externally, tank by itself cannot perform anything.

As for alerting, modern laser warning sensors detect beam rider as well:
In such missiles there are no seekers, so there is nothing to disrupt. Laser beam is pointed not against target, but at missile, so it cannot alert the target.
Both parts failed in Indian trials, Pakistani tanks also dont have neither of them (expect that one on excibition :D).
Nothing failed in Indian trials, related to effectiveness of system.

About Pakistani tanks, I do not know, but surely many of them are equipped with laser radiation warning devices, as well as most of modern tanks, which makes LAHAT a rather useless missile for anti-tank role.
 
So by your logic, just point laser into smoke and hope it hits the Tank, right?


A smoke grenade is supposed to act like a cover for the Tank, not obscure the laser. How can you point a laser at a Tank if you can't spot its exact position under the cover of dense smoke?

Thats were Our NAG missile will come in play .....
 
Again its the opposite. Its guidance method allows firing from greater ranges and from enclosed positions.

As for alerting, modern laser warning sensors detect beam rider as well:

yes they can detect beam rider missiles laser beam after all it's directed at the tank general direction , the problem is there is nothing they can do against it they are alerted about the enemy missile they maybe think its laser painting the tank so they put up a smoke screen ,but the missile don't care about it as the seeker is not at the head of missile but at the tail of the missile so that smoke cant disrupt the laser beam between the operator and missile
 
There is no top attack mode, unless you have a different undertsanding of the term.
The trajectory can be set to match either top attack or direct attack engagements.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/laser-homing-attack-missile/

There is not any gain in range, missile range is limited by tank ability, sensors, laser designator.
Beam ride hardly suitable for range beyond 5 km.

Fire from enclosed positions, target must be designated externally, tank by itself cannot perform anything.
Tanks always fight with combined forces.

In such missiles there are no seekers, so there is nothing to disrupt. Laser beam is pointed not against target, but at missile, so it cannot alert the target.
If you cant see the target you cant hit it. Also weak beam riding laser has even lower chance to pass trough the smoke

Nothing failed in Indian trials, related to effectiveness of system.
It did fail, thats why you cant see any component of it on Indian T-90s.
 
There is no top attack mode, unless you have a different undertsanding of the term.
I guess your understanding of top attack mode is different than ours.
With a low launch signature (flash and dust), the firing position is very difficult to detect, from all ranges. The missile’s trajectory can be set to match either tank (top attack) or helicopter (direct attack) engagements.
Lahat Laser Guided Missile
BTW 500 Is that you in your avatar?
 
If you cant see the target you cant hit it. Also weak beam riding laser has even lower chance to pass trough the smoke

why a beam-rider must care if the laser pass through the smoke screen or not at must the missile loose contact with operator at the last 10-15 meter and if its not aligned with the vehicle in that distant there is no chance to hit it.
 
The trajectory can be set to match either top attack or direct attack engagements.

LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology
This is only your missundertsanding, of marketing terms. These missiles follow a loafted trajectory, in LAHAT, Refleks, etc there are several firing modes, to avoid obstacles or hit different targets, etc. In such cases missile does not follow a direct trajectory. But this cannot be considered really as top attack (in the sense of Javelin, for ex) because there is no special algorithm which tells to inflict on top.

Angle of infliction of such missiles is result of their flight path, and hit can well occur in turret front, frontal hull detail, etc (in most cases). Categorisation of such flight modes as top attack, or not, is up to marketing.

Beam ride hardly suitable for range beyond 5 km.
Same limitations apply to LAHAT or any other guided projectile fired from tank, 5-6 km is limitation of it's systems to engage target.

Neither more range is needed, (and cannot be achieved anyway). Effective range of conventional tank rounds, 2-2.5 km. Missile therefore gives a 2, 2.5 times longer engagement range, beyond the response capability of the enemy.

Tanks always fight with combined forces.
Combined forces, there are developed multitude of munitions. Also to note that tank needs independance, it's capabilities cannot depend on external support, as it cannot always be provided. And we are discussing tank munitions for tank combat anyway, that is another subject.

If you cant see the target you cant hit it. Also weak beam riding laser has even lower chance to pass trough the smoke
I do not understand what are you saying here. Maybe you ignore this missile's guidance working method and what I explained.

It did fail, thats why you cant see any component of it on Indian T-90s.
It had nothing to do with system effectiveness, but another reasons completely, related to engine operation under extreme temperatures.

During engine operation, part of it is lost in transmission, part to generate power to operate electronic systems, etc. Under extreme temperatures engine losses efficiency, so there can appear malfunctions in electronic systems, engine itself. Because of that reason no additional APS systems were installed in Indian tanks. But this has nothing to do on wheter this APS working scheme is effective or not against threats. Indeed, this is a mature, and continously modernised system.
 
This is only your missundertsanding, of marketing terms. These missiles follow a loafted trajectory, in LAHAT, Refleks, etc there are several firing modes, to avoid obstacles or hit different targets, etc. In such cases missile does not follow a direct trajectory. But this cannot be considered really as top attack (in the sense of Javelin, for ex) because there is no special algorithm which tells to inflict on top.

Angle of infliction of such missiles is result of their flight path, and hit can well occur in turret front, frontal hull detail, etc (in most cases). Categorisation of such flight modes as top attack, or not, is up to marketing.


Same limitations apply to LAHAT or any other guided projectile fired from tank, 5-6 km is limitation of it's systems to engage target.

Neither more range is needed, (and cannot be achieved anyway). Effective range of conventional tank rounds, 2-2.5 km. Missile therefore gives a 2, 2.5 times longer engagement range, beyond the response capability of the enemy.


Combined forces, there are developed multitude of munitions. Also to note that tank needs independance, it's capabilities cannot depend on external support, as it cannot always be provided. And we are discussing tank munitions for tank combat anyway, that is another subject.


I do not understand what are you saying here. Maybe you ignore this missile's guidance working method and what I explained.


It had nothing to do with system effectiveness, but another reasons completely, related to engine operation under extreme temperatures.

During engine operation, part of it is lost in transmission, part to generate power to operate electronic systems, etc. Under extreme temperatures engine losses efficiency, so there can appear malfunctions in electronic systems, engine itself. Because of that reason no additional APS systems were installed in Indian tanks. But this has nothing to do on wheter this APS working scheme is effective or not against threats. Indeed, this is a mature, and continously modernised system.

You're talking nonsense, nothing you have said stands up to any degree of scrutiny. The VARTRA APS catergorically failed in Indian trails on the T-90 and T-72 and it had NOTHING to do with engine temperatures but the ineffectiveness of the system. The system only intercepted 2 projectiles out of 15, if this is not failure I don't know what is. Hence the IA conducted other trails of other systems and found the LEDS-150 to be superior to all it had tried out, this is now the standard APS for T-90 and T-72 tanks in IA service- FACT. As for Arjun the Mk.2 version is to be integrated with the finest APS in the world- the Iron Fist (this will also be retrofitted to the Mk.1 at a later date).


And in regards to the LAHAT, I don't know where you're getting you're info from but IT DOES come with top-attack and all your talk of algorithms and software is just hot air. If a company states its weapon can do a very specific thing then I'm bloody sure IT CAN DO IT and they're not the ones who have misunderstood THEIR product.


Look it up all of these are FACTS, maybe this concept is new to you.
 
You're talking nonsense, nothing you have said stands up to any degree of scrutiny. The VARTRA APS catergorically failed in Indian trails on the T-90 and T-72 and it had NOTHING to do with engine temperatures but the ineffectiveness of the system. The system only intercepted 2 projectiles out of 15, if this is not failure I don't know what is. Hence the IA conducted other trails of other systems and found the LEDS-150 to be superior to all it had tried out, this is now the standard APS for T-90 and T-72 tanks in IA service- FACT. As for Arjun the Mk.2 version is to be integrated with the finest APS in the world- the Iron Fist (this will also be retrofitted to the Mk.1 at a later date).

There is absolutely nothing of value in that babble, as you do not understand the subject, for ex, confuse systems, terms. So there is nothing to respond to that.
 
This is only your missundertsanding, of marketing terms. These missiles follow a loafted trajectory, in LAHAT, Refleks, etc there are several firing modes, to avoid obstacles or hit different targets, etc. In such cases missile does not follow a direct trajectory. But this cannot be considered really as top attack (in the sense of Javelin, for ex) because there is no special algorithm which tells to inflict on top.
lofted trajectory means top attack. Even if it hits the front hull, still normal thickness of armor will be much lower than LOS.

for example T-72A hull provides only 170 mm normal protection vs HEAT rounds, but when inclined at 68 grad it gives 450 mm.

fdgfg.1333389490.gif


In another words, the lofted trajectory provides about 2.5 times advantage to LAHAT even when it its the frontal hull of T-80UD. In case of Al Khalid Lahat's advantage will be even bigger since it has more inclined hull. Plus Lahat has good chance to hit the turret roof of both tanks. So overall Lahat has much better chances to destroy T-80 or Al Khalid.

Same limitations apply to LAHAT or any other guided projectile fired from tank, 5-6 km is limitation of it's systems to engage target.
LAHAT can get external designation.

Neither more range is needed, (and cannot be achieved anyway). Effective range of conventional tank rounds, 2-2.5 km. Missile therefore gives a 2, 2.5 times longer engagement range, beyond the response capability of the enemy.
Range is not needed? Kransopol rounds are not needed too? :lol: As for tank guns, they can hit targets at 4-5 km.

Combined forces, there are developed multitude of munitions. Also to note that tank needs independance, it's capabilities cannot depend on external support, as it cannot always be provided. And we are discussing tank munitions for tank combat anyway, that is another subject.
Tank always needs infantry support.

I do not understand what are you saying here. Maybe you ignore this missile's guidance working method and what I explained.
If tank sets smoke screen and hides itself then you cant guide your laser beam either. Also when missile passes trough the screen it loses guidance and falls to ground.

It had nothing to do with system effectiveness, but another reasons completely, related to engine operation under extreme temperatures.

During engine operation, part of it is lost in transmission, part to generate power to operate electronic systems, etc. Under extreme temperatures engine losses efficiency, so there can appear malfunctions in electronic systems, engine itself. Because of that reason no additional APS systems were installed in Indian tanks. But this has nothing to do on wheter this APS working scheme is effective or not against threats. Indeed, this is a mature, and continously modernised system.
LOL. Shtora emiters consume 2 KWt together, thats nothing for 1000 hp tank (much less than 1 percent). And laser detectors dont consume anything (10 WT probably), but they are not installed either.

BTW 500 Is that you in your avatar?
No, sorry. :)
 
There is absolutely nothing of value in that babble, as you do not understand the subject, for ex, confuse systems, terms. So there is nothing to respond to that.

How about you rebuke my claims, the fact you are dismissive shows you have little to say.
 
The overwhelming majority of Al Khalids dont have these system:

Those are old pictures of Al-Khalid from around 2004-2007, the one i posted was a from around 2008-2010, but i can't find other pictures with the Al-Khalid equipped with VARTAS, i'm guessing its optional to equip the Tank with the APS, but that pciture i posted does confirm the presence of the system.
 
lofted trajectory means top attack. Even if it hits the front hull, still normal thickness of armor will be much lower than LOS.
Lofted trajectory does not mean top attack, as there is no way to assure that it will hit at effective point. It is only marketing BS. With that logic, refleks, Kornet, etc can be categorised as top attack as well, as they all have similar modes, so I do not see anything special.

for example T-72A hull provides only 170 mm normal protection vs HEAT rounds, but when inclined at 68 grad it gives 450 mm.

In another words, the lofted trajectory provides about 2.5 times advantage to LAHAT even when it its the frontal hull of T-80UD. In case of Al Khalid Lahat's advantage will be even bigger since it has more inclined hull. Plus Lahat has good chance to hit the turret roof of both tanks. So overall Lahat has much better chances to destroy T-80 or Al Khalid.
Funny thing is that you made that amateur drawing, whithout knowledge of neither of both missiles trajectories, and angle of incidence (they are not that different).

Well, if we talk about probabilities, LAHAT will most likely not even hit such target as T-80UD as it's laser designator would alert it, and guidance will be disrupted. ;)

LAHAT can get external designation.
It is not the only such weapon. But let's focus: In visual, tank warfare, LAHAT is useless compared with rest of munitions, in power, and because it's guidance will be disrupted. In non visual engagements, there can be used comparable munitions to LAHAT, so it has no place for tank use, hence it was not purchased neither by Israel, nor Germany, nor India despite it's promotion.

Range is not needed? Kransopol rounds are not needed too? :lol: As for tank guns, they can hit targets at 4-5 km.
Conventional munitions start to be affected by serious dispersion, loss of effectiveness, from 2 km. Missiles are effective at more than double that range, and more powerfull.

Tank always needs infantry support.
Your infantry may not be able to perform all tasks. For non visual engagements you need early warning, to know location of enemy, and they must be tracked by those external means (vehicles, aerial, etc) this cannot be always provided, and this is not as effective as direct engagements.

If tank sets smoke screen and hides itself then you cant guide your laser beam either. Also when missile passes trough the screen it loses guidance and falls to ground.
This is nosense. If there is a screen which does not allow visual engagement, then you obviously cannot aquire target, neither by conventional munitions, guided or unguided. So I do not see the point of that statement.

Obviously, you cannot alert the target if you want to engage it effectively. This is understood in modern warfare. Laser range finders to measure distance, are pointed not at target but at a near point in order to not alert it. Guided projectiles have been developed accordingly, for example using laser beam guidance not pointed against target, but at missile. This is not realised in Lahat, where you need to point directly with laser designator, alerting the target and calling for countermeasures.

LOL. Shtora emiters consume 2 KWt together, thats nothing for 1000 hp tank (much less than 1 percent). And laser detectors dont consume anything (10 WT probably), but they are not installed either.
Among lossess there can be about 50 hp lost in transmission, 150 hp lost in refrigeration, etc, etc. Under extreme hot temperatures this can be exacerbated, leading to serious losses and malfunction. This of course has nothing to do with effectiveness of APS against projectiles, anyway, you should bring sources, to prove otherwise, but I know that already.
 
This smoke issue is BS, the Arjun (even Mk.1) comes with advanced Thermal sights for both the commander and gunner, they can see the target through the smoke, guide the laser onto it and launch the LAHAT-easy!



+ btw there is a reson the IA mech forces don't use the VATRA APS, in Indian conditions/trails the system failed abysmally, managing to intercept 2/15 targets. This is why the IA uses the far more advanced Iron Fist APS.

But how can the missile hit the Target if the laser beam isn't being reflected back?

A very good point JEskandari made was that regardless if the Tank has thermal sights, if the laser can't be reflected through the smoke how will the Missiles detector pick up the target to lock onto?
 
This smoke issue is BS, the Arjun (even Mk.1) comes with advanced Thermal sights for both the commander and gunner, they can see the target through the smoke, guide the laser onto it and launch the LAHAT-easy!



+ btw there is a reson the IA mech forces don't use the VATRA APS, in Indian conditions/trails the system failed abysmally, managing to intercept 2/15 targets. This is why the IA uses the far more advanced Iron Fist APS.

indian army doesnt use VATRA APS because its ukrainian not russian... and the APS rejected was Shotra.
 

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