An eye opener for Indian Muslims

[Crusher]

Stay safe friend. It's bad that PDF Pakistanis living safely in Pakistan, expat Afghans and expat Muslims are asking you to rebel in a suicidal way. And you know that there WILL be a repeat of the Gujarat 2002 massacre if you guys raise your head against even obviously biased laws like the Indian Citizenship laws.

Best for you is to organize, educate, and inform your community and the world in as peaceful way as possible. As I said in some other thread, the Indian Muslims need a revival of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan's movement from the 19th century: Education and modernization. Along with that, there should be a hope that this wave of ultra-nationalism sweeping India (and the world at large, actually) goes away. But also start thinking about migrating to areas adjoining Indian Punjab and Bangladesh to form majorities there.

As for the OP topic: Very low of such a high ranking BJP official to say such things. He maybe right that Muslims, when they reach a critical mass of population, often want to turn their religious identity into political ones. But that's not just Muslims: In last 1-2 decades alone we have seen non-Muslims broke up Muslim countries to make new countries (E. Timor and South Sudan), not to mention several conflicts of ethnic nature (Eastern Europe comes to mind quickly) where the 'minorities' were large enough to try to make their identities into political ones.

How do you know everyone living in Pakistan lives "safely" in Pakistan, when I was back in my area in Pakistan I often didn't feel "safe" at all, I observed enmities resulting into horrific murders in my area at various points in my life there. I had to be very careful outside of my home at midnights because there was no guarantee that it would always be "safe". My cousin got murdered at midnight at the hands of thieves some years ago. So how can you claim it is "safe" for Pakistanis living in Pakistan. I know you find it hard to believe that gangu muslims are docile cowards by nature, infact majority of gangus of all types are inherently cowards, they are not people who take risks or gamble their lives for any kind of "purpose".

 

[xeuss]

Stay safe friend. It's bad that PDF Pakistanis living safely in Pakistan, expat Afghans and expat Muslims are asking you to rebel in a suicidal way. And you know that there WILL be a repeat of the Gujarat 2002 massacre if you guys raise your head against even obviously biased laws like the Indian Citizenship laws.

Best for you is to organize, educate, and inform your community and the world in as peaceful way as possible. As I said in some other thread, the Indian Muslims need a revival of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan's movement from the 19th century: Education and modernization. Along with that, there should be a hope that this wave of ultra-nationalism sweeping India (and the world at large, actually) goes away. But also start thinking about migrating to areas adjoining Indian Punjab and Bangladesh to form majorities there.

As for the OP topic: Very low of such a high ranking BJP official to say such things. He maybe right that Muslims, when they reach a critical mass of population, often want to turn their religious identity into political ones. But that's not just Muslims: In last 1-2 decades alone we have seen non-Muslims broke up Muslim countries to make new countries (E. Timor and South Sudan), not to mention several conflicts of ethnic nature (Eastern Europe comes to mind quickly) where the 'minorities' were large enough to try to make their identities into political ones.

Thank you for your understanding of the situation. It is indeed a pleasure when you come across someone who understands your predicament.

For most of us Indian Muslims, we find solace in the words of Hasan al-Basri:

“A group of Muslims came to al-Hasan al-Basrī seeking a verdict to rebel against al-Hajjāj (a tyrannical and despotic general). So they said, “O Abu Saʿīd! What do you say about fighting this oppressor who has unlawfully spilt blood and unlawfully taken wealth and has done this and done that?” So al-Hasan said, “I hold that he should not be fought. If this is a punishment from Allāh, then you will not be able to remove it with your swords. If this is a trial from Allāh, then be patient until Allāh’s judgement comes, and He is the best of judges.” So they left al-Hasan, disagreed with him and rebelled against al-Hajjāj – so al-Hajjāj killed them all. Al-Hasan used to say, “If the people had patience when they are being tested by their unjust ruler, it will not be long before Allāh will give them a way out. However, they always rush for their swords, so they are left with their swords. By Allāh! Not even for a single day did they bring about any good.”

As for your remarks regarding education and modernization. Yes, that is what we are actively working towards. We try and spend us much of our zakat and sadaqa in these efforts. There is a long road ahead of us, but we will succeed, with the will of Allah

 

[Meengla]

How do you know everyone living in Pakistan lives "safely" in Pakistan, when I was back in my area in Pakistan I often didn't feel "safe" at all, I observed enmities resulting into horrific murders in my area at various points in my life there. I had to be very careful outside of my home at midnights because there was no guarantee that it would always be "safe". My cousin got murdered at midnight at the hands of thieves some years ago. So how can you claim it is "safe" for Pakistanis living in Pakistan. I know you find it hard to believe that gangu muslims are docile cowards by nature, infact majority of gangus of all types are inherently cowards, they are not people who take risks or gamble their lives for any kind of "purpose".

Pakistan still does NOT have a long, deep, and sordid history of pogroms against religious minorities and this particular thread is about the religious divide in South Asia. We are not talking about regular crimes in this thread. Indeed, the crimes of hate, whether because of ethnicity or religion, are the worst forms of crimes because of their uniquely contagious nature and that's why 'hate crimes' are very ruthlessly monitored and crushed in civilized societies. You should look up on the KKK history in America, as an example.

While we are on this topic: The world must know that, yes, the minorities in Pakistan have been discriminated against, but the lower proportion of religious minorities in the current state of Pakistan when compared with what it was in 1947 is not because of mass killings or ethnic cleansing. The reasons are in migration TO India as well as the secession of the then East Pakistan, which had a large non-Muslim minority. This important point PDF Pakistanis MUST tell the world because the Indian propaganda is hot and incessant on the reduction of Pakistan's religious minorities.

On the other hand, India has seen so many organized, bloody pogroms against the minorities in India that calling India a 'secular democracy' is a big JOKE! But still India is more liberal, and tolerant than most of the Middle Eastern countries...well, if you have to compare with someone..

 

[Crusher]

On the other hand, India has seen so many organized, bloody pogroms against the minorities in India that calling India a 'secular democracy' is a big JOKE! But still India is more liberal, and tolerant than most of the Middle Eastern countries...well, if you have to compare with someone..

I as a native origin Pakistani will always stand with the middle east countries and will never give a damn about india. For you india could be a sacred ancestral land but for vast majority of native origin Pakistanis it is no more than a sh1th0le.

 

[Kaniska]

Pakistan still does NOT have a long, deep, and sordid history of pogroms against religious minorities and this particular thread is about the religious divide in South Asia. We are not talking about regular crimes in this thread. Indeed, the crimes of hate, whether because of ethnicity or religion, are the worst forms of crimes because of their uniquely contagious nature and that's why 'hate crimes' are very ruthlessly monitored and crushed in civilized societies. You should look up on the KKK history in America, as an example.

While we are on this topic: The world must know that, yes, the minorities in Pakistan have been discriminated against, but the lower proportion of religious minorities in the current state of Pakistan when compared with what it was in 1947 is not because of mass killings or ethnic cleansing. The reasons are in migration TO India as well as the secession of the then East Pakistan, which had a large non-Muslim minority. This important point PDF Pakistanis MUST tell the world because the Indian propaganda is hot and incessant on the reduction of Pakistan's religious minorities.

On the other hand, India has seen so many organized, bloody pogroms against the minorities in India that calling India a 'secular democracy' is a big JOKE! But still India is more liberal, and tolerant than most of the Middle Eastern countries...well, if you have to compare with someone..

Indian secular democracy is still held miles ahead than any kind of propaganda by anyone agency from Pakistan...The basis reason it will stay miles ahead because Pakistan can not even complain as technically Pakistan does not even provide equal status to their minority citizens through your constitution...

Basically, if Europe complains about India is bad, if any Indian will feel really ashamed because a normal comparison will come into the picture between the person who is complaining and against whom it is being complained... Now, think about Pakistan now complaining about Indian is bad because they discriminate 20% of their population....Then the next question will come up, are you guys better than India? How come Pakistan complains when your nation and constitution is built with a narrative of the supremacy of one religion and provide other religion as less privilaged ones....Can you think of a recent case where one Christian woman was persecuted because of religious issue?

Now, if you are really talking about numbers, then this is another debate where Pakistan will loose the argument...You can not even respect another group of people who are Muslims but linguistic minority in own coountry.....So technically, you do not have even a minority population like India who can even raise any question even if there is any discrimination...

 

[Meengla]

Indian secular democracy is still held miles ahead than any kind of propaganda by anyone agency from Pakistan...The basis reason it will stay miles ahead because Pakistan can not even complain as technically Pakistan does not even provide equal status to their minority citizens through your constitution...

Basically, if Europe complains about India is bad, if any Indian will feel really ashamed because a normal comparison will come into the picture between the person who is complaining and against whom it is being complained... Now, think about Pakistan now complaining about Indian is bad because they discriminate 20% of their population....Then the next question will come up, are you guys better than India? How come Pakistan complains when your nation and constitution is built with a narrative of the supremacy of one religion and provide other religion as less privilaged ones....Can you think of a recent case where one Christian woman was persecuted because of religious issue?

Now, if you are really talking about numbers, then this is another debate where Pakistan will loose the argument...You can not even respect another group of people who are Muslims but linguistic minority in own coountry.....So technically, you do not have even a minority population like India who can even raise any question even if there is any discrimination...

Not buying your argument. Pakistan was and has been a theocracy and that is enshrined in the Constitution of Pakistan. While India proclaims to be a 'Secular Democracy' but has a horribly long history of actual physical violence against not only Muslims but also against Sikhs. And many accounts say of discrimination against even 'lower caste Hindus' but I don't know much about them and so won't speak on that. Suffice is to say that, yes, religious minorities in Pakistan are not the cherry on the top but they have NEVER been subjected to the actual horrible repeated physical violence as they have been in India!!

In a way you had hinted at your own sorry state of affairs when you vindicated Jinnah in this very thread above. You clearly implied that you'd rather have even more division of India based on religious lines instead of the mess what India is now. Pakistan is a far more homogeneous country than India and that's it's strength and you know that!! I appreciate your honesty!

As for your joy over minorities not allowed their voice in Pakistan--just because of some misguided PDF so-called 'Sons of Soil' or 'Birthers' are active here won't change the fact that Pakistani power politics has a fair mix of many ethnicities making to the top, including the Urdu Speakers (aka Muhajirs). You are really reading too much into the ethnic divides in Pakistan on PDF.

 

[Kaniska]

Not buying your argument. Pakistan was and has been a theocracy and that is enshrined in the Constitution of Pakistan. While India proclaims to be a 'Secular Democracy' but has a horribly long history of actual physical violence against not only Muslims but also against Sikhs. And many accounts say of discrimination against even 'lower caste Hindus' but I don't know much about them and so won't speak on that. Suffice is to say that, yes, religious minorities in Pakistan are not the cherry on the top but they have NEVER been subjected to the actual horrible repeated physical violence as they have been in India!!

In a way you had hinted at your own sorry state of affairs when you vindicated Jinnah in this very thread above. You clearly implied that you'd rather have even more division of India based on religious lines instead of the mess what India is now. Pakistan is a far more homogeneous country than India and that's it's strength and you know that!! I appreciate your honesty!

As for your joy over minorities not allowed their voice in Pakistan--just because of some misguided PDF so-called 'Sons of Soil' or 'Birthers' are active here won't change the fact that Pakistani power politics has a fair mix of many ethnicities making to the top, including the Urdu Speakers (aka Muhajirs). You are really reading too much into the ethnic divides in Pakistan on PDF.

Mate..you are one of the poster..i enjoyed debating with you apart from Indus Pakistan...

I believe, i did not articulate properly in my earlier thread...In my opinion, Jinah has highly misunderstood politician of Indian history...If any right-wing Hindu should say thank you to any politician, then it should be Jinha...At the time of partition itself, India should have been a Non-Muslim Pakistan as per the same idea that Jinha made it for your country.Having said that, my intent is not to see any division or break up of India....Rather, I believe, Indians should have been a multicultural nation without Muslims at the time of partition itself. Pakistan is a nation based on Muslims of sub-continent...I always respect Gandhiji for the independence movement but his vision for modern India is not smart enough to foresee the danger in advance. But that does not mean, I would like to see India to break up or remove our Indians who is Muslim from our nation....Absolutely ...not ...We should admit the mistakes in our history and see, how can we correct it in a peaceful way...

Now coming with the comparison of Pakistan, i still stand by my argument but I respect your opinion too...Let us agree to disagree with these points.

I do not consider Pakistan to be compared with India in the same prism. Now a theocracy can not be compared with a democratic multicultural nation even if our democracy is having many faultlines ...That is the advantage that we will get even if we may not always deserve it....

 

[Meengla]

I do not consider Pakistan to be compared with India in the same prism. Now a theocracy can not be compared with a democratic multicultural nation even if our democracy is having many faultlines ...That is the advantage that we will get even if we may not always deserve it....

We will have to agree to disagree...

But the very long history of very brutal religious violence in India, which are now highlighted in the world media as recently as a few weeks ago (the Delhi violence) when Trump visited India, make it very hard to accept India even a decent society, let alone a 'secular democracy'. The 'Yoga', the 'Bollywood', the ... work but so so other news items.

You guys are flying high because the West needs you for your markets and for some supposed China-containment policy. Strip away those two factors and you may realize people worldwide are waking up to the extreme nationalism, the filth, the poverty, the violence, and utterly disgusting corporate media in India.

If only the West decides to dump you... you have the feet of clay. You won't stand up, let alone 'stand tall'.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Since your iman is soooo strong, why don't you come to India and show us how to fight.

As if we haven't had enough problems with Hindus, here comes along a brainiac with his newly found typing skills.

@JafarQureshi is a false flagger Hindu radical from India. We have seen him before.

So lovely. Hindus call me a Pakistani and Pakistanis call me a Hindu.



Why bother humoring these people. They will come back whining that the Sachar commission report is not true...just look at Shahrukh Khan

He is not Pakistani, please don't be quick to misjudge us. We are all supportice of you guys.

If anyone gives you a hard time, please let me and other Pakistani members know. We will do our best here to keep your important voice here.

Thank you for your understanding of the situation. It is indeed a pleasure when you come across someone who understands your predicament.

For most of us Indian Muslims, we find solace in the words of Hasan al-Basri:

“A group of Muslims came to al-Hasan al-Basrī seeking a verdict to rebel against al-Hajjāj (a tyrannical and despotic general). So they said, “O Abu Saʿīd! What do you say about fighting this oppressor who has unlawfully spilt blood and unlawfully taken wealth and has done this and done that?” So al-Hasan said, “I hold that he should not be fought. If this is a punishment from Allāh, then you will not be able to remove it with your swords. If this is a trial from Allāh, then be patient until Allāh’s judgement comes, and He is the best of judges.” So they left al-Hasan, disagreed with him and rebelled against al-Hajjāj – so al-Hajjāj killed them all. Al-Hasan used to say, “If the people had patience when they are being tested by their unjust ruler, it will not be long before Allāh will give them a way out. However, they always rush for their swords, so they are left with their swords. By Allāh! Not even for a single day did they bring about any good.”

As for your remarks regarding education and modernization. Yes, that is what we are actively working towards. We try and spend us much of our zakat and sadaqa in these efforts. There is a long road ahead of us, but we will succeed, with the will of Allah

It is an admirable trait to have such patience, brother. Indian Muslims have went through quite a difficult time from the begiining, they were always forced to prove loyalty to India and hate for Pakistan. Quaid e Azam had predicted it even.

However the basic point is that it is not necessary that every Muslim need fight against injustice in the same way, the important part is that you fight against it and that we support you in anyway we can, even if its just moral support.

You are very brave, I have never seen an Indian Muslim talk with such bravado and courage before. It is a breath of fresh air. You remind us of our own people of the Muslim League who fought the British and Hindus to make Pakistan.

With dedicated and loyal people like you, Indian Muslims will for a surety gain their freedom and independence. I have no doubt that Allah swt words ring true for all of us.

نصر من اللہ و فتح قریب

 

[21st Century Vampire]

let us make an reverse analogy...Suppose all these things would not have happened in India...Do you think you will consider Hindus of India are any way equivalent to Muslims in general...Or they are always the same evil race....

Perception is one thing, denying right and persecuting is another. The majority of the country i live in are Hindus, Muslims are a significant minority yet they've been living in peace ever since the independence, somehow unaffected by what ugly looking hindutvas are doing in ganguland...it's not as impossible as you make it seem to be

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Hindus hate us. Tell me something new.

Next time we rule, hope Muslims wipe out the pagan filth once and for all.

He is making fair points but there are no other options. They and we cannot accept a new pogrom every year. Muslim homes, mosques and shops being burnt while they themselves are beaten to death on the streets.

They must act and we will support either with financing or direct involvement. Millions of skilled Muslims Mujahideen would migrate to India, to fight off the Hindu extremists.

One question. When?

Realistically 16-17%. However, some states have a greater concentration of Muslims.

• Assam: around 40%
• West Bengal: 30%
• Kerala: 30%
• Uttar Pradesh: 22%

Ideally these should form a new Muslim country and leave Hindu India.

When all 29 of my Hindu class mates believe that Muslims are the source of all problems in India, subject them to constant vilification and constantly believe all the whatsapp filth that is being forwarded, you know there is problem in your society.

But let's leave that for another day. I appreciate your response and let's hope for the best.

Assalam bro/sis.

You are conflicted. One suggestion. Break free from this bond of being an 'Indian'. Just Muslim. No identity crisis.

Perception is one thing, denying right and persecuting is another. The majority of the country i live in are Hindus, Muslims are a significant minority yet they've been living in peace ever since the independence, somehow unaffected by what ugly looking hindutvas are doing in ganguland...it's not as impossible as you make it seem to be

What hindus have done and have been doing for centuries pales ISIS in comparison.

 

[Agha Sher]

One question. When?

Whenever the Muslims in India starts the uprising, support will come.

Remember, the help of Allah is always near.

 

[xeuss]

Assalam bro/sis.

You are conflicted. One suggestion. Break free from this bond of being an 'Indian'. Just Muslim. No identity crisis.

No conflict here. Let's not allow the filth of Hinduism and the depraved Hindu society to steal our identity.

 

[Secularindian]

Hindus hate us. Tell me something new.

Next time we rule, hope Muslims wipe out the pagan filth once and for all.

You Don't deserve a Indian Flag then

@Joe Shearer
They need Your guidance

No conflict here. Let's not allow the filth of Hinduism and the depraved Hindu society to steal our identity.

Why Use Indian Flag then use US

Being A Christian Catholic My self I Will Die For this Land Were My forgathers are buried
Jesus Is My lord as True Savior

 

[xeuss]

Being A Christian Catholic My self I Will Die For this Land Were My forgathers are buried
Jesus Is My lord as True Savior

Cool. More power to you.