American attack aftermath: Pakistan declares attack a 'plot'

[iPhone]

Indians have been posting a lot of insensitive garbage in this thread as we mourn the loss of our brave men. Mods should take strict action of Indian trolling and hand out bans at first sight of such ill posting. This isn't the thread where we should tolerate their usual garbage.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Muje aik baat samaj nahi aa rahi. Hundreds or thousands of innocent Tribals of FATA are killed in drone attacks by US...uss par kisi ne itna shor nahi machaya and now that 30 soldiers are killed, ghairat and temper has raised to the skies and there are talks of war with US...Kyun , civilians ka khoon sasta he aur foji ka mehanga?

 

[unicorn]

Again, after the bombs and missiles from choppers and/or jets were launched, the posts were pretty much destroyed - what weaponry in the PA's arsenal would detect and neutralize these missiles and bombs fired from across the border, in a matter of minutes, if not seconds?

This mentality is actually the problem of everything we are facing today. If we go by logic and numbers than compared to USA we have nothing. But what hurts is when we look country like Iran. Their army is technically and in capability wise inferior in a lot of ways compared to us. But still they are standing against USA, all NATO countries and against Israel and they are doing an excellent job in defending their country. So what is the driving force in this. It is their will.

Lawmaker: Iran shot down unmanned US spy plane - Yahoo! News

Iran shot down just one drone and it brings shivers in the USA.This the the sort of mental attitude that we require.

If we allow outsiders to bomb our own people on our own soil then we cannot expect better things.

 

[patna_ke_presley]

Until the US/NATO forces are in Afghanistan, they need us more than we need them...

They have already started started looking for Alternate routes called Northern Distribution System. Didn't you see the way they embraced Uzbekistan recently and plans to re-route supply through two routes:- There is one Direct Rail line from Riga in Latvia to Mazar e Sharif in Russian gauge and other route through Georgia-Azerbaijan-Tajikistan.
‘A logistics miracle’ - The Washington Post

They would have to bear some extra costs for that.

 

[Jango]

unfortunate timing of course. Its not British army’s fault. This can be deferred for anywhere in the future once this issue is resolved.

by the way, if this incident would have happened to any other country within the NATO forces, their people would have been demanding the return of their troops and be done with America's war on terror.

whenever Americans have killed the British and Canadian forces there has been an uproar in the home countries asking their governments to stop cooperating in America's wars. sadly we have no choice and no where to go NATO is fighting the war next door and pushing its weaker partner in the corner.


there are only 2 possibilities

1. The NATO high command sanctioned the attack knowing what the target was.
2. The NATO troops who called the attack and the pilots who carried out the strike are inept, illiterate and cant use their own NAV systems to see where they are being sent.

The other question apart from the Ariel attack is how far the ground troops had intruded into Pakistan by when they decided to request an air strike on a target 2.5 KM inside Pakistan. What kind of tactical situation is that which needed an attack on a designated post so far away from the border?

Using the air strike as an excuse for coming under fire from the Taliban is also very flimsy, weak and meant for people who are ignorant of the world of military and warfare. What kind of weapons the Taliban were carrying while trying to be as mobile and fast to escape the perusing ISAF/ NATO troops yet be able to fire back at them from miles? Either they were super human who were able to carry medium or heavy mortars and heavy machine guns while running up and down the mountains or they had air transport that was shadowing them to deploy their long range weapons to fire back at the ISAF/ NATO troops? Isn’t it absolute garbage? The best any mobile foot unit can muster is RPGs , light machine guns and light mortars of about 50 mm that cant fire beyond 800 meters. Even the machine gun bullets beyond 1 km and under 2 km will be actually harmlessly falling on the ground. I am not even mentioning RPGs and assault rifles as they don’t go beyond few hundred meters.


Now coming to the excuse of coming under fire from the Pakistani post, same rules apply. Their only long range weapons will be heaver morters or artillery. Had they directed any artillery fire on the NATO forces? If they had then there would have been NATO casualties and people like Glen Beck and O'Reilly would have been chocking blood by now and demanding nuclear strikes on Pakistan.


I will once again highlight the need of the following.

To get the conversation of the pilots and their base that ordered the attack and the conversation during and after the attack. And the conversation of The ground troops that requested the strikes.

How far or close where the NATO troops in the “poorly marked” border?

Now one thing is clear that those air strikes were definitely called upon specifically for those Pakistani posts so again two sub questions

Were the imbeciles on ground aware of the Pakistani posts and deliberately requested their destruction?
Did the dimwits at the NATO mission HQ know what the troops were requesting (attack on Pakistani posts) and then knowingly gave the go ahead?
Did the goons flying the helicopters and the aircraft also know that they were being told to attack 2.5 KM inside Pakistan on the designated posts of their war ally?

The more you think about it and raise questions about it more it seems that either the NATO was reckless, careless and incompetent or overtly vicious and deliberately hostile in its brazen attack. Lets see what the investigations by NATO (for all their worth) show up and if there is any joint team set up to find the facts (I doubt if that will happen) so that its established at which level the mistake was made.
If you ask me, I will put the blame on the mission HQ that took the request and gave the go ahead to the air strikes.

As far as the response of Pakistan is concerned, it should stop the active participation in war on terror and get to the level of support of say Turkey or Russia or say Saudi Arabia. It should fully concentrate on fighting (ONLY) TTP and BLA terrorists and give moral support to the peaceful settlement of the Afghan crises.
Given the circumstances Pakistan is in and the parity of military power between American/ NATO and Pakistan there is nothing much Pakistan can do more than some protests and gearing down the support in WoT. Its not a gang war and a cartel animosity that should lead in reprisal attacks etc so any such suggestions are cheap and stupid. The states don’t work like that no matter how bad the situations get.
When the Soviets shot down the American U2 spy plane that took off from badabir KP, Khrushchev threatened Pakistan by wiping that airbase from the face of the earth for aiding USA. But that’s were it all stopped and the behind the scene diplomacy cooled down the political temperature.

The only positive outcome from this attack is that NATO and the USA are not acting like their characteristic machismo despite what the internet trolls and Fox news fascists wish them to say. Pakistan can ask them what will NATO do to prevent such actions in the future and if its not satisfied it conveys that it will do all it can to protect its land and the lives of its troops from any similar future attacks. Pakistan is already fighting this war on its own expense and the so called aid is not military in nature but the reimbursement for using its facilities and the corridor and that is goin in the government’s pocket so its no longer an incentive to keep it going at the risk of its troops and civilians..

The excuse of 'poorly demarcated border' does not hold water here. If they had crossed the border( which they usually do) , it is fine to an extent. But why did they fire. Was the pilot blind that he did not see a Pakistani flag, a well setup area, with his NVG, IR images? Would be interesting to know whether he shot rockets at it or bullets.

The excuse that they chased militants has been refuted by DG ISPR, saying that the area was cleared long time ago.

Are the NATO troops so inept that they let some taliban run across the border 2.5 km inside Pakistani territory and requested air support?

I refuse to believe that it was a mistake. And if it was a case of mis-identification, then I pity the ISAF forces, for the level of intelligence of their pilots.

 

[Jango]

And the excuse that they were chasing terrorists also gets null and void, after reading the UN mandate, that ISAF is allowed to execute operations within the Afghan border.

And saying that it was a porous border does not cut it either. It was not maps and charts on the ground, it was a helicopter navigation system, probably an Apache helicopter, and territories are easily distinguishable.

 

[longbrained]

This mentality is actually the problem of everything we are facing today. If we go by logic and numbers than compared to USA we have nothing. But what hurts is when we look country like Iran. Their army is technically and in capability wise inferior in a lot of ways compared to us. But still they are standing against USA, all NATO countries and against Israel and they are doing an excellent job in defending their country. So what is the driving force in this. It is their will.

Lawmaker: Iran shot down unmanned US spy plane - Yahoo! News

Iran shot down just one drone and it brings shivers in the USA.This the the sort of mental attitude that we require.

If we allow outsiders to bomb our own people on our own soil then we cannot expect better things.

It is not the will of Iranians. It is actually the "political will" which makes it possible. They directly and continuously issue threats that they will shoot down any aggressor and that they will respond to violence with violence, and this makes any enemy to think twice before firing his gun. Since the anticipated cost is high therefore no guns are fired ever. It is not like US is afraid of Iran what they are afraid of, is the cost of attacking Iran, since they know Iranians will respond whether by shooting down the helicopter or by retaliating against ships etc. UK sanctioned Iran's central bank and Iran expelled British ambassador and down graded ties with UK to consular affairs. If they had done nothing, UK would have been emboldened in their next dealing with Iran. When Pakistan does not respond then NATO gets emboldened next time since they know the costs are minimal and manageable.

 

[Safriz]

Muje aik baat samaj nahi aa rahi. Hundreds or thousands of innocent Tribals of FATA are killed in drone attacks by US...uss par kisi ne itna shor nahi machaya and now that 30 soldiers are killed, ghairat and temper has raised to the skies and there are talks of war with US...Kyun , civilians ka khoon sasta he aur foji ka mehanga?

samajh aaey gi bhi nahii....apney chotay sey damagh per zoor matt doo aur doodh pee kay soo jao.

 

[Jango]

While there are several scenarios being played out here, and various people are being assigned the responsibile for these dead men, will it be going off the reservation to actually look at the role of the Pakistani Army generals in this situation?

US and NATO have been sending messages in various open and closed foras that the Pakistani Army is allowing the Haqqani boys to operate with impunity and sometimes that in plain sight. Even the Pakistani Army at various levels have tacitly acknowledged the goings on and in fact there is now a new justification of "national interest" that has been put forward here. These boys who got slain yesterday were in fact dutifully following this very strategy (purportedly NATO claims that they came under attack while on a counter terrorism operation). Now with the NATO having made the stand very clear on the non-tolerance of such support, it was anyway a given that the gloves are increasingly off and we have evidence of the evolution of that thinking in front of us.

Will it not be apt now to blame the Pakistani generals that in order to protect their Haqqani assets, they are actually forcing the regular servicemen in harms way? These men would have been just following orders and that is their duty. The actual responsibles for the strategy would probably been squirming in Rawalpindi today.

So how is the civilian government then responsible and how is NATO responsible? Do the civilians run the country? NO. Do you expect NATO to let its soldiers die via the Haqqanis just to keep this strategic depth and support of Pakistani Army to terrorism intact? NO. So what then happens? The Generals seemingly will not deviate from this strategy of support to Haqqanis (now national interest) and NATO have anyway shown that they will not tolerate that anymore. So who is to blame when Pakistani soldiers die then? Who suffered when OBL was killed? Was it Pakistan or the Pakistani Army generals? Where does the malaise lie then?

How does haqqani come here?

The area where the Company HQ came under attack was cleared of insurgents long time ago. There is no question of the Haqqani group coming in here.

And why did the NATO forces cross the border, in violation of the UN mandate?

 

[iPhone]

I agree that we need to be more sensitive since the issue is fresh and so is the pain.. But sermons of being sensitive coming from people who habitually refer to the Mumbai carnage as TAMASHA is a little hypocritical.. Dont you think..?? Or do you want me to point out the dozens of posts from someone living comfortably under the protection of ISI

I dont care what score you guys are here to settle, I dont partake in any Indian related events. All I know is what you guys are doing here is wrong and insenstive and should be dealt with extreme prejudice.

 

[Zizou]

It is no rocket science that there are some hidden hands in all this NATO/USA game in Afghanistan who will not want relations with Pakistan to be normal.

Things to think are can we retaliate ??? .... Rational mind would suggest otherwise but what kind of effect will this cold blood killing of our soldiers and citizens on daily basis will have on moral of soldiers and a nation as a whole???? If we sitting in all comforts of the world are so frustrated and ashamed, imagine the frustration of a common soldier ... It will keep on boiling and can lead to divisions amongst the armed forces ...

Should we retaliate ??? We should but not an all out war ... Perhaps the permanent closure of all supply routes ... kick out all americans indefinitely ... stop drone attacks ... but can all this be done with the a$$ licking leaders of ours in charge ??? No, it can't be done and we are bound to suffer more humiliation, frustration and lives ...

What if whole nation comes out on roads ... a revolution and we successfully get rid of these leaders and do what is stated in the above paragraph ??? Will we finally be able to put our nation on the right track ??? A BIG NOOOOOOO ....

In simple words, WAR WILL BE FORCED UPON US WHETHER WE CHOOSE TO FIGHT OR NOT ... If you think USA AND NATO can't risk a war with Pakistan considering their current state of economies, you are so so wrong ... those in charge don't give a damn about common people whether in Pakistan, Afghanistan, USA or Europe ... Life of common man has no meaning to these greedy warmongers. They will kill billions to achieve their objectives ....

WAKE UP PEOPLE ... LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE ... THE BIGGEST AND DEADLIEST WAR IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND IS ABOUT TO ERUPT .... ALL ROADS LEAD TO JERUSALEM !!!

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

They have already started started looking for Alternate routes called Northern Distribution System. Didn't you see the way they embraced Uzbekistan recently and plans to re-route supply through two routes:- There is one Direct Rail line from Riga in Latvia to Mazar e Sharif in Russian gauge and other route through Georgia-Azerbaijan-Tajikistan.
‘A logistics miracle’ - The Washington Post

They would have to bear some extra costs for that.

its not only limited to supply routes. They need us for troops extraction, whenever they do it....

 

[Roybot]

Blame game begins: “Nato came under fire from Pakistan before attack” – The Express Tribune

They came under cross-border fire,” the Western official said.The Afghan official said troops had come under fire from inside Pakistan as they were descending from helicopters, which had returned fire.

Both officials asked not to be named because the attack is so sensitive.

 

[Guest01]

How does haqqani come here?

The area where the Company HQ came under attack was cleared of insurgents long time ago. There is no question of the Haqqani group coming in here.

And why did the NATO forces cross the border, in violation of the UN mandate?

The only institution saying that the area has been cleared of insurgents is the Pakistani Army. And which type of insurgents have been cleared is a question that is anyone can only guess the answer to. The story that NATO strafed "sleeping men" could have bee palatized if it was just one post that was eliminated. Actually 2 posts were eliminated. It has also been later acknowledged that Pakistani men were "returning" fire. So that is pretty much your decision to pick up the misinformaiton of your choice.

Re the UN mandate, Obama made it clear several times that they will do whatever is necessary to protect the US soldiers even if it is going after whoever may be protecting the terrorists. So UN mandate is worth nothing. Even on the corrollary, UN also asks Pakistani army to cease support to terrorists. But that is justified as "national interest". So UN mandate is worth nothing as is evident. What however is pertinent that with this clarity from NATO that they will not leave any stone unturned and will not leave any effort undone in protecting their soldiers from any cover that the terrorist get, who is responsible for the deaths. The men who were just following orders, or NATO who had already warned that they will not allow their soldiers to die just to accomodate a twisted sense of "national interest" of the Pakistani army or will it be the PA generals that you will hold responsible now for these deaths?

 

[iPhone]

what is this NATO came under fire and acted in self defense, justification. THey were in Pakistani air space, what were they expecting?