AMCA Update

[arp2041]

also, let me add that the ch*tiya Mulayam singh almost killed LCA project by closing down its funding for 2 years but the engineers behind LCA team decided to stay put and keep the work going "without" any support from MoD, who had given up their hands on it during 1990's. Had this been private sector project, those engineers would have left to USA already.

Fools have a habit of talking against people behind LCA, without getting any facts on matter.

you are so right, this show how disastrous can it be if sensitive ministries like Defence is given to regional party bosses. This is what i read in firstpost:

When Mulayam Singh Yadav was defence minister in the HD Deve Gowda government in the late 1990s, he was, for all practical purposes, minister in absentia. Preoccupied rather more with defending his political turf in the volatile state of Uttar Pradesh than with affairs of national security, he was happy to let the bureaucrats in his ministry run the show.http://www.firstpost.com/india/how-many-sukhois-must-crash-for-us-to-call-it-a-scandal-156066.html

For the sake of national interest it is of utmost importance that at least sensitive ministries like Defence, foreign, Home & also PM remains with national parties be it BJP or Congress.

 

[Big Boss]

Two things:

- Those who tries always succeed in the end.

- At least we are trying to make a 5th gen plane on our own

 

[sancho]

you sound quite stupid here, just like those ch*tiya IAF-wallah's.

Its not DRDO who is "writing" over-ambitious unrealistic

He is actually on the spot! Ambitious is DRDOs and ADAs most favourite term, the problem is, they have no clue what realistic means, that's why LCA faces these delayes and why they celebrate any babystep in the media and try to fool the public. IAF did not messed up Kaveri or MMR development, they didn't planned to do anything on their own, they didn't jumped into things that were completely out of their capabilities. But the problem in this topic is, that they are doing the same mistakes with AMCA again and that's what's the really stupid thing, because it proves that they didn't learned anything out of their mistakes!

to jump from 2nd gen tech to 4th gen tech is no easy a job

That's the point! It was out of their realistic capabilities, therefor they should have never started to do the important developments alone, but their indigenous pride blinded them and that's why they are critizised by some, while the major part of the public still ignors the facts and why the jump from not even 4th gen to 5th or even 5+ gen like they now claim will be waaay too big again!

& add to that consistent changes in the requirements of the IAF...& sanctions by US post-1998.

Which are just silly excuses, nothing else! IAF wanted a new engine, when it was clear that Kaveri was waaaay too heavy and underpowered to be used (DRDOs failure), they wanted ELTA to join in radar developments when we didn't get it ready (DRDOs failure), they wanted EADS to help on weight and drag issues (ADAs failure). Wrt to sanctions, who told DRDO to go for US techs for LCA although they were Pakistans ally, while we easily could have got save Russian, French and to some extend even Israeli techs? Definitely not IAF and even today they went with USN and initially prefered LM and Boeing to navalise LCA, instead of Mikoyan (Mig 29K) or Dassault (Rafale).
Currently it is even IAF that prefers the indigenous further development of Kaveri engine, while DRDO itself prefers the JV with the French, so how do you really want to blame IAF for beeing responsible or not supporting indigenous developments???

i am of the opinion that HAL & ADA have gained tremendous experience by the development of LCA tejas

Then you are highly mistaken! As I pointed out, they are doing the same mistakes again and making promises they can't hold. LCA does not give them any experience in stealth design, only in useful materials. The important engine and radar developments, that could have been furter developed to be used in AMCA were failures, so either they start at the begining again, or find co-development partners, like they should have done it in LCA as well. To understand what DRDO and ADA learned from LCA, you just need to look at their participation in FGFA. Cockpit layout, use of composite materials, some avionics, minor re-design. All important parts are on their side, because we can't do it today and that's the reality you and some others has to accept. We made major mistakes in the LCA program and that's why things get that bad in an otherwise very good development!

Anybody want to hear my stealth criticisms of the pictured AMCA shown in post #1?

No! Please spare us with your biased and completely false comments, you have started enough blame games, based on nothing.

 

[Angad_NSA]

He is actually on the spot! Ambitious is DRDOs and ADAs most favourite term, the problem is, they have no clue what realistic means, that's why LCA faces these delayes and why they celebrate any babystep in the media and try to fool the public. IAF did not messed up Kaveri or MMR development, they didn't planned to do anything on their own, they didn't jumped into things that were completely out of their capabilities. But the problem in this topic is, that they are doing the same mistakes with AMCA again and that's what's the really stupid thing, because it proves that they didn't learned anything out of their mistakes!

Sancho is full time troll on LCA thread, now you are here too.

Its waste of time to reply to sancho whose head is under the gutter all time.

Then you are highly mistaken! As I pointed out, they are doing the same mistakes again and making promises they can't hold. LCA does not give them any experience in stealth design, only in useful materials. The important engine and radar developments, that could have been furter developed to be used in AMCA were failures, so either they start at the begining again, or find co-development partners, like they should have done it in LCA as well. To understand what DRDO and ADA learned from LCA, you just need to look at their participation in FGFA. Cockpit layout, use of composite materials, some avionics, minor re-design. All important parts are on their side, because we can't do it today and that's the reality you and some others has to accept. We made major mistakes in the LCA program and that's why things get that bad in an otherwise very good development!

oh really?
*yawn*.. goto LCA thread and go through first few pages. Its boring to repeat facts to a troll.

 

[sancho]

Sancho is full time troll on LCA thread, now you are here too.

Its waste of time to reply to sancho whose head is under the gutter all time.

Yeah, because its easier to say I'm a troll then arguing for DRDO or ADA isn't it?

 

[manofwar]

Sancho is full time troll on LCA thread, now you are here too.

Its waste of time to reply to sancho whose head is under the gutter all time.




oh really?
*yawn*.. goto LCA thread and go through first few pages. Its boring to repeat facts to a troll.

Sancho is a much respected Senior Member on this forum.............He has proved himself capable time and again.......
I would suggest you respect him a little more and read carefully what he has written......

Try thinking from the brain instead of the heart this time....

 

[killerx]

should be in thread in future now just a model

 

[Firemaster]

Anybody want to hear my stealth criticisms of the pictured AMCA shown in post #1?

There are some glaring stealth design problems. I won't bother to discuss it if everyone feels it's a preliminary design or no one cares about the issue.

If it is anything other than round nozzles then tell

 

[Firemaster]

The only thing for which I worry is drag issue of LCA. Hope that AMCA won't have this problem.

 

[Black Widow]

Sancho is a much respected Senior Member on this forum.............He has proved himself capable time and again.......
I would suggest you respect him a little more and read carefully what he has written......

Try thinking from the brain instead of the heart this time....

I agree with you, And I agree that Sancho is one of the respected senior member of PDF, But when it come to LCA..... you know what, I agree with other members.

 

[sancho]

I agree with you, And I agree that Sancho is one of the respected senior member of PDF, But when it come to LCA..... you know what, I agree with other members.

You don't have to agree with me, anybody can have his own opinion, but you can't deny the facts! DRDO and ADA are responsible for the main delays and failures of LCA and that's what Angad_NSA is ignoring, just like you to some times as well.

 

[Firemaster]

You don't have to agree with me, anybody can have his own opionion, but you can't deny the facts! DRDO and ADA are responsible for the main delays and failures of LCA and that's what Angad_NSA is ignoring, just like you to some times as well.

Right but It is also wrong that only DRDO and ADA or HAL or GTRE are responsible.

 

[sancho]

Right but It is also wrong that only DRDO and ADA or HAl or GTRE are responsible.

That's why I said for the main delays and failures of LCA, be it engine, radar, overweight, drag issues and imo most of all, for the completely naiv planing!

 

[punjabimunda]

You don't have to agree with me, anybody can have his own opionion, but you can't deny the facts! DRDO and ADA are responsible for the main delays and failures of LCA and that's what Angad_NSA is ignoring, just like you to some times as well.

dude i dont completely agree with. let me explain u why.

when the western coutries started building advanced fighters after ww2 they already had all the basic knowledge of aerodynamics with experience and they definitely were the best in electrical engineering. they had all the facilities for testing and engineers sorted out for develpment. all they had to is to get the project sanctioned from the govt and the plane would fly in less than 4 yrs.


now come to india. in 1980 india was noob in this area we had no labs, wind tunnels, experience or even the most imp a team. we sucked in electronics and no provate company in india was capable of manufacturing anything related to planes. add to that sanctions and western reluctance to share knowledge.


the person who was responsible for designing the plane had a hard time finding an indian engineer who could do aerodynamic characterisation of the plane.

the claw team was set up in 1990 to build the flight control laws due to sanctions.

everything had to built from scratch..

china's j10 took almost 20 yrs. rafale took almost 18 yrs and eurofighter same. if tejas even tool 25 yrs just imagine wht we have gained in this project..

 

[sancho]

dude i dont completely agree with. let me explain u why.

when the western coutries started building advanced fighters after ww2 they already had all the basic knowledge of aerodynamics with experience and they definitely were the best in electrical engineering.

Not exactly, the allied forces took all the techs, jet fighters, rocket techs and even the scientiest from Germany and highly benefited from the know how and experience they gathered duiring WW2. So even they started with help, while DRDO and ADA thought they could do it alone and that is the biggest problem of the LCA project, if they had went with it in a normal and logical way, LCA would have been ready and operational in numbers by now.

now come to india. in 1980 india was noob in this area we had no labs, wind tunnels, experience or even the most imp a team. we sucked in electronics and no provate company in india was capable of manufacturing anything related to planes. add to that sanctions and western reluctance to share knowledge...

Please check post #18 where I already explained that these are just excuses that we made up for DRDO and ADA. Nobody forced us to go with US techs that can be sanctioned, they decided to use them although we had alternatives.