Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[merzifonlu]

even if you contract(lets assume the money is there to pay for 250 in one go), how can one guarantee that they will not interrupt delivery in the middle and say you only ended up with 30 engines before deliveries froze(say an emergency happened, and it was critical for Turkey to launch operations that Germany was likely to oppose),

Why should we pay the money in one go? As the engines are delivered, their money is transferred to their account. There is no guarantee that they will deliver the engines, that is true. But they have signatures to guarantee they'll be sued.

I said before, I think they would never sign that contract. In this way, we set out knowing the situation from the beginning.

There are no design flaws in the MTU+Renk power pack, these are the technology matured parts. If there will be a defect, there will be a defect in our tank design.

Anyway, it's happened. Now we have only one goal: to successfully manufacture the Batu power pack. Technologies for the rest of Altay are ready, some even received updates.

 

[Foinikas]

OMG You are truly such a looser!

Again, it is irrelevant, neither the M-60 was necessary to be mentioned nor the Leo, it was just again a chest-bumping act of provocation, trolling and most likely intended as to eagerly feel offended and insult in return!!

Deino is part of the troll team. Ignorant Deino! First learn about military history and great Turkish defence industry.

What I wanted to say is Turkish version of Type 10 with nano crystal steel and active protection is what we realy need..

The thing with Type 10 though is that it's one of the most expensive tanks in the world. And we really don't know how effective this Japanese armor is. We've both been using German tanks for decades,the Germans are among the top craftsmen when it comes to tanks and armored vehicles. Wouldn't they have used something like this immidiately? But then again...they have their own philosophy.

 

[hyperman]

But they have signatures to guarantee they'll be sued.

Brother, you will have as much luck clawing that money back as the Russians will have in getting their frozen assets(some of it which has been transferred to Ukraine, to use Russian money to fight Russians) in european banks back. But you are right, it could have been paid in installments, no need for all at once..

There are no design flaws in the MTU+Renk power pack, these are the technology matured parts. If there will be a defect, there will be a defect in our tank design.

yeah thats what I meant, the MTU engine was streamlined for the Leopard, but often times these engines are modified to spec for other customers, sometimes the platform designer notices that they might have put too much armor, and they need an uprated version of the engine. sometimes its a durability issue b/c the terrain that is different than what the ideal terrain for the the Leopard that it was designed for(for example, the Leclerc that the UAE bought didn't have the same performance in hot and desert climates b/c it was designed for europe, so they had to change the engine on it). Sometimes you tell the manufacturer you need an uprated engine, sometimes you tell them to make it more durable and give up some performance. Other examples exist in other systems as well, GE for example designed like 5 different versions of its 414 turbofan depending on the customer, and specifications and modifications they wanted, after initial testing.

 

[MMM-E]

URBAN WARFARE


Leopard2 lacks in urban warfare ....
we have seen Leo2 in Syria and we modernized our Tanks for urban warfare

what about Greek Army Leopard-2HEL Tanks ?

NO hard kill Active Protection System
NO Close Range Surveillance System
NO Telescopic Periscope System
NO Beyond Armor Vision System
NO even Remote Weapon Platform

easy target in urban warfare

Turkish Army modernized M-60TM Tanks have superior capability for urban warfare

German MTU Engine and RENK 304S Transmission
İsraeli 120 mm Gun , RWR/IR warning systems from the Merkava IV Tank

-- Volkan-M new generation Fire Control System
-- Tank Command Control Combat Information System
-- New Explosive Reactive Armor ERA
-- The hybrid electric and hydraulic system
-- Tank Laser Warning System (TLUS)
-- Tank Driver Vision System (TDVS)
-- Fire Suppression System
-- Smoke Grenade Launchers
-- Air Conditioning System
-- Auxiliary Power Unit and Audible Warning System
-- 12,7mm SARP Stabilized Advanced Remote Weapon Platform

PULAT hard kill Active Protection System
Close Range Surveillance System (YAMGÖZ)
Telescopic Periscope System (TEPES)
Interior Primer Protection (SPALL LINER)
Beyond Armor Vision System ( BITES )

 

[LegionnairE]

Honestly this Tank issue is a mess for this country, I don't think I'm an expert in the tank field but that Leopards and maybe Altay can serve very well in Syria with greater efficiency but can they show same effect in Northern Iraq and other potential fronts? This is the big issue for me

On the mountains? If the Leopard 2 can't climb it, it's very unlikely that Kaplan MT or any other vehicle can... it's not an issue of weight.

I've given this much thought and if you want to have any mobility with heavy weapons, horses are the only option. You can tow 50 cals, mortars, possibly 35mm autocannons.

And if a soldier is on horseback, there will be less fear of land mines.

In Turkey we always look for high-tech solutions and we scoff at low tech solutions but sometimes they are the best.

Darpa funded this project:

But the US army looked at it and realized that it's moronic to pay for a robotic pack mule when an organic one gets the job done.

Leopard2 lacks in urban warfare ....
we have seen Leo2 in Syria and we modernized our Tanks for urban warfare

And this is nonsense. Any tank can be upgraded to be effective in urban warfare. M1 Abrams TUSK 2 is a good example.

 

[MMM-E]

And this is nonsense. Any tank can be upgraded to be effective in urban warfare. M1 Abrams TUSK 2 is a good example.

This is reality
and I am not talking about M1A2 TUSK 2 , I am talking about Leopard2A6-HEL

Of course any Tank can be upgraded to be effective in urban warfare
We did it with M-60TM Tank

but now , Leopard2A6-HEL is not effective in urban warfare

 

[LegionnairE]

This is reality
and I am not talking about M1A2 TUSK 2 , I am talking about Leopard2A6-HEL

Of course any Tank can be upgraded to be effective in urban warfare
We did it with M-60TM Tank

but now , Leopard2A6-HEL is not effective in urban warfare

Yeah it's not the fault of the Leopard 2 platform. It's the fault of the Greeks for not upgrading them at all in the last 10 years.
We did the same stupid shit.

We didn't upgrade our leopard 2s, and a bunch of them got blown up in Syria.
The pattern is very clear. We spent too much time with Greeks

 

[MMM-E]

Yeah it's not the fault of the Leopard 2 platform. It's the fault of the Greeks for not upgrading them at all in the last 10 years.
We did the same stupid shit.

We didn't upgrade our leopard 2s, and a bunch of them got blown up in Syria.
The pattern is very clear. We spent too much time with Greeks

Send Greek Leopard2A6-HEL to Syria for urban warfare , then see what will happen

Greek Leopard2A6-HEL will suffer the same fate with Turkish Leopard2s

We learned a painful lesson in Syria
and we modernized our Tanks for urban warfare

Americans also upgraded their Tanks to M1A2 TUSK-2 for urban warfare

Other NATO Countries are still sleeping ....

 

[LegionnairE]

Greek Leopard2A6-HEL will suffer the same fate with Turkish Leopard2s

This is actually correct but as usual, you're missing the point.

This was the Turkish upgrade pack, not Leopard 2 A6HEL. This would prevent all losses in Syria. But our government deemed it too expensive.

Our soldiers paid for this stupidity with their lives.

Leopard 2A7 Addresses these issues but the Greek government didn't get this upgrade

Same pattern of behavior.

At least for Greece you could say that there's less urgency. They aren't at war in Syria, Iraq etc.

 

[MMM-E]

This was the Turkish upgrade pack, not Leopard 2 A6HEL. This would prevent all losses in Syria. But our government deemed it too expensive.

Our soldiers paid for this stupidity with their lives.

I remember this Leopard2NG modernization project $5 million per Tank
but cancelled

now BMC modernize Leopard2A4s

OTOKAR's urban warfare option for ALTAY Tank

Politicans made many mistakes
since 2011, Turkiye spent $80-90 billion for humanitarian aid including 3,6 million refugees in Turkiye

but Turkish Air Force still use museum F-4s
Turkish Army entered Syria with old and incapacitated Tanks in 2016
and many more

Politicians did not allocate enough budget for the Turkish Armed Forces
even tiny Israel spend more than Turkiye

 

[LegionnairE]

I remember this Leopard2NG modernization project $5 million for per Tank
but cancelled

750 million for Ankapark fiasco

Ankapark: Mansur YavaÅ'ın '750 milyon dolar harcandı' dediÄi eÄlence parkı hakkında neler biliniyor? - BBC News Türkçe

Ankara BüyükÅehir Belediye BaÅkanı (ABB) Mansur YavaÅ, batmakta olduÄunu duyurduÄu Ankapark'ın baÅkent belediyesine maliyetinin 750 milyon dolar olduÄu açıkladı. YavaÅ, "Bu para, belediyenin ailelere yaptıÄı yardımı 30 yıl boyunca karÅılardı" dedi. Fundanur Ãztürk; Ankapark'ın...

www.bbc.com

An ungodly amount of money spent on ridiculous projects such as Zafer Airport (1.3 million guaranteed passengers, 24 thousand actual)

How many billion dollars for Erdo's palace?

These are not genuine mistakes. This is pure and simple corruption. Certain construction companies need to keep making money. Certain pockets have to be filled.

If greeks were doing stupid shit like this, we would laugh at them.

Refugee thing is even more egregious. We're paying for the arabization of Turkey.

 

[Georg]

Not exactly, the TF-X project project is older in the sense that design work was going on far before it ever got officially announced(also subcomponents from other projects and experience from the f-16 and f-25 programs also mean that the work wasn't fully from scratch). With regards to the Altay, the issue is over mass production, not the development of the tank. technically the Altay was already developed much earlier, in fact the first prototypes with the German powerplant as you know was produced much earlier, the problem is that the syrian war happened, and with the emergence of the PKK, forced Turkey's hand in an intervention, which resulted in Germany suspending sales of the powerpack with which it was supposed to go into mass production with. This caused an issue where for some time, several years were wasted in trying to convince the German govt to allow the sale of the powerpack, but with no breakthrough, the decision was made to redesign the tank using the South Korean powerplant, and now if the tests of the new tank with the south korean powerplant is set to begin as the initual prototypes are set for delivery in May, if that goes well, and the south korean powerplant is going to be used in the mass production, then later down the road, a turkish powerplant(engine should be finished first, then transmission) is set to be delivered, and block 2 mass production will be with the Turkish powerplant, similar to how the Korean used the German powerplant for their initial mass production of the K2 Panther, then switched to a korean engine with a german transmission and now set to in a short while, fully switch over to a korean powerpack.



How many MTU MT883 Ka-500 do they produce though? I don't believe they are produced in the same volume as regular commercial diesel engines. Tank engines and transmissions are a bit complicated.

they dont build regular engines at all... the MTU MT883 is a small diesel engine for MTU...and just for the record this engine is also used as power generator and as small ship engine

 

[LegionnairE]

They are trying to attack Otokar now because Altay project blew up in their face.

They ruined this project and now they are trying to shift the blame to the company that successfully developed it, got it ready for mass production.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1615652541814931456

 

[aziqbal]

Send Greek Leopard2A6-HEL to Syria for urban warfare , then see what will happen

Greek Leopard2A6-HEL will suffer the same fate with Turkish Leopard2s

We learned a painful lesson in Syria
and we modernized our Tanks for urban warfare

Americans also upgraded their Tanks to M1A2 TUSK-2 for urban warfare

Other NATO Countries are still sleeping ....

but why did Turkey send the Leopards into Urban combat at Battle of Al-Bab ?

 

[MMM-E]

but why did Turkey send the Leopards into Urban combat at Battle of Al-Bab ?

because in 2016 there was not M60-TM Tank which modernized for urban warfare after 2017


in 2016 Turkiye sent Leopard2A4, M60T and M60A3 Tanks to Syria