Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[Foinikas]

And waiter Foinikas dreaming about 170

I'm not a waiter. Maybe YOU are?

We prefer Turkish M60TM Tank instead of Greek Leopard2HEL Tank for urban warfare

Where's the urban warfare? You lost tank crews in Syria and THEN upgraded the tanks. Stop bragging. Your tanks too can be easily destroyed by air.

 

[LegionnairE]

Realy mentality ill People who says everything is AKP propaganda
They can attack only ALTAY Tank ..
on the other hand 756 projects of 757 led by ERDOGAN between 2003 and 2023


BMC POWER 1.000 hp and 1.500 hp Engines to power FIRTINA Howitzer and ALTAY Tank in 2025



And waiter Foinikas dreaming about 170 Leopard2HEL6 with tiny weak Greek Army which can not stop even 60 km ALPAGUT kamikaze Drones ( IIR+TV .. 11 kg warhead to turn enemy Tanks into crap of metal )

even I am not talking about 40km TRLG-122 and 70 km TRLG-230 laser guided MLRS to hit even moving Tanks

also land based 40 km KUZGUN-KY and 180 km KUZGUN-TJ missiles are on the way to hit even moving Tanks

even I am not talking about 250+ UCAVs


Greek Tanks can not even reach to fight Turkish Army



Turkish Army has enough Tanks to wait for more 2-3 years for mass production of ALTAY

M60TM and Leopard2 Tanks to be modernized ...

even M60TM is better than Leopard2HEL6 in urban warfare

what about Greek Army Leopard-2HEL Tanks ?

NO hard kill Active Protection System
NO Close Range Surveillance System
NO Telescopic Periscope System
NO Beyond Armor Vision System
NO Remote Weapon Platform


Turkish Army modernized M-60TM Tanks have superior capability

German MTU Engine and RENK 304S Transmission
İsraeli 120 mm Gun , RWR/IR warning systems from the Merkava IV Tank

-- Volkan-M new generation Fire Control System
-- Tank Command Control Combat Information System
-- New Explosive Reactive Armor ERA
-- The hybrid electric and hydraulic system
-- Tank Laser Warning System (TLUS)
-- Tank Driver Vision System (TDVS)
-- Fire Suppression System
-- Smoke Grenade Launchers
-- Air Conditioning System
-- Auxiliary Power Unit and Audible Warning System
-- 12,7mm SARP Stabilized Advanced Remote Weapon Platform
-- PULAT hard kill Active Protection System

Close Range Surveillance System (YAMGÖZ)
Telescopic Periscope System (TEPES)
Interior Primer Protection (SPALL LINER)
Beyond Armor Vision System ( BITES )

What a technology ...

We prefer Turkish M60TM Tank instead of Greek Leopard2HEL Tank for urban warfare

Bla bla bla bla... nobody reads this spam.

Altay was supposed to begin production in 2016, we're in 2023 This is a bigger ****-up than Indian Arjun. so STFU with unrelated shit.

 

[hyperman]

Altay was supposed to begin production in 2016, we're in 2023

Yeah.. and then things happened regarding an embargo over the intervention against the PKK in Syria..

The plan was to use the best in class engine and transmission from Germany, and then later down the road develop domestic power packs for later versions. IMO its not a bad plan, if you try to do all things at once, that has liabilities too, just look at the HAL Tejas, the indians tried to develop the engine at the same time as building the aircraft. what happened is that the engine development didn't go as planned and that delayed production and held up parts of the project that were already finished and waiting on integration of other systems. The Tejas project only got rescued after the aircraft was decoupled from the domestic engine project allowing other parts of the project to go forward with a foreign imported powerplant . There is no magic bullet in development philosophy, you make choices between speed of development/production and complete control via a domestic supplychain, and sometimes unforeseen things happen.

There was no expectation of an embargo over the Syria operation against the PKK, or PKK lobbying in Europe. Now if you want to argue that the operation against the PKK state south of Turkey's border was not worth having the blowback on the Altay, thats a different point. IMO the mistake Turkey made was allowing the relationship between the PKK and the US to be created. Turkey should have launched a Euphrates Shield operation in 2014(when the Kobane thing was happening and the US decided to give the PKK air support to expand their controlled territory and take back areas from Daesh), to create a buffer zone on the border with syrian partners, and then allow a safezone there for refugees. Though Turkey was a bit gunshy about going into Syria, and instead the PKK capitalized and the US got stuck with the reliance on the PKK.

This is a bigger ****-up than Indian Arjun.

How so? The Arjun design started in 1983, and till date the Indian Army rejected the tank, and even now its struggling with indigenization of components. Altay got started in 2008. The K2 Black Panther for reference started in the design phase in 1995, and only began production in 2008, and still having only recently coming to being fully self sufficient in powerpack design, with Lot 4 that is supposed to use a korean transmission still not in production yet. Development is not as fast as Turkey would have liked and some problems with embargoes came that were not expected, but trying to act like its the same for a tank that got started in the design phase in 1983 is a bit inaccurate, don't let your political biases cloud your technical assessments.

 

[MMM-E]

Bla bla bla bla... nobody reads this spam.

Altay was supposed to begin production in 2016, we're in 2023 This is a bigger ****-up than Indian Arjun. so STFU with unrelated shit.

Nobody cares about your butthurt feelings and political biases
We have our own agenda step by step
Arjun is another story ... ALTAY is under engine embargo as like FIRTINA Howitzer

and BMC POWER will solve engine problem
1.000 hp and 1.500 hp Engines to power FIRTINA Howitzer and ALTAY Tank in 2025

400 hp , 600 hp engines enter mass production to power Military vehicles

Where's the urban warfare? You lost tank crews in Syria and THEN upgraded the tanks. Stop bragging. Your tanks too can be easily destroyed by air.

now in Ukraine

I am talking about urban warfare
waiter Foinikas says Your tanks can be easily destroyed by air.

every Tank can be easily destroyed by air.

 

[merzifonlu]

BMC POWER will solve engine problem
1.000 hp and 1.500 hp Engines to power FIRTINA Howitzer and ALTAY Tank in 2025

I hope this comes true. I wish this with all my heart. Because the Altay project cannot be saved without the domestic power package. Forget about any foreign source. They only give for prototypes.

 

[hyperman]

They only give for prototypes.

Whats the point of building prototypes if ypu arent going to mass produce with the same powerpack? there were already prototypes built with the MTU/RENK powerpack, in the development of the tank. I believe initial production and Lot 1 will use the Korean Powerpack, around the same time as Lot 4 production for the K2 Black Panther(using the same Hyundai Engine and SNT Transmission) starts.

Production needs to start ASAP, waiting for the Turkish Powerpack would delay the full operation of production lines and all other aspects of the project. And by the time the powerpack arrives, the other subcomponents of the tank will need to be upgraded and modernized. it doesn't make sense to delay.

Take the K2 Black Panther for example, if the Koreans didn't begin mass production in 2008, for a tank designed in 1995, they would technically still be waiting till today, while having the other subcomponents developed get outdated. Technically not a single K2 Black Panther has been built yet(lot 4 is supposed to be transmission) with a fully Korean Power yet, all 260 tanks built so far, even the exports to Poland are using the RENK Transmission.

Project development is tricky, and you have to take calculated risks, to balance between project timelines, performance, and complete control of supply chains. You can get to the fastest production by using off the shelf imported parts, but you would be dependent on your suppliers. You could go at it, trying to develop everything inhouse all at once, but then your project timeline would be delayed and possibly uncertain, b/c its dependent on the successful development of subcomponents. The balanced approach is to carry projects out in a balanced "Ship of Theseus", sort of way, where the easiest parts to develop you develop first and inhouse, the hardest parts you source from a reliable source with calculated risk, and over time you completely indigenize the project. this way production is not significantly delayed, there are profits from in from sales, and more revenue for additional development, your mass production infrastructure isn't stuck waiting for development, and you continue to optimize from field use input and with funds generated from sales..

 

[merzifonlu]

Whats the point of building prototypes if ypu arent going to mass produce with the same powerpack?

Thats point! Bravo.

i) Foreign engines to be used in the prototype will also be engines planned for mass production and will be purchased in large numbers in advance and put into storage. As in the case of the Kızılelma.

ii) The other option is that the domestic power pack will be used first for prototypes and then for mass production. As in Aksungur example.

The Altay project model was a very faulty model. It didn't fit either of the options I listed above. I haven't even counted the other big mistakes made by the AKP administration!

The mistake made in the Altay example was this: Previously, at least 250 MTU+Renk power packs should have been purchased and put into storage. Did the Germans cause trouble? At that time, Altay would have been designed lighter.

 

[hyperman]

As in the case of the Kızılelma.

Bayraktar bought Ukrainian engines in mass already? I thought they had only acquired a few for prototype testing. something seems off, Ukraine was really able to produce that man engines in the short time that the deal was announced and the war started?

The other option is that the domestic power pack will be used first for prototypes and then for mass production. As in Aksungur example.

The problem with this analogy IMO, is that the Aksungur is based on the much of the development of the Anka drone, and the Anka drone was initially using a Thielert Centurion engine that was imported from Germany, only later Anka drones switched to the domestic engine when it was delivered much later. Without the Centurion engine, the Anka would have not gone into significant production from the start. Similarly it relied initially on the WESCAM sensors, way before Aseslan developed a domestic sensor. The Aksungur wasn't developed independently, its development was dependent on reuse of components and shared parts from the Anka.

at least 250 MTU+Renk power packs should have been purchased and put into storage.

This is very difficult to do, initial budget concerns aside, MTU is no capable of just building so many engines and then deliver them in a short time, they also have other orders to other customers, these contracts get signed, and slowly the engines get delivered a few at a time, in batches. Its also very difficult to have these engines just be bought(assuming you even have the money in the budget to pay everything all in one go, and MTU by some miracle deciding to ignore all their other customers and only working on your order) and then store them, without degradation issues occurring with engines just sitting for a long time in storage.

Another issue with the MTU engines is that they unlike Anka or Aksungur engines, have no civil commercial equivalent, one of the reasons as to by the TB-2 was able to get engines and it was hard to embargo, was b/c of its use of off the shelf parts, whose supply chains are very difficult to control for any Country or company, Rotax didnt even know their engines were being used, b/c Bayraktar was buying them from third parties off the commercial civilian market.

 

[Foinikas]

The Altay project model was a very faulty model. It didn't fit either of the options I listed above. I haven't even counted the other big mistakes made by the AKP administration!

The mistake made in the Altay example was this: Previously, at least 250 MTU+Renk power packs should have been purchased and put into storage. Did the Germans cause trouble? At that time, Altay would have been designed lighter.

What's weird...is that ok,the Altay has been a project far older than the TFX,if I'm not mistaken. And a far simpler project than making a 5th generation stealth fighter. Now here's the thing,how can the government and the Turkish defence industry,announce a maiden flight so fast? And it's defence experts and analysts who wonder about it,how can you rush the first flight 2-3 years earlier than planned,even if you work like crazy. How can a newcomer country design and fly a fighter jet in less than 10 years? Unless the government is pushing for it to be ready,even if it still has a lot of work.

 

[Georg]

Bayraktar bought Ukrainian engines in mass already? I thought they had only acquired a few for prototype testing. something seems off, Ukraine was really able to produce that man engines in the short time that the deal was announced and the war started?



The problem with this analogy IMO, is that the Aksungur is based on the much of the development of the Anka drone, and the Anka drone was initially using a Thielert Centurion engine that was imported from Germany, only later Anka drones switched to the domestic engine when it was delivered much later. Without the Centurion engine, the Anka would have not gone into significant production from the start. Similarly it relied initially on the WESCAM sensors, way before Aseslan developed a domestic sensor. The Aksungur wasn't developed independently, its development was dependent on reuse of components and shared parts from the Anka.



This is very difficult to do, initial budget concerns aside, MTU is no capable of just building so many engines and then deliver them in a short time, they also have other orders to other customers, these contracts get signed, and slowly the engines get delivered a few at a time, in batches. Its also very difficult to have these engines just be bought(assuming you even have the money in the budget to pay everything all in one go, and MTU by some miracle deciding to ignore all their other customers and only working on your order) and then store them, without degradation issues occurring with engines just sitting for a long time in storage.

Another issue with the MTU engines is that they unlike Anka or Aksungur engines, have no civil commercial equivalent, one of the reasons as to by the TB-2 was able to get engines and it was hard to embargo, was b/c of its use of off the shelf parts, whose supply chains are very difficult to control for any Country or company, Rotax didnt even know their engines were being used, b/c Bayraktar was buying them from third parties off the commercial civilian market.

just for the record MTU produce of 20.000 large to superlarge diesel engines a year... 250 would not make them sweat at all

 

[Deino]

Realy mentality ill People who says everything is AKP propaganda
They can attack only ALTAY Tank ..
on the other hand 756 projects of 757 led by ERDOGAN between 2003 and 2023


BMC POWER 1.000 hp and 1.500 hp Engines to power FIRTINA Howitzer and ALTAY Tank in 2025



And waiter Foinikas dreaming about 170 Leopard2HEL6 with tiny weak Greek Army which can not stop even 60 km ALPAGUT kamikaze Drones ( IIR+TV .. 11 kg warhead to turn enemy Tanks into crap of metal )

even I am not talking about 40km TRLG-122 and 70 km TRLG-230 laser guided MLRS to hit even moving Tanks

also land based 40 km KUZGUN-KY and 180 km KUZGUN-TJ missiles are on the way to hit even moving Tanks

even I am not talking about 250+ UCAVs


Greek Tanks can not even reach to fight Turkish Army



Turkish Army has enough Tanks to wait for more 2-3 years for mass production of ALTAY

M60TM and Leopard2 Tanks to be modernized ...

even M60TM is better than Leopard2HEL6 in urban warfare

what about Greek Army Leopard-2HEL Tanks ?

NO hard kill Active Protection System
NO Close Range Surveillance System
NO Telescopic Periscope System
NO Beyond Armor Vision System
NO Remote Weapon Platform


Turkish Army modernized M-60TM Tanks have superior capability

German MTU Engine and RENK 304S Transmission
İsraeli 120 mm Gun , RWR/IR warning systems from the Merkava IV Tank

-- Volkan-M new generation Fire Control System
-- Tank Command Control Combat Information System
-- New Explosive Reactive Armor ERA
-- The hybrid electric and hydraulic system
-- Tank Laser Warning System (TLUS)
-- Tank Driver Vision System (TDVS)
-- Fire Suppression System
-- Smoke Grenade Launchers
-- Air Conditioning System
-- Auxiliary Power Unit and Audible Warning System
-- 12,7mm SARP Stabilized Advanced Remote Weapon Platform
-- PULAT hard kill Active Protection System

Close Range Surveillance System (YAMGÖZ)
Telescopic Periscope System (TEPES)
Interior Primer Protection (SPALL LINER)
Beyond Armor Vision System ( BITES )

What a technology ...

We prefer Turkish M60TM Tank instead of Greek Leopard2HEL Tank for urban warfare

Can you simply for one moment leave out your BS propaganda!?
Neither is the T-60M nor the Leo and especially not an insult against any Greek tanks relevant nor necessary!
It's just again your stupid way of provoking, insulting with off topic side-kicks and trolling!

 

[merzifonlu]

Bayraktar bought Ukrainian engines in mass already?

Yes. Selçuk Bayraktar said that at least 20 engines were purchased and put into storage. This number is sufficient to meet the production until the domestic engine, namely TEI TF10000.

The Aksungur wasn't developed independently, its development was dependent on reuse of components and shared parts from the Anka.

Yes, Aksungur was not developed independently. She is the product of a process that started with Anka. But remember, when that process started, our relations with Western countries were not that bad. If Aksungur were designed from scratch nowadays, Aksungur would have been designed with TEI PD-170 engine and Aselsan CATS. She is already flying with them.

This is very difficult to do, initial budget concerns aside, MTU is no capable of just building so many engines and then deliver them in a short time,

It's not about MTU producing and delivering these power packs in a short time. Contracting the supply of power packs, that's the point. If they signed, they would have delivered the 250 power packs on time. We would have designed the tank with peace of mind to fit the German power pack.

But I think the Germans would have avoided signing this contract, I am one hundred percent sure of that. Then we would design the tank in accordance with the power package of the supplier that will sign this contract and we would not fall into this trap.

 

[Trisolaran]

What's weird...is that ok,the Altay has been a project far older than the TFX,if I'm not mistaken. And a far simpler project than making a 5th generation stealth fighter. Now here's the thing,how can the government and the Turkish defence industry,announce a maiden flight so fast? And it's defence experts and analysts who wonder about it,how can you rush the first flight 2-3 years earlier than planned,even if you work like crazy. How can a newcomer country design and fly a fighter jet in less than 10 years? Unless the government is pushing for it to be ready,even if it still has a lot of work.

Most of the operations carried out by the Turkish forces are against terrorist organizations fighting in guerrilla style and tanks are barely used in this type of warfare, the tank inventory of all our competitors, except Greece, is weak. This is why the most of the investments are spend on the air force and the navy, if we do not take the right steps for the air force now, it can turn into our soft belly in 5 years. But ground forces will be fine.
And biggest reason why the TFX project is going so fast is that Turkey was one of the countries that produce some F35 parts and produced the F16s under license. So we didnt start TFX project without zero experience

 

[MMM-E]

Can you simply for one moment leave out your BS propaganda!?
Neither is the T-60M nor the Leo and especially not an insult against any Greek tanks relevant nor necessary!
It's just again your stupid way of provoking, insulting with off topic side-kicks and trolling!

Reality hurts you

M60TM far better than Leopard2HEL in urban warfare
real military experts very well knows about it

what about Greek Army Leopard-2HEL Tanks ?

NO hard kill Active Protection System
NO Close Range Surveillance System
NO Telescopic Periscope System
NO Beyond Armor Vision System
NO even Remote Weapon Platform


Turkish Army modernized M-60TM Tanks have superior capability for urban warfare

German MTU Engine and RENK 304S Transmission
İsraeli 120 mm Gun , RWR/IR warning systems from the Merkava IV Tank

-- Volkan-M new generation Fire Control System
-- Tank Command Control Combat Information System
-- New Explosive Reactive Armor ERA
-- The hybrid electric and hydraulic system
-- Tank Laser Warning System (TLUS)
-- Tank Driver Vision System (TDVS)
-- Fire Suppression System
-- Smoke Grenade Launchers
-- Air Conditioning System
-- Auxiliary Power Unit and Audible Warning System
-- 12,7mm SARP Stabilized Advanced Remote Weapon Platform
-- PULAT hard kill Active Protection System

Close Range Surveillance System (YAMGÖZ)
Telescopic Periscope System (TEPES)
Interior Primer Protection (SPALL LINER)
Beyond Armor Vision System ( BITES )


We have great real experience for urban warfare in Syria
and we modernized our Tanks for urban warfare


Foinikas using DEINO to spam my posts ...enough trolling and provoking

@WebMaster , @Kompromat , @waz

 

[Georg]

Reality hurts you

M60TM far better than Leopard2HEL in urban warfare
real military experts very well knows about it

what about Greek Army Leopard-2HEL Tanks ?

NO hard kill Active Protection System
NO Close Range Surveillance System
NO Telescopic Periscope System
NO Beyond Armor Vision System
NO even Remote Weapon Platform


Turkish Army modernized M-60TM Tanks have superior capability for urban warfare

German MTU Engine and RENK 304S Transmission
İsraeli 120 mm Gun , RWR/IR warning systems from the Merkava IV Tank

-- Volkan-M new generation Fire Control System
-- Tank Command Control Combat Information System
-- New Explosive Reactive Armor ERA
-- The hybrid electric and hydraulic system
-- Tank Laser Warning System (TLUS)
-- Tank Driver Vision System (TDVS)
-- Fire Suppression System
-- Smoke Grenade Launchers
-- Air Conditioning System
-- Auxiliary Power Unit and Audible Warning System
-- 12,7mm SARP Stabilized Advanced Remote Weapon Platform
-- PULAT hard kill Active Protection System

Close Range Surveillance System (YAMGÖZ)
Telescopic Periscope System (TEPES)
Interior Primer Protection (SPALL LINER)
Beyond Armor Vision System ( BITES )
We have great real experience for urban warfaere in Syria
and we modernized our Tanks for urban warfaere


Foinikas using DEINO to spam my posts ...enough trolling and provoking

@WebMaster , @Kompromat , @waz

how many M-60TM are already in service?