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Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

Unbelievable, even though everything is happening before our very eyes - and to add to that as predicted by many in this forum, some people here are vehement in denying that anything is wrong at all.

BMC just declared they're essentially re-designing a tank (that was finished) - and people are actually cheering this? They can't even manufacture the product as-is and that is a good thing now?

They're lying out of their teeth - how is it that more people aren't up in arms about this? We need those tanks YESTERDAY!
 
At the end of the day there is no argument here for anyone that supports the re-design comment.

The Altay passed military trials. It is ready for introduction to our armed forces and met its requirements. You either support the production and delivery of the Altay in its current format which exceeded military trials. Or you support continuing to make our troops drive around in M60s or even worse - Leopards.

There are people here saying everyone thinks they are an expert. No but dont you think the military officials who tested and certified the Altay in its current format are experts. Or do you think you know more than these officials ?

Get a grip. You either agree with BMC (no expertise in tank development / use) or you agree with our military - who said current prototype is ready for fielding. Or are you going to say the military are not experts either ?
 
Ok so I did some search

Could anyone provide BMC announcement they are re-designing the tank or even doing a 10 ton reduction
I was unable to find government or company announcements or statements, all I saw was the tweet can anyone give me a link or so ??

Dont tell me all of this ended as result of something untrue and no such re-design is happening
 
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Ok so I did some search

Could anyone provide BMC announcement they are re-designing the tank or even doing a 10 ton reduction
I was unable to find government or company announcements or statements, all I saw was the tweet can anyone give me a link or so ??

Dont tell me all of this ended as result of something untrue and no such reduction is happening

Source is BMC board of managment member Yasin Öztürk.

Link: http://www.milscint.com/tr/soylesi-bmc-yonetim-kurulu-uyesi-t-yasin-ozturk-6/

"Bu tankı hafifletmemiz gerekiyor ve ağırlığın çok büyük bir bölümünü, tankın gövdesi, yani zırhı oluşturuyor. Prototipler, 70 ton civarında bir ağırlığa sahip. Tankın koruma seviyesinden feragat etmeden, ağırlığı 60 tonun altına çekebilmeyi hedefliyoruz. "

Translation:
We need to lighten this tank and most of the weight is composed of tanks body; its armor. Prototypes are around 70 tons. We are aiming to reduce the weight under 60 tons without comprimising tank's protection level.

I personally think that BMC do not have the capability of reducing the weight of this tank without comprimise. You just can not reduce the wight from armor THAT MUCH without having a really incredible R&D, long years, hell lot of money. If you do that without having decades of R&D and its know how you will need to build a new R&D branch with incredibly rare scientists who will succeed in a shorter time with great amount of money. (those researchs will need a ton of money if you are not a firm with high end R&D already like lockhead martin etc.) IF THEY CAN accomplish that; it will result with that tank's cost to fly dramaticly and it is certain for a delay probably at least 5-10 years.

BMC is not a firm that can find a way to reduce weight of a tank 10 tons FROM ARMOR without coprimise. So; that is a plain LIE! If Roketsan said that I would say that would be possible. (They have great scientists and a great cumulative know how) When BMC says that... C'mon. It is like me saying that I will build an elevator to space by only using wood.

BTW; for those guys who advocates words of BMC guy without even thinking and calling people names like "ooh tank expeeert" I can talk about this because I have background on materials and this is the expertise you need to comment on "weight reduction without comprimising material properties". "A tank expert" (which is undefined) is not the expert you are looking for. So; please consider this before calling me tank expert. (And now we are looking for possible conflicts by some people. I even miss hurshit)
 
Source is BMC board of managment member Yasin Öztürk.

Link: http://www.milscint.com/tr/soylesi-bmc-yonetim-kurulu-uyesi-t-yasin-ozturk-6/

"Bu tankı hafifletmemiz gerekiyor ve ağırlığın çok büyük bir bölümünü, tankın gövdesi, yani zırhı oluşturuyor. Prototipler, 70 ton civarında bir ağırlığa sahip. Tankın koruma seviyesinden feragat etmeden, ağırlığı 60 tonun altına çekebilmeyi hedefliyoruz. "

Translation:
We need to lighten this tank and most of the weight is composed of tanks body; its armor. Prototypes are around 70 tons. We are aiming to reduce the weight under 60 tons without comprimising tank's protection level.

I personally think that BMC do not have the capability of reducing the weight of this tank without comprimise. You just can not reduce the wight from armor THAT MUCH without having a really incredible R&D, long years, hell lot of money. If you do that without having decades of R&D and its know how you will need to build a new R&D branch with incredibly rare scientists who will succeed in a shorter time with great amount of money. (those researchs will need a ton of money if you are not a firm with high end R&D already like lockhead martin etc.) IF THEY CAN accomplish that; it will result with that tank's cost to fly dramaticly and it is certain for a delay probably at least 5-10 years.

BMC is not a firm that can find a way to reduce weight of a tank 10 tons FROM ARMOR without coprimise. So; that is a plain LIE! If Roketsan said that I would say that would be possible. (They have great scientists and a great cumulative know how) When BMC says that... C'mon. It is like me saying that I will build an elevator to space by only using wood.

BTW; for those guys who advocates words of BMC guy without even thinking and calling people names like "ooh tank expeeert" I can talk about this because I have background on materials and this is the expertise you need to comment on "weight reduction without comprimising material properties". "A tank expert" (which is undefined) is not the expert you are looking for. So; please consider this before calling me tank expert. (And now we are looking for possible conflicts by some people. I even miss hurshit)

Dude that was for them guys who were complaining about mass production delay shaping a disastrous picture or a corruption scandal about BMC when we dont even know the state of the project or what is holding it back and such

I actually hate this 10 ton reduction thing
Because:
1) why ??
2) why now ?
3) Roketsan is responsible for armor so what is their part ? Why is it BMC announcing this ?

Look no need to be offended but as I see it this is a national project of a country's sovereignty and defense
When the some people supposedly from this country do nothing but hate it or complain about it just to find another reason to hate the government it pisses me off
( especially when all the complaints are nothing but assumptions and opinions nothing as solid proof or facts )

No matter what is your feeling or is your political view or whether you hate or love the current leadership this is a project for turkey period supporting it should be the only option

Edit : Thanks for the info and the link
 
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Could this be an issue with acquiring the German engines? Or was that solved?
 
To see something shady is going on with BMC, you do not need to be an expert. All the things related to BMC is extremely unpleasant. First of all, let's look at its owner, Ethem Sancak. He was a member of the Maoist terrorist organization in the '70s. In the '90s, when the secularist had the power in Turkey, he was calling Aydın Dogan as his father.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/ahmet-hakan/ethem-sancaki-nerede-tanidim-40076590

When AKP took the government, he became Islamist and Erdogan literally gave him BMC because he is a cousin of the first lady, Emine Erdogan. He tells this, not me.

https://odatv.com/eski-sosyalist-ye...-sancaktan-itiraf-gibi-aciklama-17011908.html
Most of the people who criticize all this BMC thing are non-partisan people and they want best for their country.
No, sadly it's actually quite the opposite. The root cause for why BMC is criticized so much is because of politics. The rumors revolving Ethem Sancak is more about slander than anything else, and this has to do with the level (or lack thereof) of our politics. The target is not BMC nor Ethem Sancak, they don't care about any of them. The target in this case is slandering Erdogan, BMC and Sancak are just stepping stones to reach that goal. Eventually it is 'innocent until proven guilty', if there is foul play then there must be evidence. On top of that, if there was any corruption in these tenders, then that would mean that SSB is corrupt as well, but yet, SSB is actually an institution with a great track record. Not to mention that Otokar and FNSS would've complained if they suspected any foul play during tenders.
The writer Ahmet Hakan makes those claims about Ethem Sancak, but cites another writer Ertugrul Ozkok. I didn't come further than the first few paragraph's as I don't care for their opinions, nor do I care for Ethem Sancak's character. This is nothing but tabloid journalism designed to sway opinions and manage perceptions.

The strategy behind these types of articles is this:
Person A did something, Political party B is related to Person A in some shape or form, And therefore Political party B must be like that as well.
It's all about creating certain perceptions to manipulate it's readers and followers into thinking a certain way.
Those people that wrote/write those articles do not necessarily believe what they write, they only write what they themselves want you/us to believe. It is our own responsibility to fact check what we read and hear, otherwise we are doomed to be manipulated by those who seek to manipulate us.

What else they did in this case is, they describe a journey from A to F. What they then do is they fill in the blanks with whatever serves their own interests, so they say something like A Z E I N F instead of A B C D E F.
So in this case, Sancak used to be a Maoist and now he is a conservative, so they come up with the conclusion that the only reason he made such a change is for his own interests. Sounds plausible, but is it the truth? Or slander? Given the track record of media and what media is about, it's more than likely to be slander and not to mention irrelevant. What actually is relevant is BMC as a company and the steps it takes/policy and strategy it has adopted (which I wrote about in one the paragraphs below).

Media is nothing but a propaganda tool. Even of the most unbiased media outlets, only about 40 to 45% are actual fact based info. The rest is all misinformation. When it comes to biased media with clear agenda's, misinformation is way worse.

Case in point, analyse what is going on in Venezuela right now, see for yourself what the mainstream media like CNN, FOX etc. omit from their reports and even blatantly lie about what is going on there. And compare that to actual academic research done by the UN. Is the cause of hyperinflation really as CNN claims it to be or is it something else entirely? Does Maduro really refuse foreign aid?

These are just examples of how the media lies to us all. The whole ordeal about BMC, Sancak etc. is nothing different and it can all be traced back to politics and the mudslinging that comes with it.

Every one of us in this forum knew that he was going to get the tender. Isn't this corruption, how can you guys defend such kind of act and say 'let's wait, maybe something good will show up'? No, it won't. This is the mentality which creates the difference between developed and undeveloped countries. Please read 'Why Nations Fail' by Daron Acemoglu.

Now, they are trying to include BMC in nearly all defense projects. We all accept that the defense industry is one of the few sectors which really go well. We should raise our voice so they do not ruin this sector as well.
I didn't 'know', but I did speculate that they could win because of the business strategy BMC has adopted:
BMC has adopted an aggressive strategy of expanding and are taking many risks as a company. Expanding into various sectors and taking on many tenders, can pay out big, but is also highly risky. If it turns south, it could even bankrupt the company (risk istahi yuksek bir stratejisi var). Offering the lowest in tenders/best conditions, means you have to be more efficient than your competition. Otherwise, even though you do more business then your competitors, your returns/margins are lower. Which doesn't help BMC, unless they are willing to take the hit for other reasons like brand awareness, or gathering know-how for the company or some other reason. Because there is Qatari capital within the company, BMC might (not sure) not have trouble when it comes to capital and therefore could afford to adopt such an aggressive strategy, which would give them a competitive advantage over its rivals.

Do not try to silence them as you do at FETO and 'Peace process' cases. A lot of people tried to warn you about the real aims of FETO and PKK, but you did not listen to them because what Erdogan tell is more important for you guys than the reality.
You know the story about 'the boy that cried: wolf!'. AKP's political rivals at the time did warn them about FETO, but since those rivals always stood against them in every policy, it was not only easy, but even logical to dismiss those warnings. During the time of 'paralel yapi' and FETO conspiring against AKP, those very same parties that were warning against FETO, Ironically started embracing FETO's plot and started using FETO's arguments against AKP. Even MHP was in that camp during that time. 'Enemy of my enemy' approach was to hard to resist for those parties at the time. And no, I am not judging any of the parties for what they did. No political party is immune to mistakes, as long as they are able to admit having made mistakes and actively trying to fix those mistakes or at the very least avoiding those mistakes again.

I do not support any political party in Turkey right now so this topic is not a political issue for me. I just want my country to be successful and when I see something is going wrong, I want to share with others.
I respect and appreciate that, especially the part about you not supporting any political party. Partisanism is the biggest problem to be honest.

I believe most of the people who criticize BMC case in here feel the same with me.
I don't believe so, merely for the fact that it is always the same people writing and 'thanking' the posts criticizing BMC, are also the same people writing and 'thanking' the posts criticizing AKP and Erdogan in other threads. Which is fair enough, everyone has their own opinions. Just trying to note that there is a correlation there.

And please don't misconstrue what I said in this post. I am not trying to convince you into changing your mind about BMC/Sancak or anything else. I'm just merely stating my opinion which I wanted to share with you and anyone that wants to read it.
 
Dude that was for them guys who were complaining about mass production delay shaping a disastrous picture or a corruption scandal about BMC when we dont even know the state of the project or what is holding it back and such

I actually hate this 10 ton reduction thing
Because:
1) why ??
2) why now ?
3) Roketsan is responsible for armor so what is their part ? Why is it BMC announcing this ?

Look no need to be offended but as I see it this is a national project of a country's sovereignty and defense
When the some people supposedly from this country do nothing but hate it or complain about it just to find another reason to hate the government it pisses me off
( especially when all the complaints are nothing but assumptions and opinions nothing as solid proof or facts )

No matter what is your feeling or is your political view or whether you hate or love the current leadership this is a project for turkey period supporting it should be the only option

Edit : Thanks for the info and the link
First of all; I think there might be a misunderstanding because of me. I quoted your comment and then wrote the last paragraph. It was not intended for you; it was for some people at the prior pages. I should point this out or at least write it before quoting you.

I tried to write without involving with politics. I agree with you; if BMC is announcing this then it means they are going to redesign and/or downgrade it or most important they will create some new material technologies for armor. (I don't think those are possible and I think he just said those and it is a lie)

Thanks to political corruption many highly advanced and experienced engineers and scientists left defence industry and even the country. For example; they put some idiots who are not from the industry ind not even a scientist/engineer to TAI and they pushed people's buttons. Mobbing came to such a degree that people just left. I am talking about people who are unexperienced, does not have any expertise and just have connections. You know how they will feel around highly intelligent, overarchieving, highly successful people and you know how they are going to bully people by their authority. I personally know highly experienced people who left various companies. They earn more than 10 times then here and they are in another country. All of those people had the same opportunuties years ago but they did not leave. They leave now; why? Look at the defence industry well; if this does not change you will not see the same brilliant minds in 10-20 years and our defence industry will cease to exist. BMC is not a firm that I dislike; actually it is just a symbol of the destruction of our minds at the industry.
 
They will go for a slightly smaller turrent for ALTAY!?? This redesign issue is a known fact for quite a while right ? T1- T2-T3 (unmaned turret).
 
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Hmm what about perhaps the installation of an automatic loader?one of the reason of installing an autoloader is to save weight
Like in the Russian t_72/80/90 or Leclerc and K2?
Especially the last 2
 
İt's impossible to use 105 mm either 120mm solid ammo from T72-64 basket type autoloader. Because Russians use two part separated ammo. Shell + warhead.
 
I know about the Russian system of autoloader
I was referring to use an autoloader in order to save in crew member and weight. My fault I should have been more specific
İt's impossible to use 105 mm either 120mm solid ammo from T72-64 basket type autoloader. Because Russians use two part separated ammo. Shell + warhead.
 
I know about the Russian system of autoloader
I was referring to use an autoloader in order to save in crew member and weight. My fault I should have been more specific
You don't have any fault bro. We are just speaking. Reducing tank crew wouldn't be attractive to Turkish Army. We are planning to produce maximum 500 tanks so additional 500 personal wouldn't cause any trouble however in every tank one more worker could be better When it comes to fix or replace some heavyweight details.
 
Main reduction of weight will probably come from the rim and tracks.

We use standart steel rims and steel tracks with rubber shoes. Part of the weigth reduction can be gained from there.
 

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