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Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

Even Ghana, Morocco, China, Burkina Faso, Oman are more honest.. Big SHAME
Never been this much corruption in Turkey.
"halal corruption"

2011 54 Turkey 49 9 45 52

2008 58 Turkey 4.6 7 4.1 - 5.1

2000 50 Turkey 3.8 8 0.8 2.1 - 4.5

1995 Turkey 4.10 4 1.33

we are back at 1995 from the score points.. :D
 
The moment i see your rhetoric, i got your mentality thanks to the cumulativeness in the books of the human history and my short experience; That is why i reject to ''inform first, debate later'' kinda stance, and still do; Otherwise, My time and effort would end just like the @ANMDT did with you.(Either shift the topic or if confronted/cornered more, then just shut yourself with a key word ''speculation'' in the end)
This basically sums it up. So far you haven't added anything of value between our exchanges, other than trying to take the discussion some place else, and ironically accuse me of shifting the topic.

I wrote two paragraphs about your thought process, and was hoping that you would actually write a solid argument as to why I am was wrong here (and to be honest, I really was hoping that I would be wrong here as well). But you haven't even responded to that. You haven't responded substantively to any of my arguments and the points I was trying to make. And I think that is because you assumed I was like you, but from the opposite side of the spectrum, or that I was a BMC fan or something. But I have made it clear that from the start that I am not here to defend BMC, but was trying to shed light on the perception involving BMC and the reason behind this perception. In other words, I was trying to highlight the root cause. But you failed to, or refused to see that.

And no, I didn't shut myself with the word "speculation", my stance from the very start was to show that it was all speculation, slander and FUD. And even wrote down the root cause behind it. But you are either unable to see it, or are refusing to see it (maybe you haven't even read it, I don't know). But I think this is due to you seeing me as a rival, because I am challenging your perception of reality/biases and refuse to believe what I wrote. You don't believe what I wrote, that is fair enough and it's entirely your choice. I mean, why should you trust me, I am just a random guy on the internet. But at least read what's written down and try to understand what I am trying to say before jumping to conclusions and writing incoherent responses.

The same BMC still needs multi national-cooperation, privitization, financial bonuses, fixed tenders, delays, workers, engineers etc. *(and also the words of the owner) only for a single product to produce does obviously miss the good old days, but raises credible doubts about the reason(s) behind this for the sake of the country and nation that is literally in a war right now.
Needing multi-national cooperation, financial bonuses, worker, engineers, and stuff like that, everyone company needs that. That is how business is done. That is what healthy business is.

Fixed tenders, yeah, that is slander (not even speculation). If it isn't, then you are more than welcome to prove it. Otherwise, 'innocent until proven guilty'. I have written about this in my previous posts by the way, and dived deeper into the topic, it's obvious that it isn't able to convince you (that is fair enough btw, you believe what you want). But you at least should know my stance on it, so what is the point of bringing it back up again? Then you shouldn't be surprised if you get the same responses out of me.


Apparently, you do not have those credible doubts, therefore ask you why, but you keep answering by emotion not intelligence just raises the doubts more in this chit chat; and of course dents your credibility as well.
How do you know that I don't have credible doubts? That is quite an assumption. And how do you know I haven't done my due diligence before forming my opinion? I have actually went quite into detail as to why I believe what I believe, and refuse to be manipulated by smear campaigns. Only if I have credible information about something, will I actually believe it. Otherwise I will always give people the benefit of the doubt.

If someone were to come to me and say that something bad about you, you think I am going to take it at face value? I am not just going to believe them just because I might or might not like you. Sure, it might raise some doubts, but I will also doubt the person that said those negative things about you as well. Maybe that guy isn't to be trusted. Like I said, due diligence, otherwise I will be at the whims of manipulators.

Let's check it out again...

Will the BMC bring any permanent value for the sake of the country and nation in the long term after the money earned in the Altay tank deal?
Why? I was pretty clear and explicit the last time.


Ps: * Ethem Sancak: "Aslen Arabım. Ben Türk olmaktan mutluluk duymam, üzülürüm."
Good for him. And by saying this, you are exactly doing the very thing I am trying to warn about, it's ironic to say the least. Trying to character assassinate him has nothing much to do about BMC and it's operations and the effectivity of the company. The fact that BMC has provided Turkey with it's products, our army with Kirpi's, and the fact that Sancak bought BMC that was actually bankrupt, says more about his character than some quote does.

And have you also fact checked on whether the quote is even true? And if so, when did he say it? And if yes, does he still feel the same way about it, or does he have a different opinion now? And even if he did say it, and still feels the same way about it, does it really matter? And if so, why does it matter? Don't allow yourself be manipulated by stuff like that.

If you are ever on facebook or twitter etc. you see quotes like this all the time from various people and leaders (Erdogan, Kilicdaroglu, Bahceli, etc). And most of the time it's fake, or ripped out of context. But people blindly believe it anyway. Same goes for pictures, without even knowing the actual story behind the pic, manipulators write whatever story they wish to trick and fool people into believing them.

And then you are going to wonder why Turkey has such a high corruption perception index. It's because our perception is being targeted because of political rivalism.
 
This basically sums it up. So far you haven't added anything of value between our exchanges, other than trying to take the discussion some place else, and ironically accuse me of shifting the topic.

I wrote two paragraphs about your thought process, and was hoping that you would actually write a solid argument as to why I am was wrong here (and to be honest, I really was hoping that I would be wrong here as well). But you haven't even responded to that. You haven't responded substantively to any of my arguments and the points I was trying to make. And I think that is because you assumed I was like you, but from the opposite side of the spectrum, or that I was a BMC fan or something. But I have made it clear that from the start that I am not here to defend BMC, but was trying to shed light on the perception involving BMC and the reason behind this perception. In other words, I was trying to highlight the root cause. But you failed to, or refused to see that.

And no, I didn't shut myself with the word "speculation", my stance from the very start was to show that it was all speculation, slander and FUD. And even wrote down the root cause behind it. But you are either unable to see it, or are refusing to see it (maybe you haven't even read it, I don't know). But I think this is due to you seeing me as a rival, because I am challenging your perception of reality/biases and refuse to believe what I wrote. You don't believe what I wrote, that is fair enough and it's entirely your choice. I mean, why should you trust me, I am just a random guy on the internet. But at least read what's written down and try to understand what I am trying to say before jumping to conclusions and writing incoherent responses.


Needing multi-national cooperation, financial bonuses, worker, engineers, and stuff like that, everyone company needs that. That is how business is done. That is what healthy business is.

Fixed tenders, yeah, that is slander (not even speculation). If it isn't, then you are more than welcome to prove it. Otherwise, 'innocent until proven guilty'. I have written about this in my previous posts by the way, and dived deeper into the topic, it's obvious that it isn't able to convince you (that is fair enough btw, you believe what you want). But you at least should know my stance on it, so what is the point of bringing it back up again? Then you shouldn't be surprised if you get the same responses out of me.



How do you know that I don't have credible doubts? That is quite an assumption. And how do you know I haven't done my due diligence before forming my opinion? I have actually went quite into detail as to why I believe what I believe, and refuse to be manipulated by smear campaigns. Only if I have credible information about something, will I actually believe it. Otherwise I will always give people the benefit of the doubt.

If someone were to come to me and say that something bad about you, you think I am going to take it at face value? I am not just going to believe them just because I might or might not like you. Sure, it might raise some doubts, but I will also doubt the person that said those negative things about you as well. Maybe that guy isn't to be trusted. Like I said, due diligence, otherwise I will be at the whims of manipulators.


Why? I was pretty clear and explicit the last time.



Good for him. And by saying this, you are exactly doing the very thing I am trying to warn about, it's ironic to say the least. Trying to character assassinate him has nothing much to do about BMC and it's operations and the effectivity of the company. The fact that BMC has provided Turkey with it's products, our army with Kirpi's, and the fact that Sancak bought BMC that was actually bankrupt, says more about his character than some quote does.

And have you also fact checked on whether the quote is even true? And if so, when did he say it? And if yes, does he still feel the same way about it, or does he have a different opinion now? And even if he did say it, and still feels the same way about it, does it really matter? And if so, why does it matter? Don't allow yourself be manipulated by stuff like that.

If you are ever on facebook or twitter etc. you see quotes like this all the time from various people and leaders (Erdogan, Kilicdaroglu, Bahceli, etc). And most of the time it's fake, or ripped out of context. But people blindly believe it anyway. Same goes for pictures, without even knowing the actual story behind the pic, manipulators write whatever story they wish to trick and fool people into believing them.

And then you are going to wonder why Turkey has such a high corruption perception index. It's because our perception is being targeted because of political rivalism.

Correct me if I am wrong. BMC gone bankrupt because of less assignments, especially from state. After this, the government sell the insolvency company to a very cheap price to Ethem Sancak. A close friend of Erdogan. Now, BMC is owned by a friend of Erdogan, the company get one billion assignments after another (MRAPS, TANKS, ENGINES,... ). Right?

It’s the same with Bayraktar company. It’s not an 100% evidence of nepotism, but it smells and look like one. To be honest, you must be very stupid, what you are not, to believe it has nothing to do with nepotism.

Even Ghana, Morocco, China, Burkina Faso, Oman are more honest.. Big SHAME
Never been this much corruption in Turkey.
"halal corruption"

Corruption is part of Turkish society. It will hurt you much more , as it do in present.
 
Correct me if I am wrong. BMC gone bankrupt because of less assignments, especially from state. After this, the government sell the insolvency company to a very cheap price to Ethem Sancak. A close friend of Erdogan. Now, BMC is owned by a friend of Erdogan, the company get one billion assignments after another (MRAPS, TANKS, ENGINES,... ). Right?
BMC had enough assignments with Kirpi's at the time as well. It's parent company had problems and it dragged BMC down with it. BMC was sold at a very cheap price? Says who? There was a tender in the selling of BMC and was open to other investors as well. Sancak was the one that had the best offer and it went to him.

BMC has adopted a different strategy since and is trying to expand into different fields. They even want to manufacture trains. In order to achieve this and the government contracts, BMC must take on considerable amount of risk and investment in these fields. Securing government contracts does mitigate some of the risk, but not a sure shot, like what happened with Tumosan's contract for the engine. So no, BMC doesn't get anything for free and they have to work hard in order to be successful.

It’s the same with Bayraktar company. It’s not an 100% evidence of nepotism, but it smells and look like one. To be honest, you must be very stupid, what you are not, to believe it has nothing to do with nepotism.
Baykar is the company, Bayraktar is the UAV. But do you even know the history of Baykar? How they started out? What their goals were back in 2005/6? Baykar was already a successful company when Selcuk Bayraktar married the daughter of Erdogan. Not only that, Baykar doesn't have any equal when it comes to their products. So who else is going to get these government contracts?

You are going to say TAI now right? No, because ANKA is a UAV in a different class. Vestel could've been, but Vestel's Karayel first flight and development was lagging behind Baykar's Bayraktar. Baykar was in the UAV business way before Vestel was. So Baykar's UAV's didn't really have competition. So it's going to be obvious that the contract will go to Baykar. This isn't the first time with had this discussion either, I feel like I'm having a deja-vu here.

Corruption is part of Turkish society. It will hurt you much more , as it do in present.
You do realize it's a perception index right? In other words, it isn't measuring corruption itself, but the perception of it. And perceptions can be changed with ad and smear campaigns. For instance, the Russia probe during the US elections. What do you think that was about? And why was there so much pressure on Facebook afterwards? Smear campaigns can be molded into whatever political objectives one pursues.

And this is a thread about Altay tank, why did you even post the CPI index here?
 
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Correct me if I am wrong. BMC gone bankrupt because of less assignments, especially from state. After this, the government sell the insolvency company to a very cheap price to Ethem Sancak. A close friend of Erdogan. Now, BMC is owned by a friend of Erdogan, the company get one billion assignments after another (MRAPS, TANKS, ENGINES,... ). Right?

It’s the same with Bayraktar company. It’s not an 100% evidence of nepotism, but it smells and look like one. To be honest, you must be very stupid, what you are not, to believe it has nothing to do with nepotism.



Corruption is part of Turkish society. It will hurt you much more , as it do in present.
Bayraktar signed serial production contract for Akinci İHA with the government (from a reliable source, i need to check if it is true), without showing one single flying proof of concept prototype. (In Baykar's technical manager's terms) Those "unwieldy""clumsy" big defence companies have to prove the development by tests as explained by the contract, in order to keep the money flow.

I have seen BMC production facilities and some other big automative factories too; BMC was the most primitive one unfortunately. I dont think they can handle required organizational transformation and personnel qualification to be able to produce battle tanks in high engineering standards. Technological readiness is one of those key components in order to win a tender; it is not simple as whoever suggest the minimum rates is fit to produce. Clearly, they didnt consider technological readiness as an important factor while giving the responsibility to BMC. That is why Turkey would not be able to make this national tank dream a reality, due to favoritism; at best 10 years with this progress rate of BMC.
 
These political trolls and TR and AKP haters will die out of frustration when BMC presents the tank at publiced time! This hate and spam is so annoying, why don't you stop trolling and focus on technical info about fhe tank, engine etc
 
True, the trolling and insults are annoying, but I find it interesting that there are someone who claim they've seen production facilities of some of the companies.

I have an understanding of not revealing who they are, but it would have been very nice to be presented som comparisons that we could see. I mean aren't the title "professional" given by the admins and not something you can post your way to ?

What's important here is the Altay, unfortunately the politicians have their own agenda as always. It's not unheard of for politicians or even employers to show favoritism towards people/companies that does as instructed.
 
True, the trolling and insults are annoying, but I find it interesting that there are someone who claim they've seen production facilities of some of the companies.

I have an understanding of not revealing who they are, but it would have been very nice to be presented som comparisons that we could see. I mean aren't the title "professional" given by the admins and not something you can post your way to ?

What's important here is the Altay, unfortunately the politicians have their own agenda as always. It's not unheard of for politicians or even employers to show favoritism towards people/companies that does as instructed.

I just want the Tank to be honest because Turkey just cant constantly modernise the ones they have new machines are needed.

Hope one day we see the Altay tank. We need some Turkish blitzkrieg on the ypg/pkk and Isis scumbags.
 
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I just want the Tank to be honest because Turkey just cant constantly modernise the ones they have new machines are needed.

Hope one day we see the Altay tank. We need some Turkish blitkrieg on the ypg/pkk and Isis scumbags.
If you ask me I would let down Altay T1 and fasten the development of T2 and T3 versions. Until then I would upgrade the Leopard 2A4 to at least A6 standard and upgrade more of the M60A3 to TM standard of course both with integrated Pulat/Akkor APS.

The T1 configuration of Altay is going to be produced in 40 units and I don't think that it would do a major difference. I would concentrate over fastening the development of the more modern variants and improving the industrial base which I would like to be ready for faster deliveries of T2 configuration.

Thanks to the unfortunate developments of the project Altay T1 start to be out of schedule and when comes out I fear that it won't be the super duper modern beast as we see it today but the next regular tank out there. I would not lose any time with that configuration as our possible upgrade of Leopard2A4's would give us very close performance to Altay T1.

I want Altay when produced to be really something different and not the regular tank which is here 2020. The T2 configuration would suit the needs of TSK perfectly and put the difference between our current tank fleet and its potential. Until then there are 353 potential Altay T1 in the face of Leopard2A4 per specification which carry enough life to keep the front. I would wait for the production of T2 rather of T1 that is not something revolutionary while looking at our existing fleet's modernized potential. Yes it would not carry the long waited "national and domestic" title that all Turkey is waiting to see on a tank but will improve the capabilities of TSK much faster and open a way for fastening of the development for the more modern versions of Altay which will bring really something new.
 
Ok does anyone know Russia's Armata tanks ??

Russia a country that is most experienced when it comes to land vehicles and Tanks yet it is still pushing back the Armata production

From 2014 now deliveries to be completed in 2024

So give Turkey which is still new at tanks a damn break

Besides maybe they are on hold till a domestic engine is developed who knows ??

Yes it is taking time but that does not mean the whole project is broken or corrupt or stupid it's just consuming time like normal defense projects would normally do sheez
 
If the tank was still in development I would agree, better to have a good and finished product. But the development of the tank is done and its awaiting production for now 2 years?
 
The workers who made Fırtına and Poyraz in Sakarya factory that is being sold to BMC say "if given chance, we can make Altay too", dont sell the factory.
Dv5lD5XWkAAj8yY
 
i guess that is why they are being sold. btw didn't know that in the first place.
 

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