What's new

Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

I know about the construction being halted, Ismail Demir interview came after this and touched upon the issue. And unless he or some other official says it's confirmed to be cancelled, we can only assume it's only been halted/paused for the time being.

Claiming that BMC is winning these tenders by being corrupt is pure speculation. To be honest, there is no one that knows if there is corruption involved, so any claims to corruption would simply be slander at this point and not to mention attacking the credibility and dignity of the people at SSB and everyone else involved in the tender processes. But that is the whole point behind it anyway. The one's claiming this, aren't doing so because they themselves believe it. They are doing it so others will believe it. And think about it, if there was actual corruption involved, then Otokar and FNSS would've complained and taken it to court for the cancelation of the tender (ihale'ye fesat karistirmak, vesayre). Would've also been the case for any of the other tenders as well.


What do you mean? Having an aggressive strategy isn't good or bad, it just depends on the company profile, how they would position themselves and what they wish to achieve in the near future. So basically what I said was that BMC has adopted a strategy of aggressive growth relative to the competition.

Aggressive strategy can work in the defence industry as well. Think about it, if you look at Turkish defence industry, I would say the Turkish state also adopted an aggressive strategy. It started off with small projects, produce under license, and step by step they have/are started with Original Equipment Manufacturing (OEM). Currently they are at 65% local production but wish to take in to 80%+ with all strategic equipment being locally developed, or at the very least have the know how to develop it if the need would arise.

If you look at industry frontrunner Aselsan, compare it with 5, 10 or 15+ years ago it has multiplied it's own size. And TAI also has a fairly aggressive strategy, it wants to grow it's turnover from 2 billion to 10 billion $ in 5 or 10 years (can't remember the exact years). All this is a reflection of the aggressive expansion strategy of the Turkish defence industry as a whole. Because TAI and Aselsan can't reach these growth target if the domestic TR industry doesn't supplement it.

Our industry had a 2 billion $ export target in 2018, which it has reached according to Ismail Demir. They are targeting 25 billion $ by 2023, which Ismail Demir himself admits is very ambitious. So I would say the Turkish defence industry itself has an aggressive strategy and so far it has worked out.


No offence, but just because you don't trust them doesn't mean they aren't trustworthy. The only reason for this mistrust is because of politics. I went more in depth on this topic in post #4219, in which I talked about "FUD".


You don't have high hopes for BMC and think they will fail, from what I understand from your post.
I'm not going to defend them, because I don't know. Personally I think they can handle it, judging off of how they are handling the engine projects, Kirpi's, etc. But ultimately I don't know and only time will tell, I do wish they will accomplish their tasks though.

And if they do end up failing, then you can say: "I told you so".
Let me correct it then :
I dont have any hopes on BMC that they will complete the project with the current resources, and budget. They will be granted by anything for sake of completing the project, meanwhile their profit will be assured by government. They will be granted by any rights, any oppurtinity, if needed even staff from other factories will be delivered to theirs, they will indeed will complete and should complete.
But the point is, everyone is aware of the situation with BMC so you may stop mumbling about how you have hopes on. Anyone with a little bit of technical background knowledge, and rational thinking , would easily conclude that BMC isnt the company that deserves it.

I repeat again, we are not manufacturing toys but tanks, you may not simply trust a start up like greedy company for this critical project just because they look promising.
For God's sake they dont have factory, they dont have engineers, they dont have employers, technicians ( well trained and suitable for Altay) but you do still believe they deserve this project because of their aggressive strategy and their soo perfect management team? This is BS but nothing, you can not point a single example in the entire history of world where a company won a tender without even a factory or staff.

Afterall, the company is half foreign invested, and collaborated with German companies, everyone knows how Germans and Qataris may treat us upon some crisis.

A company which has proper resources may follow an aggressive strategy to grow up, if BMC had all human resources, they might design their own tank ( like otokar did) and sell it to foreign countries, or like Adik did, they could promote their products. You may not simply follow an aggessive strategy on a Tank which is critical to be in service in 5 years, this requires a solid base to grow on not an aggressive strategy. Agressive refers to a case,where you are capable of handling something properly and then stepping forward to gron on That, yet BMC has nothing regared to a Tank and we need it urgently.
Rights of all Martys will be asked upon you, and people thinking like you , the martys who have gone because Altays havent delivered on time but fought in M60s

We have been talking about all the corruption while completely ignoring this factor, everyone acts as if BMC will have success on their ambitions which still remains to be seen.
What we have seen so far doesnt look good at all tbh.
And they will keep ignoring it, thanks to their ignorance. Public doesnt have any opinion about BMC,they simply can relate that the company might be adequate but people in here aware of the situation, which is worse, they are blindly saying that BMC is doing right and its the best choice.
And i worry this corrupt will be spreading all over, i am really concerned that more factories and shipyards could be sold to private or even foreigners.
Seems like genclige hitabe has legit lines referring to this situation. I never expected it would come true this way.
 
You lot putting far too much emphasis on tank construction. If BMC can put together Kirpi, they can sure as hell put together a Tank. There is no speciality in assembly parts into a hull. And there are plenty of examples in the world of companies with no experience no expertise in Tank construction assembling tanks. And we need not look any further then our next door neighbour, Greece - Elvo.
ΕΛΒΟ.jpg


Now, are you trying to say BMC is a worse off company than Elvo ?
 
You lot putting far too much emphasis on tank construction. If BMC can put together Kirpi, they can sure as hell put together a Tank. There is no speciality in assembly parts into a hull. And there are plenty of examples in the world of companies with no experience no expertise in Tank construction assembling tanks. And we need not look any further then our next door neighbour, Greece - Elvo.
View attachment 529180

Now, are you trying to say BMC is a worse off company than Elvo ?

Finally someone with some sense.

The sad thing is, the anti-Erdo people scream about non-issues so much and so often that when something that could be real corruption happens (possibly this factory privatisation is one such example), it has no credibility because it's drowned out by their constant screetching.
 
Finally someone with some sense.

The sad thing is, the anti-Erdo people scream about non-issues so much and so often that when something that could be real corruption happens (possibly this factory privatisation is one such example), it has no credibility because it's drowned out by their constant screetching.
Lol even this is oppositions fault. :lol:

Corruption gets accepted because the opposition screeches about everything, nice logic going around here. :tup:
 
You lot putting far too much emphasis on tank construction. If BMC can put together Kirpi, they can sure as hell put together a Tank. There is no speciality in assembly parts into a hull. And there are plenty of examples in the world of companies with no experience no expertise in Tank construction assembling tanks. And we need not look any further then our next door neighbour, Greece - Elvo.
View attachment 529180

Now, are you trying to say BMC is a worse off company than Elvo ?
You have made the point already,
If BMC is good enough to assemble the tank ,then they should do so in their own facilities without any further assistance. If Tank Palet is enough qualified to assemble a tank (So do they) , then we are questioning here the purpose of BMC as a company in this process .
Such a dilemma,but truth is spoken,mate. It may not be worse than Elvo, but they are not good enough to assemble Altay and they have requested further assitance from state to privatize Tank Palet. This makes everything clear in my opinion.

You lot putting far too much emphasis on tank construction. If BMC can put together Kirpi, they can sure as hell put together a Tank. There is no speciality in assembly parts into a hull. And there are plenty of examples in the world of companies with no experience no expertise in Tank construction assembling tanks. And we need not look any further then our next door neighbour, Greece - Elvo.
View attachment 529180

Now, are you trying to say BMC is a worse off company than Elvo ?
I actually couldnt figure out if you were ironically mocking BMC ? :)
 
What i dont understand is they gave BMC the tender and said they will build a new factory, now BMC cancelled it and will get a public factory for very cheap.

So in Short, BMC neither had:
-the know how on building Tanks
-the factory
-the engine
-nor do we know whether they were the cheapest,
or any other advantage over other contenders for that matter.
The only thing BMC had was a islamist CEO thats friends with Erdogan, now dont come up with ''you are thinking biased because you hate Erdogan''.

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck then its a duck simple as that.
And the best is not only that it wont get questioned but your fanatic supporters will find any excuse if you dare to say anything, being a politician in Turkey must be a dream job tbh.

I dont really care about the political opinions of random people - but keep in mind, that without erdogan vision of an independent turkey you wouldnt have shit in regard of any industrial/military advantage - under the control of our prowestern/europe obeying leaders - self claiming kemalists - we weren't able to build our own 9mm bullets - but still you guys complaining on a high level - wishing yourself in a country like the USA without any roots or identity...
all ya'll do is complaining about islam - as if other praised western countries dont rely on their christian identity - but still you feel a need for all that - celebrating christmas as if they would only think about doing the same in regard of bayram etc. - as if there wasnt any corruption or nepotism before - it was much worse than that - I am old enough to remember those days - are you?
stop hating irrationally -
there are a lot of problems and also drawbacks and points of criticism - I agree -
but stop comparing your leaders of the past to the great father of the nation - thinking that an attack on puppets is an attack on him.. all they did in the past was paralyzing the nation to the delight of our WWI enemies ...
let that sink - brother!
I am happy that the nation got modernized and stronger - relying on our own identity, on a great history!
Stop focusing on your bogeyman - take a look at the greater picture gardas...

You have made the point already,
If BMC is good enough to assemble the tank ,then they should do so in their own facilities without any further assistance. If Tank Palet is enough qualified to assemble a tank (So do they) , then we are questioning here the purpose of BMC as a company in this process .

Why ya'll look like you want to see BMC lose, even if that would be a bitter setback for the turkish nation, just cause you hating on AKP/Erdogan/Islam from all your heart? Wtf is this irrational disgusting anatolian mentality?
 
Can we pls ask the moderator to stop with this annoying political smearing and provocations and concentrate at news and info about tank itself?!
 
Why ya'll look like you want to see BMC lose, even if that would be a bitter setback for the turkish nation, just cause you hating on AKP/Erdogan/Islam from all your heart? Wtf is this irrational disgusting anatolian mentality?

Erdogan Derangement Syndrome. It's the result of Western regime-change propaganda. They're so brainwashed they would burn the country to the ground as long as Erdogan burned with it.
 
I dont really care about the political opinions of random people - but keep in mind, that without erdogan vision of an independent turkey you wouldnt have shit in regard of any industrial/military advantage - under the control of our prowestern/europe obeying leaders - self claiming kemalists - we weren't able to build our own 9mm bullets - but still you guys complaining on a high level - wishing yourself in a country like the USA without any roots or identity...
all ya'll do is complaining about islam - as if other praised western countries dont rely on their christian identity - but still you feel a need for all that - celebrating christmas as if they would only think about doing the same in regard of bayram etc. - as if there wasnt any corruption or nepotism before - it was much worse than that - I am old enough to remember those days - are you?
stop hating irrationally -
there are a lot of problems and also drawbacks and points of criticism - I agree -
but stop comparing your leaders of the past to the great father of the nation - thinking that an attack on puppets is an attack on him.. all they did in the past was paralyzing the nation to the delight of our WWI enemies ...
let that sink - brother!
I am happy that the nation got modernized and stronger - relying on our own identity, on a great history!
Stop focusing on your bogeyman - take a look at the greater picture gardas...

We actually did have a defense industry (we were producing planes) until the 1950s when Adnan Menderes came to power. Menderes was an Islamist who closed our plane factories and made our country fully reliant on the west. He is possibly the most detrimental leader in modern Turkish history.

Menderes was hung in 1960 but the damage he caused set us back for a long time. After his death we started producing G3s and other small arms under license. As the conflict in Cyprus loomed, the Americans refused to sell us amphibious assault boats. This forced us to start producing our own equipment again. Companies such as Aselsan, Havelsan and Aspilsan were established in the 1970s. In 1985 we set up SSM in order to coordinate and drive forward our defense industry. It must be noted that a number of our major defense projects have been in the pipeline ever since the 80s/90s.

After putting so much emphasis on the defense industry in the 90s, it's only natural that our companies are flourishing now. All that hard work has paid off. True Kemalists made the Turkish defense industry what it is today, Erdogan is just in it for the ride.

all ya'll do is complaining about islam -

We're complaining about Islam because Arabs and Arab lovers are trying to wipe out Turkish identity by promoting Wahhabism. If these scums get what they want they will turn Turkey into Afghanistan.

as if other praised western countries dont rely on their christian identity - but still you feel a need for all that - celebrating christmas as if they would only think about doing the same in regard of bayram etc.

If you're a true Turk then you should neither celebrate Christmas or Eid. Let the Arabs and Westerners celebrate their fabricated and nonsensical holidays. Instead, All Turks should celebrate Nardugan, Koçagan, Sayagan and Paktagan. Of course, it is entirely up to you, however it is the best way to make sure our culture survives and our countries don't devolve into shitholes due to radical Islamism.


BTW: Back to the topic. BMC is the least capable of the 3 companies. I've explained this thoroughly before but some of you are too brainwashed to understand. I, just like everyone else on this thread want production to start ASAP. However the fact that BMC was chosen has slowed this project down by at least an extra year. It is clear that this was politically motivated and it is a classic case of corruption. Some of you need to get this through your thick heads.
 
Last edited:
Erdogan Derangement Syndrome. It's the result of Western regime-change propaganda. They're so brainwashed they would burn the country to the ground as long as Erdogan burned with it.
That's what I'm thinking since I follow this board .. almost in every post you read irrational shit about the Gouvernement/Erdogan/AKP/Islam etc... they seem to be obsessed with all that - They should stop watching too much online TV like Fox News or other european turkophobic Channels...

We're complaining about Islam because Arabs and Arab lovers are trying to wipe out Turkish identity by promoting Wahhabism. If these scums get what they want they will turn Turkey into Afghanistan.

Ohhh lord? Do you believe your own words? Wahabism? Turkey? You mixed up too many things you dont have enough knowledge about - Turkey didnt and wont live any kind of wahabism - their leading Medheb is the most moderate one - the Hanafi one.. Even if I'm not very religious - and that shouldnt be a subject, cause its private - I know that and you should learn the differences.
The History you are talking about is also a big lack of knowledge since I am a part of a family made of Albays and Pashas of the TSK - on god - no bullshit...

The only thing the leaders back then did, was buying from the West, obeying the West - Leading the whole nation to a point, forgetting their roots - trying to be the West and ya'll are children of these people... Yes, plans for all that were made, but non of your praised leaders had the guts to follow and implement all that under any kind of circumstances! And thats the big difference! While the leaders back then changed their positions like russian roulette - no Gouvernement longer in power than (perceived) 1 yr... debating about how they can do shit whereas the people were starving...

You want Turkism? But ignore 1000 yrs of ottoman (islamic) glory?
You really think that they will implement the shariah again? Are you scared of it? Than stop watching turkophobic TV and do some research on this term (turkophobia)...
Like I said - there are also a lot of negatives - I agree - like letting Syrian People flooding the East like Ozal did back then, enriching the nation with the PKK... But empower religious people to live freely isnt any failure and non of your praised western countries would prohibit christian people to work for institutions under puplic law like our "loved leaders of the past" did... Except menderez - he tried to empower turkey again after (my opinion) our father got assassinated - and got shut down too - look at the eco. growth in his term and compare it..

You have to look at the greater picture...
If turkey is able to establish his own puppet in nothern syria - oil - a great future will waiting for us..
Dont forget - they couldnt colonialize turkey - and they will never be able to do so...

Yes I am an Azeri Turk - I love my motherland and my roots.. but to hate on a nation and any advantage, just cause you hate on erdogan, the AKP or are scared of the islam is wrong!

I dont want to start any kind of dispute - but its enough already to read about these subjects even if we share infos about e.g. water filtration in sudan ... lol
Lets hope and pray for a new, even greater nation - that turkey will rise again - nothing more is importan - even if the initiator is erdogan or an AKP member... I couldnt care less for the nations sake!
 
Last edited:
That's what I'm thinking since I follow this board .. almost in every post you read irrational shit about the Gouvernement/Erdogan/AKP/Islam etc... they seem to be obsessed with all that - They should stop watching too much online TV like Fox News or other european turkophobic Channels...



Ohhh lord? Do you believe your own words? Wahabism? Turkey? You mixed up too many things you dont have enough knowledge about - Turkey didnt and wont live any kind of wahabism - their leading Medheb is the most moderate one - the Hanafi one.. Even if I'm not very religious - and that shouldnt be a subject, cause its private - I know that and you should learn the differences.
The History you are talking about is also a big lack of knowledge since I am a part of a family made of Albays and Pashas of the TSK - on god - no bullshit...

The only thing the leaders back then did, was buying from the West, obeying the West - Leading the whole nation to a point, forgetting their roots - trying to be the West and ya'll are children of these people... Yes, plans for all that were made, but no of your praised leaders had the guts to follow and implement all that under any kind of circumstances! And thats the big difference! While the leaders back then changed their positions like russian roulette - no Gouvernement longer in power than perceived 1 yrs... debating about how they can do shit whereas the people were starving...

You want Turkism? But ignore 1000 yrs of ottoman (islamic) glory?
You really think that they will implement the shariah again? Are you scared of it? Than stop watching turkophobic TV and do some research on this term (turkophobia)...
Like I said - there are also a lot of negatives - I agree - like letting Syrian People flooding the East like Ozal did back then, enriching the nation with the PKK... But empower religious people to live freely isnt any failure and non of your praised western countries would prohibit christian people to work for institutions under puplic law like our "loved leaders of the past" did... Except menderez - he tried to empower turkey again after (my opinion) our father got assassinated - and got shut down too - look at the eco. growth in his term and compare it..

You have to look at the greater picture...
If turkey is able to establish his own puppet in nothern syria - oil - a great future will waiting for us..
Dont forget - they couldnt colonialize turkey - and they will never be able to do so...

Yes I am an Azeri Turk - I love my motherland and my roots.. but to hate on a nation and any advantage, just cause you hate or are scared of the islam is wrong!

I dont want to start any kind of dispute - but its enough already to read about these subjects even if we share infos about e.g. water filtration in sudan ... lol

Look gardas, I know you mean well but you still have a lot to learn.

Anyway I'm off to sleep.
 
stop hating irrationally -
Said the one who posted a wall of rant which icludes judgements of a stranger he never met, you dont know me so stop assuming things about me that only fit in your narrow world view.

I see i touched a nerve here but i dont care i will call it as it is, your just another apologist whitewashing corruption with simple thinking like ''but others did less'', so fucking what? Is Turkey damned to be ruled by corrupt politicians because the previous ones werent better?

Can we pls ask the moderator to stop with this annoying political smearing and provocations and concentrate at news and info about tank itself?!
Defence industry and politics go hand in hand and the points raised here have substance, it is about the future of turkish defence industry, i cant possibly think of a more important topic to talk about in a defense forum, so sry if it dusturbs you when these things get mentioned.
 
Finally someone with some sense.

The sad thing is, the anti-Erdo people scream about non-issues so much and so often that when something that could be real corruption happens (possibly this factory privatisation is one such example), it has no credibility because it's drowned out by their constant screetching.

Otokar wouldn't of been able to develop a Tank worthy of TSK praise without government paying $500mil to S. Korea Hyundai Rotem for assistance.
 
I dont really care about the political opinions of random people - but keep in mind, that without erdogan vision of an independent turkey you wouldnt have shit in regard of any industrial/military advantage - under the control of our prowestern/europe obeying leaders - self claiming kemalists - we weren't able to build our own 9mm bullets - but still you guys complaining on a high level - wishing yourself in a country like the USA without any roots or identity...
all ya'll do is complaining about islam - as if other praised western countries dont rely on their christian identity - but still you feel a need for all that - celebrating christmas as if they would only think about doing the same in regard of bayram etc. - as if there wasnt any corruption or nepotism before - it was much worse than that - I am old enough to remember those days - are you?
stop hating irrationally -
there are a lot of problems and also drawbacks and points of criticism - I agree -
but stop comparing your leaders of the past to the great father of the nation - thinking that an attack on puppets is an attack on him.. all they did in the past was paralyzing the nation to the delight of our WWI enemies ...
let that sink - brother!
I am happy that the nation got modernized and stronger - relying on our own identity, on a great history!
Stop focusing on your bogeyman - take a look at the greater picture gardas...



Why ya'll look like you want to see BMC lose, even if that would be a bitter setback for the turkish nation, just cause you hating on AKP/Erdogan/Islam from all your heart? Wtf is this irrational disgusting anatolian mentality?

Yet again...An example for ''erdogan vision''.

milli-macta-oso-bayragi-acmak_1012033.jpg
 
Otokar wouldn't of been able to develop a Tank worthy of TSK praise without government paying $500mil to S. Korea Hyundai Rotem for assistance.

The main problem and reason why the discussion even started is, that Tank Palet/the 1st maintanance command center is being sold off. Noone cared too much when BMC got all the German assistance.

The issue here is far-reaching, I‘d say. Some facilties and know-how simply must stay with the military. Privatisation isn‘t postive in this case. This isn‘t even about the Altay tank anymore. But @ANMDT has already touched this topic anyways.

Apparently there is a court case being opened:

[https://www.aydinlik.com.tr/harb-is-ozellestirmeyi-yargiya-tasiyor-turkiye-aralik-2018]

I believe the outcome here will play an important part on how the future of other similar companies will be handled and the defence industry in general.

Talking about privatisation, the workers at Tank Palet seem not to be too happy about the situation either. Just a perspective that I’d like to add as someone who feels empathy for the fate of these workers. As they may or may not suffer in terms of worker rights. Which of course is just an assumption at this point, them putting up such strikes isn‘t a good sign however.

 
Last edited:

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom