Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[OguzSenturk]

and the fact that BMC is the only one out of the three that is investing to develop engines.

Aren't Altay engine and Altay serial production projects are two separate projects?

 

[anatolia]

İ dont understand why turkish members defend otokar like it is milli bullshit .. Koc family is sucking Turkish people since 1950s and they are richest family in turkey ... did they make national engine or car brand? They got paid to develop Altay. Idont like koc not cause politic . It is simply Koc is not brave enough to give more For Turkey .All they want assembly and make money..we have more chance to sell it abroad if Germany involved also Qatar can lobby to any arab country to sale ..once Bmc achieve engine problem I think we good to go

 

[xenon54 out]

İ dont understand why turkish members defend otokar like it is milli bullshit .. Koc family is sucking Turkish people since 1950s and they are richest family in turkey ... did they make national engine or car brand? They got paid to develop Altay. Idont like koc not cause politic . It is simply Koc is not brave enough to give more For Turkey .All they want assembly and make money..we have more chance to sell it abroad if Germany involved also Qatar can lobby to any arab country to sale ..once Bmc achieve engine problem I think we good to go

I will just leave a side the conspiracy theories trying to throw mud at the biggest investor in the country.
I have only seen one member suggesting Otokar should get it.
Theres also FNSS, if they would get it nobody would say a damn thing but the problem is people saw this coming months ago, just go to previous pages just i myself said 2-3 times BMC will get it, the question is how did i know that?
This is the problem here, and the people who defend this blatant corruption for political affiliations.

 

[BordoEnes]

İ dont understand why turkish members defend otokar like it is milli bullshit .. Koc family is sucking Turkish people since 1950s and they are richest family in turkey ... did they make national engine or car brand? They got paid to develop Altay. Idont like koc not cause politic . It is simply Koc is not brave enough to give more For Turkey .All they want assembly and make money..we have more chance to sell it abroad if Germany involved also Qatar can lobby to any arab country to sale ..once Bmc achieve engine problem I think we good to go

This is not about defending Otokar, this is about blatant deep running corruption within the state institutions. They didnt even bother to hide it in this case. The tender should have been a fair trial where everyone should get the same treatment as the next company, in this case the tend was flatout delayed until BMC could actually build up the capacity to produce tanks. Its obvious they prefered BMC from the get-go. BMC so far has been doing well only because they receive state funding and get the contracts which should have been gone to more capable and logical candidates. If you expect quality products from a company that thrives in corruption, you got a huge reality check waiting for you.

 

[what]

Banana Republic.

 

[Saithan]

Those are speculations. And BMC wouldn't have invested if they didn't already expect to win. So it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I think we'd all feel better of if we know what BAFO was. And what was it that made SSM choose BMC.

BMC wins contract for Turkey’s indigenous battle tank: Defense sources

BMC, a Turkish-Qatari armored vehicles manufacturer, has won a key contract on the road to developing and producing the country’s main battle tank, dubbed “Altay,” defense sources told state-run Anadolu Agency on April 24.

It was decided to start contract talks with BMC for the mass production of Altay and the development of its engine, according to sources.

Any financial or production details were not yet released.

In the Altay mass production race BMC was competing with FNSS and Koç Holding’s Otokar, the maker of Altay’s prototypes.

The companies, including the public engine maker Tümosan as well as BMC, Figes Fizik, Istanbul Denizcilik and Tusaş Motor, were last year invited to start work on the engine development.

After the news broke yesterday, Otokar shares fell by 6 percent and Tümosan shares by 4 in the main stock exchange.

Defense Minister Nurettin Canikli said last November that Turkey opened a tender to mass produce 500 Altay tanks, of which 250 were optional, and added that the tender would be finalized in the coming days.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/bm...indigenous-battle-tank-defense-sources-130836

 

[Dai Toruko]

Banana Republic.

 

[Timur]

dont understand why turkish members defend otokar like it is milli bullshit

I am not against bmc my problem lies in including germans.. Also if there is a any political favor because someone loves another person than I am against that..

Also I believe that if we would have began to build our own engine from the beginning than we would have one now.. At least we could have copy or learn from German engines and all other engines that are actually used in our military vehicles

So they will betray us and lick german feet while Germany is shitting in our faces specially for us Turks abroad who have to deal with the germans idiotic arguments almost every day

 

[anatolia]

I will just leave a side the conspiracy theories trying to throw mud at the biggest investor in the country.
I have only seen one member suggesting Otokar should get it.
Theres also FNSS, if they would get it nobody would say a damn thing but the problem is people saw this coming months ago, just go to previous pages just i myself said 2-3 times BMC will get it, the question is how did i know that?
This is the problem here, and the people who defend this blatant corruption for political affiliations.

lets wait details and judge later..

This is not about defending Otokar, this is about blatant deep running corruption within the state institutions. They didnt even bother to hide it in this case. The tender should have been a fair trial where everyone should get the same treatment as the next company, in this case the tend was flatout delayed until BMC could actually build up the capacity to produce tanks. Its obvious they prefered BMC from the get-go. BMC so far has been doing well only because they receive state funding and get the contracts which should have been gone to more capable and logical candidates. If you expect quality products from a company that thrives in corruption, you got a huge reality check waiting for you.

lets wait details.also koc is so busy with other things.Bmc is so eager to invest in this field..bmc also produce trucks and other vehicle.idont see any difference bmc and otokar on quality issues..

 

[Otonom Piyade]

May BMC go forth and prosper..

 

[azyr]

This is my first post here (except for the hello! one), so go easy

Also - hello everyone!

Now - back to the subject, AFAIK the situation is this ;

• SSM actually tasked TURMOSAN with an engine development for the Altay MBT but they failed mainly because of souring relations between the EU and Turkey.
• After this SSM started a tender regarding a multipurpose engine family development. Otokar was repeatedly asked to bid but unfortunately declined. BMC won this tender and is boasting a family up to 5000 HP. We'll see but I'm not optimistic.
• Apart from this there are also projects to develop UAV engines (which has already bared fruit for the ANKA), helicopter engines, missile and rocket engines (mainly for cruise missiles if i'm not mistaken?), jet fighter engines and finally commercial jet engines (which I've read are the hardest to develop?).
• One would expect the Altay MBT serial production and engine development to be unlinked at this point - but in a surprising (ehm..) move SSM decided to add "engine development" as a "must" to the tender rules. I'm speculating now but that kind of makes BMC as the sole supplier as neither Otokar nor FNSS has the capability to bid with this prerequisite in place. I'm guessing that SSM wanted to somehow punish Otokar for repeatedly snubbing engine development for the TAF when they where the most likely to succeed when you take into account their engineering past.

Now, about these three bidders ;

Otokar
I actually agree with SSM on this. While Otokar has overseen development for the Altay tank it was not their project to begin with. The parameters were set by SSM, most electronic systems were developed by Aselsan and the engineering was transferred from South Korea. This doesn't mean that they didn't have an important role to fill nor that they failed to measure up on the task. But it also doesn't mean that Otokar dreamed up the project, asked SSM to fill the requisiteries and created a new tank. The project was SSM's to begin with and Otokar was paid to audit it while also contribute to the engineering. Nothing more - nothing less.
With all her engineering capabilities Otokar has not once took a risk and developed an engine nor a critical compotent for the TAF. There are conspiracy theories that the Ford partnership they have holds them back and they don't want to risk angering the Americans. Personally I believe they're just plain old greedy and would not risk an R&D project when they can just pop up an assembly line and be rewarded for it. Sound familiar?

FNSS
The amount of support FNSS gets on military forums is unbalanced hugely. Like Otokar they've not done anything special apart from slapping on a chasis on imported technology and sold the product to the TAF. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the info I've managed to gather points me in this direction. They're also not a %100 Turkish company, %49 of her shares are owned by BAE. Which is fine by me but isn't this the main point BMC get's slack for?

BMC
Like the other two they haven't done anything special either. What they have done is win a bid specifically designed for them (engine contract) and get the tank contract as a reward. They're half owned by Qataris and they are also going to start a company with Rheinmetall to help with the Tank production. Nothing special about them so far and I wouldn't expect them to do anything else if the SSM hadn't pushed them.

Verdict
As you can see all 3 bidders are equally greedy capitalist companies (as they should be). IMO SSM was "nudged" by our very emotional president to "punish" Otokar (this is pure speculation by me btw). I think SSM should have awarded a contract for the 3 companies and speed up the project instead of awarding just one as non of them has done anything to be "awarded" for.

But I also think that people are overreacting and supporting these companies as if any of them has lifted a finger for this country - they haven't.

If you want examples of companies that actually risked their own money look at Vestel with Karayel. While they should've produced a small UAV to accompany their tactical one (as they were asked to do by the SSM) - they still developed a great UAV wholly knowing it might not be bought at all. Now they're looking for exports.

Look at Baykar. Yes SSM awarded them with contracts but each product they've come up with is generally over specification and delivered way under time. They are the original company that took risks when giants of the industry snubbed the TAF. These guys are true patriots in my book. But being linked with Erdoğan has put a stint on their image and everyone hates them for it. Really sad imo. Now they're working on a jet engine model UAV with the SSM's help. The difference though is the project was dreamed up by Baykar and SSM is helping. Nothing like the Altay MBT where it was pushed onto Otokar to manage it while being paid.

Just my 2cents... or looking back at those paragraphs 20 bucks?

Please feel free to correct my mistakes if you see them. I might be mistaken about some of the facts while researching them.

Regards, me

 

[Borg]

This is my first post here (except for the hello! one), so go easy

Also - hello everyone!

Now - back to the subject, AFAIK the situation is this ;

• SSM actually tasked TURMOSAN with an engine development for the Altay MBT but they failed mainly because of souring relations between the EU and Turkey.
• After this SSM started a tender regarding a multipurpose engine family development. Otokar was repeatedly asked to bid but unfortunately declined. BMC won this tender and is boasting a family up to 5000 HP. We'll see but I'm not optimistic.
• Apart from this there are also projects to develop UAV engines (which has already bared fruit for the ANKA), helicopter engines, missile and rocket engines (mainly for cruise missiles if i'm not mistaken?), jet fighter engines and finally commercial jet engines (which I've read are the hardest to develop?).
• One would expect the Altay MBT serial production and engine development to be unlinked at this point - but in a surprising (ehm..) move SSM decided to add "engine development" as a "must" to the tender rules. I'm speculating now but that kind of makes BMC as the sole supplier as neither Otokar nor FNSS has the capability to bid with this prerequisite in place. I'm guessing that SSM wanted to somehow punish Otokar for repeatedly snubbing engine development for the TAF when they where the most likely to succeed when you take into account their engineering past.

Now, about these three bidders ;

Otokar
I actually agree with SSM on this. While Otokar has overseen development for the Altay tank it was not their project to begin with. The parameters were set by SSM, most electronic systems were developed by Aselsan and the engineering was transferred from South Korea. This doesn't mean that they didn't have an important role to fill nor that they failed to measure up on the task. But it also doesn't mean that Otokar dreamed up the project, asked SSM to fill the requisiteries and created a new tank. The project was SSM's to begin with and Otokar was paid to audit it while also contribute to the engineering. Nothing more - nothing less.
With all her engineering capabilities Otokar has not once took a risk and developed an engine nor a critical compotent for the TAF. There are conspiracy theories that the Ford partnership they have holds them back and they don't want to risk angering the Americans. Personally I believe they're just plain old greedy and would not risk an R&D project when they can just pop up an assembly line and be rewarded for it. Sound familiar?

FNSS
The amount of support FNSS gets on military forums is unbalanced hugely. Like Otokar they've not done anything special apart from slapping on a chasis on imported technology and sold the product to the TAF. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the info I've managed to gather points me in this direction. They're also not a %100 Turkish company, %49 of her shares are owned by BAE. Which is fine by me but isn't this the main point BMC get's slack for?

BMC
Like the other two they haven't done anything special either. What they have done is win a bid specifically designed for them (engine contract) and get the tank contract as a reward. They're half owned by Qataris and they are also going to start a company with Rheinmetall to help with the Tank production. Nothing special about them so far and I wouldn't expect them to do anything else if the SSM hadn't pushed them.

Verdict
As you can see all 3 bidders are equally greedy capitalist companies (as they should be). IMO SSM was "nudged" by our very emotional president to "punish" Otokar (this is pure speculation by me btw). I think SSM should have awarded a contract for the 3 companies and speed up the project instead of awarding just one as non of them has done anything to be "awarded" for.

But I also think that people are overreacting and supporting these companies as if any of them has lifted a finger for this country - they haven't.

If you want examples of companies that actually risked their own money look at Vestel with Karayel. While they should've produced a small UAV to accompany their tactical one (as they were asked to do by the SSM) - they still developed a great UAV wholly knowing it might not be bought at all. Now they're looking for exports.

Look at Baykar. Yes SSM awarded them with contracts but each product they've come up with is generally over specification and delivered way under time. They are the original company that took risks when giants of the industry snubbed the TAF. These guys are true patriots in my book. But being linked with Erdoğan has put a stint on their image and everyone hates them for it. Really sad imo. Now they're working on a jet engine model UAV with the SSM's help. The difference though is the project was dreamed up by Baykar and SSM is helping. Nothing like the Altay MBT where it was pushed onto Otokar to manage it while being paid.

Just my 2cents... or looking back at those paragraphs 20 bucks?

Please feel free to correct my mistakes if you see them. I might be mistaken about some of the facts while researching them.

Regards, me

Very nice and almost neutral sumary! Why are so many Turks against presidents preference to some companys or their owners, aren't you able to see in most european countrys or in USA the same behaviour? As long as those companys do what they are payed for, all of them are payed and none has done anyting for free not even Otokar, imagin that, it is acceptable and should just go on. The goal must be development at hight speed especially when you see that none EU contry is actually ready to help you. They don't like you and they aren't helping you and it doesn't matter if you like Erdogan if you're religious or not, don't be fullish.

 

[Adıvar]

Very nice and almost neutral sumary! Why are so many Turks against presidents preference to some companys or their owners, aren't you able to see in most european countrys or in USA the same behaviour? As long as those companys do what they are payed for, all of them are payed and none has done anyting for free not even Otokar, imagin that, it is acceptable and should just go on. The goal must be development at hight speed especially when you see that none EU contry is actually ready to help you. They don't like you and they aren't helping you and it doesn't matter if you like Erdogan if you're religious or not, don't be fullish.

If we are talking by justice, free competetion and most importantly "national-indegenousness", neither the president nor his political party has the right to manipulate the bid.

The JV BMC (a 50% Qatari + 50% Turkish company) which was awarded by the government have no ability to accomplish the project so had to set up another partnership with a German firm.

So, the actual Turkish national share/contrubition in this project is now just 25%.

We patriots refuse and condemn this decision taken by the corrupted politicians...

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Is there even a state owned defence company in Germany? It didnt stop German goverment to sanction Turkey so far, how naive Turkish goverment must be to trust this project to foreigners, well its actually not naivity, theres another name for this.

You shouldn't comment on a topic if you don't have a clue.

The German government can not sanction JVs between foreign and German defence companies if they don't have their headquarter in Germany.

If we are talking by justice, free competetion and most importantly "national-indegenousness", neither the president nor his political party has the right to manipulate the bid.

The JV BMC (a 50% Qatari + 50% Turkish company) which was awarded by the government have no ability to do accomplish the project so had to set up another partnership with a German firm.

So, the Turkish national share in this project is now just 25%.

We patriots refuse and condemn this decision taken by the corrupted politicians...

As if Otokar is 100% Turkish... BMC is the better decision. They invested relatively more than Otokar. Koç is only interested in making money as fast as possible.

 

[Adıvar]

This is my first post here (except for the hello! one), so go easy

Also - hello everyone!

Now - back to the subject, AFAIK the situation is this ;

• SSM actually tasked TURMOSAN with an engine development for the Altay MBT but they failed mainly because of souring relations between the EU and Turkey.
• After this SSM started a tender regarding a multipurpose engine family development. Otokar was repeatedly asked to bid but unfortunately declined. BMC won this tender and is boasting a family up to 5000 HP. We'll see but I'm not optimistic.
• Apart from this there are also projects to develop UAV engines (which has already bared fruit for the ANKA), helicopter engines, missile and rocket engines (mainly for cruise missiles if i'm not mistaken?), jet fighter engines and finally commercial jet engines (which I've read are the hardest to develop?).
• One would expect the Altay MBT serial production and engine development to be unlinked at this point - but in a surprising (ehm..) move SSM decided to add "engine development" as a "must" to the tender rules. I'm speculating now but that kind of makes BMC as the sole supplier as neither Otokar nor FNSS has the capability to bid with this prerequisite in place. I'm guessing that SSM wanted to somehow punish Otokar for repeatedly snubbing engine development for the TAF when they where the most likely to succeed when you take into account their engineering past.

Now, about these three bidders ;

Otokar
I actually agree with SSM on this. While Otokar has overseen development for the Altay tank it was not their project to begin with. The parameters were set by SSM, most electronic systems were developed by Aselsan and the engineering was transferred from South Korea. This doesn't mean that they didn't have an important role to fill nor that they failed to measure up on the task. But it also doesn't mean that Otokar dreamed up the project, asked SSM to fill the requisiteries and created a new tank. The project was SSM's to begin with and Otokar was paid to audit it while also contribute to the engineering. Nothing more - nothing less.
With all her engineering capabilities Otokar has not once took a risk and developed an engine nor a critical compotent for the TAF. There are conspiracy theories that the Ford partnership they have holds them back and they don't want to risk angering the Americans. Personally I believe they're just plain old greedy and would not risk an R&D project when they can just pop up an assembly line and be rewarded for it. Sound familiar?

FNSS
The amount of support FNSS gets on military forums is unbalanced hugely. Like Otokar they've not done anything special apart from slapping on a chasis on imported technology and sold the product to the TAF. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the info I've managed to gather points me in this direction. They're also not a %100 Turkish company, %49 of her shares are owned by BAE. Which is fine by me but isn't this the main point BMC get's slack for?

BMC
Like the other two they haven't done anything special either. What they have done is win a bid specifically designed for them (engine contract) and get the tank contract as a reward. They're half owned by Qataris and they are also going to start a company with Rheinmetall to help with the Tank production. Nothing special about them so far and I wouldn't expect them to do anything else if the SSM hadn't pushed them.

Verdict
As you can see all 3 bidders are equally greedy capitalist companies (as they should be). IMO SSM was "nudged" by our very emotional president to "punish" Otokar (this is pure speculation by me btw). I think SSM should have awarded a contract for the 3 companies and speed up the project instead of awarding just one as non of them has done anything to be "awarded" for.

But I also think that people are overreacting and supporting these companies as if any of them has lifted a finger for this country - they haven't.

If you want examples of companies that actually risked their own money look at Vestel with Karayel. While they should've produced a small UAV to accompany their tactical one (as they were asked to do by the SSM) - they still developed a great UAV wholly knowing it might not be bought at all. Now they're looking for exports.

Look at Baykar. Yes SSM awarded them with contracts but each product they've come up with is generally over specification and delivered way under time. They are the original company that took risks when giants of the industry snubbed the TAF. These guys are true patriots in my book. But being linked with Erdoğan has put a stint on their image and everyone hates them for it. Really sad imo. Now they're working on a jet engine model UAV with the SSM's help. The difference though is the project was dreamed up by Baykar and SSM is helping. Nothing like the Altay MBT where it was pushed onto Otokar to manage it while being paid.

Just my 2cents... or looking back at those paragraphs 20 bucks?

Please feel free to correct my mistakes if you see them. I might be mistaken about some of the facts while researching them.

Regards, me

A post full of assumptions, speculations. Not convincing at all..

As if Otokar is 100% Turkish... BMC is the better decision. They invested relatively more than Otokar. Koç is only interested in making money as fast as possible.

How it is not?
https://www.kap.org.tr/tr/sirket-bilgileri/genel/1046-otokar-otomotiv-ve-savunma-sanayi-a-s