Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[Mr.Department]

‎

Fiat MTCA 12V; 950 kW should be under consideration if we are taking this route. But afaik Germany made it clear engines aren't under embargo. So there is no need to look elsewhere until we develop our engine.

I wrote about Fiat engine and criticized KOC Holding, cause they are main partner of global FIAT ;
but took only the 500 Mio USD and played 3 monkeys. Maybe they paid .....

We talk about power not speed only.

I could show you Torque statistics with other innovative engines and not this 30 year old German scrap,
you can't imagine.

 

[-------]

Defence Turkey: How is the ongoing Development of an Active Protection System (AKKOR) for the “Altay” MBT proceeding? Could you please inform us on the latest developments?

There are a very limited number of countries in the world which could achieve developing and producing an Active Protection System (AKKOR) as an end product. Therefore, the design process needs to be studiously maintained; the system has to be verified through numerous firing tests and the protection level has to be identified. The conceptual design process is on its course within the scope of the AKKOR Project. We plan to initiate the critical design stage in the first quarter of 2018. During the activities, various factors such as AKKOR System’s operating concept, counter measure scenarios, tank crew’s utilization scenarios, system’s integration to Altay MBT, threat ammunition data, etc. are being probed and the decisions made provide input to the design of the AKKOR system. With the help of the achievements acquired throughout the aforesaid process, activities to establish AKKOR Systems suitable for utilization in various armored vehicles that could operate in various concepts are being conducted as well.

 

[Saithan]

British Caterpillar offers engine support for domestically developed Altay tank of Turkey

At a time when Germany has announced that it has stopped exporting arms to Turkey, an alternative partnership offer for the Altay tank engine has come from British Caterpillar. The company has proposed a new generation CV12 type engine, according to a report by Turkish daily Habertürk.

The German MTU engine was used in the prototype production of the Altay tank. The use of the MTU engine was also planned for mass production. However, when Germany's threatening attitudes toward Turkey led to question marks, an alternative search for tank engines began.

The Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) has initiated talks with the British Caterpillar firm. The first contact between SSM and Caterpillar was held in Ankara and the second at the Defense and Security Equipment International (DSEI) fair in the U.K. It is stated that the British company proposed a new generation "CV12" type engine for use in the Altay tank. The British authorities also noted that they regard the production of this engine in Turkey positively. The same engine is also used in the Challenger tanks produced for the British army.

Some 250 Altay tanks are foreseen to be produced for the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) in the first package. It is aimed to produce a total of 1,000 tanks in the long run. The prototype production of the Altay tank was realized by OTOKAR affiliated with Koç Group. However, no contract has been signed with OTOKAR for mass production. In the mass production tender, OTOKAR competes with German-partnered RBSS consortium, which also includes BMC, and Turkish-British partnership FNSS.

Turkey has been cooperating with Germany for many years in the power group production of projects such as national ships, national submarines and national tanks. Diplomatic developments led to the opening of a new window with the U.K. this time, which later paved the way for cooperation with the said country in engine technology. Turkey and the U.K. are also collaborating on Turkey's national fighter jet project "TF-X," whose engine will be developed by receiving technology support from the U.K.

source: https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...r-domestically-developed-altay-tank-of-turkey

 

[Mr.Department]

British Caterpillar offers engine support for domestically developed Altay tank of Turkey

At a time when Germany has announced that it has stopped exporting arms to Turkey, an alternative partnership offer for the Altay tank engine has come from British Caterpillar. The company has proposed a new generation CV12 type engine, according to a report by Turkish daily Habertürk.

The German MTU engine was used in the prototype production of the Altay tank. The use of the MTU engine was also planned for mass production. However, when Germany's threatening attitudes toward Turkey led to question marks, an alternative search for tank engines began.

The Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) has initiated talks with the British Caterpillar firm. The first contact between SSM and Caterpillar was held in Ankara and the second at the Defense and Security Equipment International (DSEI) fair in the U.K. It is stated that the British company proposed a new generation "CV12" type engine for use in the Altay tank. The British authorities also noted that they regard the production of this engine in Turkey positively. The same engine is also used in the Challenger tanks produced for the British army.

Some 250 Altay tanks are foreseen to be produced for the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) in the first package. It is aimed to produce a total of 1,000 tanks in the long run. The prototype production of the Altay tank was realized by OTOKAR affiliated with Koç Group. However, no contract has been signed with OTOKAR for mass production. In the mass production tender, OTOKAR competes with German-partnered RBSS consortium, which also includes BMC, and Turkish-British partnership FNSS.

Turkey has been cooperating with Germany for many years in the power group production of projects such as national ships, national submarines and national tanks. Diplomatic developments led to the opening of a new window with the U.K. this time, which later paved the way for cooperation with the said country in engine technology. Turkey and the U.K. are also collaborating on Turkey's national fighter jet project "TF-X," whose engine will be developed by receiving technology support from the U.K.

source: https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...r-domestically-developed-altay-tank-of-turkey

Brother look here please

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkish-powerpack-projects-update-discussion.300889/page-36

 

[kartal1]

Brother look here please

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkish-powerpack-projects-update-discussion.300889/page-36

Haha Someone is reading our posts .

 

[-SINAN-]

British Caterpillar offers engine support for domestically developed Altay tank of Turkey

At a time when Germany has announced that it has stopped exporting arms to Turkey, an alternative partnership offer for the Altay tank engine has come from British Caterpillar. The company has proposed a new generation CV12 type engine, according to a report by Turkish daily Habertürk.

The German MTU engine was used in the prototype production of the Altay tank. The use of the MTU engine was also planned for mass production. However, when Germany's threatening attitudes toward Turkey led to question marks, an alternative search for tank engines began.

The Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) has initiated talks with the British Caterpillar firm. The first contact between SSM and Caterpillar was held in Ankara and the second at the Defense and Security Equipment International (DSEI) fair in the U.K. It is stated that the British company proposed a new generation "CV12" type engine for use in the Altay tank. The British authorities also noted that they regard the production of this engine in Turkey positively. The same engine is also used in the Challenger tanks produced for the British army.

Some 250 Altay tanks are foreseen to be produced for the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) in the first package. It is aimed to produce a total of 1,000 tanks in the long run. The prototype production of the Altay tank was realized by OTOKAR affiliated with Koç Group. However, no contract has been signed with OTOKAR for mass production. In the mass production tender, OTOKAR competes with German-partnered RBSS consortium, which also includes BMC, and Turkish-British partnership FNSS.

Turkey has been cooperating with Germany for many years in the power group production of projects such as national ships, national submarines and national tanks. Diplomatic developments led to the opening of a new window with the U.K. this time, which later paved the way for cooperation with the said country in engine technology. Turkey and the U.K. are also collaborating on Turkey's national fighter jet project "TF-X," whose engine will be developed by receiving technology support from the U.K.

source: https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...r-domestically-developed-altay-tank-of-turkey

CV12-1200TCA

Engine power output (h.p.): 1200
Number of cylinders: 12
Rated speed (r.p.m.): 2300

You know MTU engine is 1500 HP. However when you further read the article.

Perkins' own continuing programmes in^the field of armoured fighting vehicles involve installation studies and prototype builds to assess the suitability of Condor for retrofit opportunities in such vehicles as M1 Abrams and Leclerc, both at 1,500 bhp, Chieftain and Centurion at 750, 900 and 1,000 bhp, T-series and AMX-30 at 800 bhp, AMX-30 at 740 bhp and M41 at 475 bhp.

So, it's the same power output. However we also need to know the torque output. (MTU engine has 5000Nm torque)

 

[Mr.Department]

At the top of the power spectrum is Perkins Condor V-12 which is installed in the Challenger MBT in a 880 kW form but has been demonstrated at 1100 kW
and is said to have the potential for development up to 1470 kW. ( 2000 HP)
This proven technology positions Perkins well to adopt a "power pack approach", matching engines and transmission.

German's are faking often figures, to get advantage in competition " Diesel Skandal ".

Maximum torque :

Gross torque : 4126 Nm at 1700 RPM
Net torque :


http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39208

 

[Saithan]

Brother look here please

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkish-powerpack-projects-update-discussion.300889/page-36

I read that thread as a "turkish powerpack project", and not a thread where we share news of engines we buy...

 

[YoungTurk01]

CV12-1200TCA

Engine power output (h.p.): 1200
Number of cylinders: 12
Rated speed (r.p.m.): 2300

You know MTU engine is 1500 HP. However when you further read the article.

Perkins' own continuing programmes in^the field of armoured fighting vehicles involve installation studies and prototype builds to assess the suitability of Condor for retrofit opportunities in such vehicles as M1 Abrams and Leclerc, both at 1,500 bhp, Chieftain and Centurion at 750, 900 and 1,000 bhp, T-series and AMX-30 at 800 bhp, AMX-30 at 740 bhp and M41 at 475 bhp.

So, it's the same power output. However we also need to know the torque output. (MTU engine has 5000Nm torque)

Tongue you can guess 1430 ish or little over 1500.

 

[-SINAN-]

Tongue you can guess 1430 ish or little over 1500.

Let's not speculate over imaginary numbers.

 

[YoungTurk01]

Let's not speculate over imaginary numbers.

No need to speculate anything, HP and torgue goes parallel to each other in any engine.
Which I build engine my self.
Depends on engine horse power may lower or higher in very small amount. (500 hp more then likely have 480 torgue)
Diesel engine has more to torque then hp, the reason behind it is torgeu gives more pulling or towing capacity to vehicles, some engine builders can change compression ration via changing engine s crank shaft and piston s arm length ( which u can use longer or shorter pistons arms that would effect compression ratio which that will effect hp and torque.)
You may look on any Dino test you ll see the HP and Trq curves up together which that will effect by what RPM limits your engine has, that would effect cam shaft lifting ratio 5000 rpm solid roller cam shafts can goes up 7000 rpm. Thank you

 

[YoungTurk01]

No need to speculate anything, HP and torgue goes parallel to each other in any engine.
Which I build engine my self.
Depends on engine horse power may lower or higher in very small amount. (500 hp more then likely have 480 torgue)
Diesel engine has more to torque then hp, the reason behind it is torgeu gives more pulling or towing capacity to vehicles, some engine builders can change compression ration via changing engine s crank shaft and piston s arm length ( which u can use longer or shorter pistons arms that would effect compression ratio which that will effect hp and torque.)
You may look on any Dino test you ll see the HP and Trq curves up together which that will effect by what RPM limits your engine has, that would effect cam shaft lifting ratio 5000 rpm solid roller cam shafts can goes up 7000 rpm. Thank you

No need to speculate anything, HP and torgue goes parallel to each other in any engine.
Which I build engine my self.
Depends on engine horse power may lower or higher in very small amount. (500 hp more then likely have 480 torgue)
Diesel engine has more to torque then hp, the reason behind it is torgeu gives more pulling or towing capacity to vehicles, some engine builders can change compression ration via changing engine s crank shaft and piston s arm length ( which u can use longer or shorter pistons arms that would effect compression ratio which that will effect hp and torque.)
You may look on any Dino test you ll see the HP and Trq curves up together which that will effect by what RPM limits your engine has, that would effect cam shaft lifting ratio 5000 rpm solid roller cam shafts can goes up 7000 rpm. Thank you

However that HP on dyno stand different then on street, why?

That power goes to flex plate to torque converter if transmission automatic if manual uses clutch. That goes transmission. Clutch or torque converter parallel spec with cam shaft if cam shaft can handle 5000 rpm, torque converter and transmission must be handle that number. If can not then u lose power and can not transfer that power to your tires, track, pallet whatever you are using to move the vehicle.

 

[Saithan]

No need to speculate anything, HP and torgue goes parallel to each other in any engine.
Which I build engine my self.
Depends on engine horse power may lower or higher in very small amount. (500 hp more then likely have 480 torgue)
Diesel engine has more to torque then hp, the reason behind it is torgeu gives more pulling or towing capacity to vehicles, some engine builders can change compression ration via changing engine s crank shaft and piston s arm length ( which u can use longer or shorter pistons arms that would effect compression ratio which that will effect hp and torque.)
You may look on any Dino test you ll see the HP and Trq curves up together which that will effect by what RPM limits your engine has, that would effect cam shaft lifting ratio 5000 rpm solid roller cam shafts can goes up 7000 rpm. Thank you

Your explanation was easy to follow, thank you.

If you build engines yourself. Can you tell us why it's so difficult for Turkey to build an engine ?
Or is the problem related to making the process automatic ?

It would be pretty awesome if you could/able to evaluate the MBT engine options we have where you compare the torque and HP of these engines. I imagine that depending on the "battlefield" some of the engines need more power to pull the weight, than actual speed.

If I should compare something (that I don't quite understand why) I'd say older cars with 2.0 engine / 144HP (car weighs 1650 kilo) may not have the necessary power to pull a trailer above 2000 kilo (2 ton), but never cars with 2.0 engine /144 HP (maybe even lower) may have the necessary power to pull 2000 kilo (2 ton).

So I hope you see that it can be rather confusing to talk about a MBT engine that is different/smaller than the 1500 HP being used to move it around.

 

[-SINAN-]

No need to speculate anything, HP and torgue goes parallel to each other in any engine.
Which I build engine my self.
Depends on engine horse power may lower or higher in very small amount. (500 hp more then likely have 480 torgue)
Diesel engine has more to torque then hp, the reason behind it is torgeu gives more pulling or towing capacity to vehicles, some engine builders can change compression ration via changing engine s crank shaft and piston s arm length ( which u can use longer or shorter pistons arms that would effect compression ratio which that will effect hp and torque.)
You may look on any Dino test you ll see the HP and Trq curves up together which that will effect by what RPM limits your engine has, that would effect cam shaft lifting ratio 5000 rpm solid roller cam shafts can goes up 7000 rpm. Thank you

MTU engine 1500 HP, 5000 NM Torque.

Your knowledge about diesel engines astonished me.

 

[YoungTurk01]

MTU engine 1500 HP, 5000 NM Torque.

Your knowledge about diesel engines astonished me.

The equation that Watt created has been simplified to: Torque x RPM / 5,252 = HP

To give this an example, let’s say our engine makes 300 lb-ft of torque. At 3,000 rpm this means the engine is only making 171 horsepower (300 x 3,000 / 5,252 = 171). However, if we add performance parts to our engine and spin it a little faster, it is capable of making that same 300 lb-ft of torque at 6,000 rpm. By doubling the rpm at which the engine can make power – we now have a more powerful engine making 342 or twice the horsepower. The reason for this doubling of horsepower is that the engine is making the same torque in exactly half the time of the first engine – 6,000 instead of 3,000 rpm. Given the choice, most companys would choose the more powerful engine. But in the performance world, things get a bit more complicated.

The equation that Watt created has been simplified to: Torque x RPM / 5,252 = HP

To give this an example, let’s say our engine makes 300 lb-ft of torque. At 3,000 rpm this means the engine is only making 171 horsepower (300 x 3,000 / 5,252 = 171). However, if we add performance parts to our engine and spin it a little faster, it is capable of making that same 300 lb-ft of torque at 6,000 rpm. By doubling the rpm at which the engine can make power – we now have a more powerful engine making 342 or twice the horsepower. The reason for this doubling of horsepower is that the engine is making the same torque in exactly half the time of the first engine – 6,000 instead of 3,000 rpm. Given the choice, most companys would choose the more powerful engine. But in the performance world, things get a bit more complicated.

The equation that Watt created has been simplified to: Torque x RPM / 5,252 = HP

To give this an example, let’s say our engine makes 300 lb-ft of torque. At 3,000 rpm this means the engine is only making 171 horsepower (300 x 3,000 / 5,252 = 171). However, if we add performance parts to our engine and spin it a little faster, it is capable of making that same 300 lb-ft of torque at 6,000 rpm. By doubling the rpm at which the engine can make power – we now have a more powerful engine making 342 or twice the horsepower. The reason for this doubling of horsepower is that the engine is making the same torque in exactly half the time of the first engine – 6,000 instead of 3,000 rpm. Given the choice, most companys would choose the more powerful engine. But in the performance world, things get a bit more complicated.

If you read my first post I sad diesels make more torque then regular engine, however the number u r giving is not realistic.

Your explanation was easy to follow, thank you.

If you build engines yourself. Can you tell us why it's so difficult for Turkey to build an engine ?
Or is the problem related to making the process automatic ?

It would be pretty awesome if you could/able to evaluate the MBT engine options we have where you compare the torque and HP of these engines. I imagine that depending on the "battlefield" some of the engines need more power to pull the weight, than actual speed.

If I should compare something (that I don't quite understand why) I'd say older cars with 2.0 engine / 144HP (car weighs 1650 kilo) may not have the necessary power to pull a trailer above 2000 kilo (2 ton), but never cars with 2.0 engine /144 HP (maybe even lower) may have the necessary power to pull 2000 kilo (2 ton).

So I hope you see that it can be rather confusing to talk about a MBT engine that is different/smaller than the 1500 HP being used to move it around.

That's good question,
Our old politician s and old NATO as kiss ing generals manipulated and hold back our country decades.
However things are changed now Turkey is not the Same Turkey anymore, things are moving forward. I believe we will have the engine we need pretty soon.

" Reis" in soyledigi gibi kotu komsu bizi ev sahibi yapacak.