Altaf forgives Nawaz, Army officials for 1992 operation

[pak-marine]

personally i don't see much difference between Zardari and Nawaz Sharif.
Both will cause more or less the same harm to Pakistan.
I always had this thought that Nawaz is going to be the next puppet of America after Zardari and after his long meetings with Zionist's such as Hoolbrooke i have little doubt left that Nawaz is an upcomming American puppet ( if he isnt already one now )

Altaf, nawaz & zardari are elected leaders of there respective locations, after this 92 operation statement given by several ex generals and i am very sure it has just started there is a lot more to come .....may b, give it few more months and who knows we might be able to know the real facts as early as Liaquat Ali khans asasination. After these statments i just think all that made up against all 3 of them could be some ones conspiracy for obvious political and financial reasons.There is a big chance that a large part of cases against them is propoganda nothing else.

Only God knows untill what extent millitary is involved in Pakistani politics .... and bigger question is what are their motives ,,with all due respect and faith in armys defence capabiliites i just hope they get back to baracks soon and do what they are supposed to do.

 

[batmannow]

personally i don't see much difference between Zardari and Nawaz Sharif.
Both will cause more or less the same harm to Pakistan.

I always had this thought that Nawaz is going to be the next puppet of America after Zardari and after his long meetings with Zionist's such as Hoolbrooke i have little doubt left that Nawaz is an upcomming American puppet ( if he isnt already one now )

you are 100% right, my dear sir!
but the real , fact which our US allies always , forget is tht, there is our political leadership for sale & there are some forces, who dont like that all , not today but some day, they will change all this rubbish , & dirty mess, inshallaha.

 

[Bane Blade]

Bane Blade, sir!
off course, your's & mine's point of view is way different!

i am in favour, of well educated but poor pakistanis peoples in power, who till right now! were denied of clean drinking water, electriccity, & even a home?

i really dont mind, tht you & your wildest & full of fun dreams about CJ:chowdry deliverence of justice to the poors & "nawab sharif shahib's"inability to be a head of goverment , will always bond to bring a previlleged class of pakistanis , track records of both gentelmens are clearly proves , thier luxrious style & thier zeal to power is horribly dangerous, & it doesnt suitted for pakistan's next leadership.

i think , its the time when we all , should give up our intelectual, likes or dislikes & we should stand togather, with unity faith & dicipline, we should give each other, some forgivness, to become a "super united pakistan" where every body can live happly, with equal respect , & mutual understanding.

there is no one in pakistani politics, who's hands are clean!
so, for the sake "best posible pakistan" we should give up , all the remaining differences , & try find common grounds , where we all , can be come one nation.
thts my pakistan?
I SI?
sir, ISI is a king maker, in the past , as it will remain today!
if we, dont put checks in the form of ISI, to these crooked pakistani politicians, how could we stop them looting more , wealth of pakistan, i guss ISI , needs more professionals in its , political wing , so tht they can see the true colours of our dearest , greedy politicians, before they can harm pakistan.
yes, ISI had thier bad days , but with growing experinces, ISI is doing really fine,& i hope, they are going to trun pakistan into , true modrate islamic NUCKLEAR STATE.
Which can, protect the all of muslim, UMMA & can UNITE ALL THE MUSLIM S OF THE WORLD, to defend islam with knowledge & peace!
altaf hussain, did bad ! i didnt give him vote
but ,if he is doing good for pakistan, thn its my duty to give him my vote, & incourge him to , do more goods for pakistan.

Sir batmannow

I would vote for any honest man with a clear history but I know that the ISI would never let him win that is because ISI would never allow people to whole heartedly support the civilian government which will make them lose their control, I am sure that the people of Pakistan if educated correctly can rise to form a better Pakistan but an ISI will continue to bring Nawaz Sharif types which will in turn make the situation worse so let us hope that the ISI has its political wing finished. This way more honest people can start proper work on our nation.

Altaf Hussain is on Karachi streets like Big Brother and that kind of totalitarian control is dangerous. A person who will sleep with any one just to stay in cabinet will never get my vote where is the mans principles his duty to his manifesto. If he wants money then it would be better to vote PML(N) or PPP.

I would never want to see a moderate Islamic state because such a thing would be very contradictory to views supported by many good conservative muslims myself included. Altaf Hussain or any other politician is going to continue to fail in bringing progress to this nation if they don't stand with their principles, all the pretty work is very cute and nice for their facade and I agree that you should vote for them but only at council levels, they haven't come up with any good foreign policy in their manifesto and a party that isn't democratic on the inside can't be democratic on the outside.

As for my reasons for PML(N) I have mentioned them before however I feel that they are no better because even they are a army created party. It is terrible the control that PAKarmy has on our politics but hoping for the best I am sure that they will bring their own downfall which will once and for all rid them from our leadership and political setup. ISI's control on our politics is taking away our freedom away from us I can't believe that you even dare to propose that they control our setup in anyway.

 

[pak-marine]

I would vote for any honest man with a clear history but I know that the ISI would never let him win that is because ISI would never allow people to whole heartedly support the civilian government which will make them lose their control, I am sure that the people of Pakistan if educated correctly can rise to form a better Pakistan but an ISI will continue to bring Nawaz Sharif types which will in turn make the situation worse so let us hope that the ISI has its political wing finished. This way more honest people can start proper work on our nation.

Than Altaf Hussain have been correct so far ! he is been blaming the estabilishment i.e: isi ,wadera and choudhrys since day looking at present statements its only ones guess that all the Heat on MQM was mainly because they were after the dirty Big fish.

Altaf Hussain is on Karachi streets like Big Brother and that kind of totalitarian control is dangerous. A person who will sleep with any one just to stay in cabinet will never get my vote where is the mans principles his duty to his manifesto. If he wants money then it would be better to vote PML(N) or PPP.

its proven Khi streets are the most dangerous in the world i wont be wrong in saying but out of the big 17-18million every house hold is effected one way or another ,the incapable, useless and corroupt law enforcement is like SONAY PAR SOHAGA!. Trust me on this sir those streets need controlling from some one who knows the neighbourhood and the people. MQM cant counter all the mess it self being a political party but we khietes give them credit for whatever they are doing to conrol this azab we have ,where as like other places we have also been to Lahore and you dont see such mixed up population there . Reasons for these crimes are obvious unaccounted people i.e mix of illegal foreignors and people from rest of Pakistan are housed backed by the mafia and law enforcement in all areas, For me and i gues for many with A brain cell this is a clear message that the ruling elite or the one in control dont want peace here! Lahore is similar to khi huge population but you dont see such things there ! so my question is why such SOTELAPAN with khi!!? All pakistanis have equal rights to go any where they want but no one has any right to occupy Govt and private land.

I would never want to see a moderate Islamic state because such a thing would be very contradictory to views supported by many good conservative muslims myself included. Altaf Hussain or any other politician is going to continue to fail in bringing progress to this nation if they don't stand with their principles, all the pretty work is very cute and nice for their facade and I agree that you should vote for them but only at council levels, they haven't come up with any good foreign policy in their manifesto and a party that isn't democratic on the inside can't be democratic on the outside.

a modern Islamic state at this moment it would be too much to ask,At the moment we dont a for eg: "rocket scientist" to work out the foriegn policy we simply need to stick to basics given by the great Quaideazam to work out our foriegn policy and that will lead to a awsome pakistan the guy thought of it 60year back its written all over the place but never put into practice. Lastly when some being told they are minority and one is cornered to the wall using all sorts of wicked method please agree with me there is only little one can do.

As for my reasons for PML(N) I have mentioned them before however I feel that they are no better because even they are a army created party. It is terrible the control that PAKarmy has on our politics but hoping for the best I am sure that they will bring their own downfall which will once and for all rid them from our leadership and political setup. ISI's control on our politics is taking away our freedom away from us I can't believe that you even dare to propose that they control our setup in anyway.

I fully agree with you and hope it happens sooner than later.Amen!!

 

[All-Green]

We talk about revolutions and grand changes but forget that reconciliation and unification more than summary executions were the greatest traits of the best leaders in the world.

The way Prophet Muhammad PBUH always played the role of peacemaker and even compromised in way of peace at Hudaibiya to show to us Muslims that in life pride and anger need to be swallowed and one has to look at the bigger picture.
Salahuddin the most famous Sultan in our history was patient and lenient with many of the princes and rulers who always gave him trouble and even in the face of crusaders could not stop arguing over petty disputes; yet Salahuddin always found a way to unify the various factions in face of common enemy and to pursue the common goals.
This was the quality which made him successful where most would fail.

We talk about failed system, about how everything is the fault of the system, how everyone else is to blame... but i say to you that do look around you and in every little thing you will see why we are standing where we are.
Stand in queue for anything in Pakistan and you will understand in half an hour what i mean.
We ourselves also are seduced by money and time saving shortcuts even when they are illegal, immoral or unethical.
We ourselves are prone to violence and heated exchanges on the streets.
We ourselves are always finding ways to segregate and brand others as anything but Pakistani.
We ourselves believe in all other systems but what the Quaid envisioned for us...even though we do not endeavor to achieve the unity, faith and discipline in any form of our life, we blame Pakistan for our misfortunes...

We have many who have the guts to say that Jinnah was more a British in nature...i think Jinnah was a great Muslim and you know why i say it?
He was dead honest.
Never Lied.
Worked the hardest.
Loathed nepotism and never made anything for his family.
Led the Muslims at a time when he was terminally ill and still gave it all to give the Muslims their wish of a separate homeland.
What else is there in being a Muslim...still he is not Muslim enough for a nation in which the spiritual Muslim leaders are diesel smugglers, weapons dealers and gangsters who perpetrate organized terrorism!

We all say kalma my brothers but when it comes to practice the values of Islam in real life where do we stand?
By values i do not mean the flaunted shariah which no body interprets correctly...it is the values which i do not see in anyone around us because we all have been led to believe that smart-a**es and liars who trick the system are the real cool cats....honesty and truthfulness and hard work are for donkeys and the feeble minded...

I dislike the politicians for many well researched reasons and so have reasonable knowledge on some of their disgusting actions which i hate.
Still if anyone today stands for Pakistan and wants to take it forward, i would welcome him with open arms and suppress the hatred and forget the pain.

In real life we have many falling outs and disagreements, some people we choose to breakaway from but still it is always better to reconcile and have salaam dua atleast in order to have a working and courteous relationship.

Same is the case here, even if we do not love Altaf Hussain or any other politician for that matter, we should appreciate if anything they say or do is good for Pakistan.
However for anything that is not in favor of Pakistan, we need to criticize them regardless of what our affiliation with them is...

The only workable way out is to give democracy a chance and actively play our role to control our elected representatives...this can be done
Whatever we wish for, Judiciary and the Army will have to play some role in it...
Army and judiciary need to balance the politicians in a positive manner and this was evident in the whole Chief Justice episode.

What jahagir Karamat proposed long time ago and was sacked for it by the dictatorial Nawaz was not far off the mark...we need to have a national security council which needs to be represented by Army and Judiciary as well.
Only when we give the due role to these two institutes shall we be able to strike a genuine balance.
Once they have their due part in determining the course of the country they shall not need to break from the system.

 

[Bane Blade]

I agree a lot with your views on people however I feel that ISI needs to be kicked out of any such council that Gen. Karamat proposed.

 

[All-Green]

I agree a lot with your views on people however I feel that ISI needs to be kicked out of any such council that Gen. Karamat proposed.

It will solve most of the problem as far as i see.
ISI would report its findings to COAS who would have an official position to not only raise his concerns (which he has the right as per his designation) but also to vote against anything that the political administration is doing against the national interest.
This minimizes the chance of Army exploring other avenues to safeguard national security and interests.
A supreme council or national security council is not a bad idea.
It will make things more transparent and cohesive.

However these politicians would vehemently oppose any idea to share power of decision making which they only do so out of their corrupt desires, otherwise we all know their mental capacity or the lack of, to devise any long term plan for the betterment of Pakistan.

It is a pity that despite all the mistakes he made...Musharraf was still a much better leader than these people who cannot even resolve simple matters and instead choose overly complex routes to resolve any problem.

Read about the current energy crisis and this new RPP which will cripple the masses and yet will be a temporary measure of 5 years.
We shall waste billions of dollars on a 2nd hand equipment which shall be taken away after 5 years, instead of clearing the IPP bills and letting them produce at much better rate...this is the sort of idiocity that we have to put up with...

Still despite all urges, i keep in mind that we do have to go through this pain of maturing as a democracy, however we should be more active and strong as a nation to take a principled stand.

 

[batmannow]

It will solve most of the problem as far as i see.
ISI would report its findings to COAS who would have an official position to not only raise his concerns (which he has the right as per his designation) but also to vote against anything that the political administration is doing against the national interest.
This leaves the chance of Army exploring other avenues to safeguard national security and interests.
A supreme council or national security council is not a bad idea.
It will make things more transparent and cohesive.

However these politicians would vehemently oppose any idea to share power of decision making which they only do so out of their corrupt desires, otherwise we all know their mental capacity or the lack of, to devise any long term plan for the betterment of Pakistan.

It is a pity that despite all the mistakes he made...Musharraf was still a much better leader than these people who cannot even resolve simple matters and instead choose overly complex routes to resolve any problem.

Read about the current energy crisis and this new RPP which will cripple the masses and yet will be a temporary measure of 5 years.
We shall waste billions of dollars on a 2nd hand equipment which shall be taken away after 5 years, instead of clearing the IPP bills and letting them produce at much better rate...this is the sort of idiocity that we have to put up with...

Still despite all urges, i keep in mind that we do have to go through this pain of maturing as a democracy, however we should be more active and strong as a nation to take a principled stand.

thanks for the addition, dear sir!
actully our youngstrs, always feel in that direction , when they couldnt find , any good reason , for the under-devolpment of pakistan, they always blame PAKARMY & ISI, which is unacceptable.
i guss , they need to learn tht, ISI was been formed by a politician!

Also , we pakistanis should concentrate to be united , but not toBE divided, pakistani politicians are like fruits , if you didnt get good taste , you always can buy new 1, just remember tht, when you are about to vote one of them?
i guss, there is a need , that we should understand ourselves , tht not only politicians , or MILITRY is resposible for the worst, infact its US ! YES we ? common citizens of pakistan , who elect these politicians , so if we , change our way of thinking , which is to select same peoples ,for the next trem.
till that if we , are not going to change that, mentallity , we will never can be able to grow, we need to give more chances , to the smaller parties, & we should give , new faces to power grid of pakistan.
i found it , very sound tht , you describe MR, MUSHARAF bieng the best ever president of pakistan, i fully support & agree with your this , sentence.
thanks
LONG LIVE PAKISTAN, LONG LIVE "PAKARMY" , LONG LIVE ISI, LONG LIVE PEOPLES OF PAKISTAN.

 

[Bane Blade]

Young men will blame the ISI untill they are sure it is completely out of politics and that should remain the case, because all intelligence agencies are out of politics except the moussad

 

[ice_man]

see currently ISI is our front & last line of defence against internal and external threats!!!

so we cannot "kick out" the ISI we shouldn't.....this is what our enemies want....they want us to turn on each other and specially the pakistani people to turn against the only line of defence the ISI.

as for General Imtiaz his credibility is seriously questionable so first i don't agree to the notion all what he said was the truth!!!

we all know that in politics no one is NOT CORRUPT....everyone is corrupt and no one is sattar edhi!!

the best way forward for the youth and the ordinary people is to boycott voting the same PESTS into power over and over again!!! no more Nawaz,PPP,Zaradari or Altaf & MQM......

new leaders is the way forward....in islam it says a true muslim never gets bitten twice from the same hole.....while we keep choosing the same people all our lives!!!

 

[batmannow]

see currently ISI is our front & last line of defence against internal and external threats!!!

so we cannot "kick out" the ISI we shouldn't.....this is what our enemies want....they want us to turn on each other and specially the pakistani people to turn against the only line of defence the ISI.

as for General Imtiaz his credibility is seriously questionable so first i don't agree to the notion all what he said was the truth!!!

we all know that in politics no one is NOT CORRUPT....everyone is corrupt and no one is sattar edhi!!

the best way forward for the youth and the ordinary people is to boycott voting the same PESTS into power over and over again!!! no more Nawaz,PPP,Zaradari or Altaf & MQM......

new leaders is the way forward....in islam it says a true muslim never gets bitten twice from the same hole.....while we keep choosing the same people all our lives!!!

even tht is good!
ya, every thn & now, there is only one demand , which is to dump ISI?
i , feel dejected , when i see peoples , demanding ISI, OUT of WORK, just because IT , did some thing wrong in the past?

plz , look around the world, why USA didnt dump , CIA after thier worse defeat by vietkong GURRIELLAS in vietnam?
why not RUSSIA dump , thier KGB , after RUSSIA BEING divided , because of the war in AFGHANISTAN? & FROM WHERE MR, PUTIN CAME BACK TO BE president & PRIME MINSTER of RUSSIAN FEDRATION?
PLZ, do more study, about the roles of the major intell organizations, around the globe, I GUSS after a good look on the major intell organization , we can learn tht, there are times when many of them , had done something wrong, but most of the times , they succses fully have protected thier respective nations.

well, the topic is going out of hand, i think new leadership , cant be grown in a matter of time, & for the time bieng we had , to see PML(n) MQM(a), PPPP(z) , the cleverst thing to do is , to push them for the good, i guss MQM was unlucky & was projected wrongly , because even in SIND , waderashahi is affraid of them.
i guss, there is no harm to support MQM for the last time, if they can do good , every body willbe in thier cornner, if they wrong , they will lose , whatever they have ?

 

[Bane Blade]

You do also forget that it was the ISI that helped grow all the terrorist organizations that are hurting us today how do you feel that they are our line of defense?

 

[batmannow]

You do also forget that it was the ISI that helped grow all the terrorist organizations that are hurting us today how do you feel that they are our line of defense?

& who helped ISI? CIA!
& who brought SOVEIT RUSSIA down?, who the hell tht , russia was after that time? USA or PAKISTAN!
THEY are , & they will, plz stop defaming of ISI.
I THINK, it would be better, for you sir !

 

[All-Green]

You do also forget that it was the ISI that helped grow all the terrorist organizations that are hurting us today how do you feel that they are our line of defense?

Brother do you know how many ISI members we lost to make Pakistan strong?
You cannot know because it is classified but yet i will tell you one thing...the many special assets we have today on the basis of which we can keep a monstrous neighbor at bay is not something a certain doctor conjured out of the air...it was all a very well planned and dangerous operation and you should guess that the human lives lost were in no way insignificant.

Regarding the Afghan Jihad and our support, this country was only one not to recognize us...tried to instigate rebellion in tribal areas and even tried to invade (sort of) the tribal areas before the 80's...we really wanted to have stability instead of the backstabbing Afghan regime so we supported the Mujahidden...at that time they were freedom fighters and not suicide bombers....what happened later on is not something anyone could foresee

This strategic depth is a nonsense theory...we only wanted a friendly border and so supported those Afghans who live at the Pak Afghan border and when they became extremely popular and had already reached Kabul we recognized them as well to have good relations...
What reason did we have to support the warlords?

Anyways, i will take this thread ofcourse so lets stop here.
You can PM me and we can discuss later sometime...

All the best and do cheer up...

In the darkest of times there is at least one ray of hope in the form of a realization ...
We cannot sink any lower ... so we can only go up...

 

[Bane Blade]

Last point on this to clear the air, I have nothing against ISI and I feel that they have protected our country however them being involved in politics spoils the purpose of democracy and the sir Batmannow says that it is democrazy but that is because the ISI gets too involved which is simply very wrong.