All Opinions on current political crisis here - please don't be a SHODA and make 1-5 line threads for attention

[American Pakistani]

Ik must come back with 200 250 seats in next elections. Awaam must make this successful.

 

[Jungibaaz]

What the deputy speaker did was arguably in contradiction with the letter and spirit of the constitution. But so was the horse trading in Sindh House. Opposition also tried to underplay the severity of the allegations of foreign intervention. No side can claim a higher moral ground in the ongoing political circus.

As far as the courts are concerned, they are presented with a "Fait Accompli" which will be very difficult for them to reverse, esp. when they run the risk of opening a whole new Pandora's box.

Agree, it's a tough spot to them. But arguably, if they let this constitutional violation slide, they'll do damage that might take decades to repair. Then any government will be able to dismiss any vote of no confidence against them, or for any reason they wish to preserve their power. It's too dangerous of a precedence to let it slide, the constitution is either supreme or it's not worth the paper it's written on, ergo the SC judges are also therefore not only undermined, but completely unnecessary. And let's not forget, the PM is still in his seat, as is the president. If one unconstitutional act is allowed, what might come next?

 

[Knockingdoors]

Agree, it's a tough spot to them. But arguably, if they let this constitutional violation slide, they'll do damage that might take decades to repair. Then any government will be able to dismiss any vote of no confidence against them, or for any reason they wish to preserve their power. It's too dangerous of a precedence to let it slide, the constitution is either supreme or it's not worth the paper it's written on, ergo the SC judges are also therefore not only undermined, but completely unnecessary. And let's not forget, the PM is still in his seat, as is the president. If one unconstitutional act is allowed, what might come next?

It is not the constitution in question but they have breached article 5 blatantly which is extremely serious allegations which is basically treason against the state, ethablishment, Pak army, police forces and all the 242mil Pakistanis including overseas Pakistanis

 

[Jungibaaz]

It is not the constitution in question but they have breached article 5 blatantly which is extremely serious allegations

How though? Is there a court case? Has there been a court ordered investigation linked to that case? Was there any convictions on the basis of which that article was employed?

CJP Bandial said pretty clearly today that the deputy speaker's use of article 5 was not linked to any ongoing or submitted case, let alone on the basis of any ruling or conviction.

 

[Knockingdoors]

How though? Is there a court case? Has there been a court ordered investigation linked to that case? Was there any convictions on the basis of which that article was employed?

CJP Bandial said pretty clearly today that the deputy speaker's use of article 5 was not linked to any ongoing or submitted case, let alone on the basis of any ruling or conviction.

All of that will begin to rule in patches which means the court cases against invididuals on state treason will come and is pending that much is certain

 

[Jungibaaz]

All of that will begin to rule in patches which means the court cases against invididuals on state treason will come and is pending that much is certain

That may be the case, but as of today, the acts of the deputy speaker on behalf of the government were unconstitutional. These things can't be employed based on pre-emptive guesswork and extremely flimsy application of Art. 5.

 

[Knockingdoors]

That may be the case, but as of today, the acts of the deputy speaker on behalf of the government were unconstitutional. These things can't be employed based on pre-emptive guesswork and extremely flimsy application of Art. 5.

There was no filmsy guesswork but clear evidence of conspiracy which was proved to NSC before the NA speaker triggered article 5 and technically was days before the hearing

 

[M. Sarmad]

Agree, it's a tough spot to them. But arguably, if they let this constitutional violation slide, they'll do damage that might take decades to repair. Then any government will be able to dismiss any vote of no confidence against them, or for any reason they wish to preserve their power. It's too dangerous of a precedence to let it slide, the constitution is either supreme or it's not worth the paper it's written on, ergo the SC judges are also therefore not only undermined, but completely unnecessary. And let's not forget, the PM is still in his seat, as is the president. If one unconstitutional act is allowed, what might come next?

Yes, you are right insofar as you say that if the courts let this violation slide then it will effectively close the doors of NCV for good.
... But the courts interfering in matters that are generally believed to be beyond courts' jurisdiction will be highly detrimental for the "separation of powers" doctrine in the longer run. No matter what the courts decide, the precedent set will have some far reaching consequences

 

[Dil_Pakistan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1510603754420191241

 

[Jungibaaz]

Yes, you are right insofar as you say that if the courts let this violation slide then it will effectively close the doors of NCV for good.
... But the courts interfering in matters that are generally believed to be beyond courts' jurisdiction will be highly detrimental for the "separation of powers" doctrine in the longer run. No matter what the courts decide, the precedent set will have some far reaching consequences

IMO that separation of powers, though important, usually sets some limits. Otherwise what stops President, PM, parliamentarians etc, from violating the constitution, right?

I had a quick chat with other members on this subject earlier today. Article 69 is there to promote the independence of parliament, but that independence is "subject to the constitution" as per preceding Article 67, and of course that independence can't supersede the constitution or provide immunity to members of parliament. So this is why CJP and today's three member bench basically said that they have jurisdiction here. In the recent weeks, I can't remember what the matter was brought before them relating to the speaker, but they declined to do anything citing parliamentary independence. Whereas today, they said they do have jurisdiction.

What would have been nice is a stay order on today's moves, but it's like you said. It's a tough spot for them, and I don't think they'll want to make any decision unless it's firm and provides a way forward.

 

[Trango Towers]

All said and done.
The Lotas, the sell outs, the culprits, the schemers, Dallals and their Whores and the enemies of the State stand exposed.
What punishment will be given to them and who will give this punishment.
Realistically, all those guilty should be tried for treason and punished accordingly even if it means some of them swinging from the ropes.
This VNC event also exposed our hand in glove judiciary that a murderer from Dubai and a jail serving traitor can walk into the Parliament to vote in favour of their handlers. Can we expect this Justice system be expected to deliver.
Basically all those who sold their souls for Dollars are likely to walk free and contest the next elections. Be it the Mob justice or otherwise, until some of these mother sellers are not made an example, sooner or later, they or their left overs would be ruling over us again. Asian Spring may have arrived in our part of the world but unless some blood gets spilled the Spring will never blossom.

Only way is to take the law into your own hands and a small secretive group takes action and starts to take these people out

Ik must come back with 200 250 seats in next elections. Awaam must make this successful.

Awaam are dumb and asleep

 

[Clutch]

We've tried dictatorships and didn't get JACK SHIT out of them. Generals with limited visions who became politicians quicker than the people they were supposed to replace.

We don't need mil dictatorship or pathetic parliamentary democracy. The only model that really delivers rapid progress is the China Model. It's right in front of us, yet it has never penetrated our intellectual discourse or political system. And for good reason --- it is a ruthless civilian-led meritocracy with a diminished role for the judiciary and a subservient military. This is bad news for politicians, generals, and judges --- so, conveniently, we keep oscillating between two useless systems.

My 2c.

I actually agree with you. (1

 

[R2D2]

Government should immediately arrest the conspirators working for foreign interests to overthrow the elected government so that they are prevented from spreading disorder and further mischief.

 

[Azadkashmir]

make list of all traitors, their assets, bank accounts, their addresses, who they associated with (cia, raw etc)

 

[R2D2]

We've tried dictatorships and didn't get JACK SHIT out of them. Generals with limited visions who became politicians quicker than the people they were supposed to replace.

We don't need mil dictatorship or pathetic parliamentary democracy. The only model that really delivers rapid progress is the China Model. It's right in front of us, yet it has never penetrated our intellectual discourse or political system. And for good reason --- it is a ruthless civilian-led meritocracy with a diminished role for the judiciary and a subservient military. This is bad news for politicians, generals, and judges --- so, conveniently, we keep oscillating between two useless systems.

My 2c.

We should try Islamic Presidential system in Pakistan. That would be close to China model and close to our traditions.