Alienating India

[Icarus]

Kakgeta I invite you to read what I have written again. It is unacceptable to every religion for a member to leave. Even more unacceptable if the member is made to leave. If you expect your bride to accept your religion by forsaking her own, why the double standards in disowning your own daughter from accepting that of her husband's? Is the playing field suddenly different? Also please remember that like us Hindus, and unlike Muslims and Christians, you are born a Parsi. You cannot become one. Just a small correction. I hope you see my point now my friend.

Muslims consider it something like their duty to invite others to islam, and so it was offered to M.A.Jinnah's wife, and she accepted it, she was not forced to accept it. And he was not that harsh with his daughter, all he did was to ask her not to address him as her father anymore.................

 

[harish]

Muslims consider it something like their duty to invite others to islam, and so it was offered to M.A.Jinnah's wife, and she accepted it, she was not forced to accept it. And he was not that harsh with his daughter, all he did was to ask her not to address him as her father anymore.................

I think we are digressing but in continuation of your post I must remind you that Rati was a kid (16) when she married Jinnah. And a kid madly in love. Add to that the fact that you cannot get married to a muslim, unless you convert. What were her 'choices' Kakgeta? An 'offer' she could not refuse? Also it would be over simplification to assume that the rift between Jinnah and his daughter was based on religion only. It was more to do with her rebuff of what her father created, choosing to remain Indian instead along with her husband. That was what really irked the great man. Just as what irks 1 billion Indians is not who Sania is marrying, but which nationality she will now be forced to accept. In continuance of Niaz's post, and Ruby's reply, a classic combination of sexism and nationalism rolled into one, one unable to be divorced from the other (pun intended of course!).

 

[rubyjackass]

All these common Indians take Sania as their household girl and are trying to impose their wish on her the same way Quaid did. Sania is lucky to have these people who are more than fans. They will over time be cool with her dont worry.

@Kakgeta: As a parallel, what are these 'angry Indians' saying after all Dont call yourself an Indian, at the most.


In case people here are blind to it, all the Indian media and the local Telugu and Urdu media supported Sania's decision. Unless If are a reader of Sivsenas Samna and want to call it media.


@Omar Remember that Pakistanis about that they are Muslims first and Indians that they are Indians?

Using that axiom this is a perfect parallel to Quaids case.


Now tell me which part of their reaction is abnormal and a 'clear' indication of their 'inherent hatred' for Pakistan? Niaz sir?

@graphican: That is the point dude. Call what you have as Pakistan. How about calling LoC as IB?

 

[Omar1984]

@Omar Remember that Pakistanis bi*ch about that they are Muslims first and Indians that they are Indians?

All Muslims know that they are Muslims first. When we die and enter our grave the first question that will be asked is our religion. not our ethnicity or race. Every Muslim knows this, even Indian Muslims.

Its just that Indian Muslims always have to prove their loyalty to india because they are under a cloud of suspicion since 1947.

Using that axiom this is a perfect parallel to Quaids case

If Quaid-e-Azam's daughter married a Muslim (even a south indian Muslim who chose to live in India) then Quaid-e-Azam wouldn't have been upset.

You hindus dont understand Muslims and Islam thats the problem with you hindus.

A Muslim can not marry a hindu, sikh, athiest, buddhist, or a parsi. It is against our Religion. A Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man. Thats why its no big deal if a Muslim woman married a person of different ethnicity as long as he is Muslim, but a Muslim woman can not marry a non-mulsim man even if they are the same ethnicity. This is what our Religion teaches.

 

[Icarus]

I think we are digressing but in continuation of your post I must remind you that Rati was a kid (16) when she married Jinnah. And a kid madly in love. Add to that the fact that you cannot get married to a muslim, unless you convert. What were her 'choices' Kakgeta? An 'offer' she could not refuse? Also it would be over simplification to assume that the rift between Jinnah and his daughter was based on religion only. It was more to do with her rebuff of what her father created, choosing to remain Indian instead along with her husband. That was what really irked the great man. Just as what irks 1 billion Indians is not who Sania is marrying, but which nationality she will now be forced to accept. In continuance of Niaz's post, and Ruby's reply, a classic combination of sexism and nationalism rolled into one, one unable to be divorced from the other (pun intended of course!).

That point that you cannot marry a muslim without converting to Islam is incorrect, a muslim can marry a non-muslim however it is better that the muslim offer Islam to his/her spouse. Even that is not necessary when Christians and Jews are in question since they are considered "people of the book".
And the rift between the Quaid and his daughter was basically due to her decision to disregard his advice. And I think it is being over-inflated, they were not that angry at each other, like I said before he just INFORMALLY declined to be her Father, keep in mind that he did not follow legal procedures to exclude her from the family.
As for Sania and Shoaib, I wish them the best with their married life and I see nothing that could sabotage their marriage, Sania will continue playing for India and Shoaib for Pakistan........they will live in Dubai and people of Pakistan are not that scary as they are projected in India, they are just people surprisingly similar to yourself, after all we share the same gene pool for Thousands of years......Ask some of the journalists who visit Pakistan often, we aren't that bad, no one will force Sania into becoming a Pakistani.............nor will she be forced to play for Pakistan..................Infact it would create alot of controversy if she played for Pakistan in mini-skirts.

 

[Icarus]

@Kakgeta: As a parallel, what are these 'angry Indians' saying after all Dont call yourself an Indian, at the most.

Huh ???? Could you please spell it out for me, I don't get what you mean.

@Omar Remember that Pakistanis bi*ch about that they are Muslims first and Indians that they are Indians?

That is quite rude and is fit to be considered a flame................

 

[Icarus]

A Muslim can not marry a hindu, sikh, athiest, buddhist, or a parsi. It is against our Religion. A Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man. Thats why its no big deal if a Muslim woman married a person of different ethnicity as long as he is Muslim, but a Muslim woman can not marry a non-mulsim man even if they are the same ethnicity. This is what our Religion teaches.

I disagree with that, it's our culture that forbids marriage with non-muslims not the religion, they may marry non-muslims BUT must continue practising their own faith...........the children should also be muslims..............
It is PREFERRED that the person marry a muslim.............
Offering Islam to the spouse is compulsory though.
An example is the wife of Hazrat Muhhamad (P.B.U.H) Hazrat Mariam (R.A), she accepted Islam after the Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H) had offered to marry her...........at the time of proposal she was a non-muslim....................

 

[Omar1984]

I disagree with that, it's our culture that forbids marriage with non-muslims not the religion, they may marry non-muslims BUT must continue practising their own faith...........the children should also be muslims..............
It is PREFERRED that the person marry a muslim.............
Offering Islam to the spouse is compulsory though.

Muslim women can only marry a Muslim man, but a Muslim man can marry with People of the Book (Christians and Jews).

This is what Muslims believe. It is in the Quran.

 

[Hutchroy]

Incorrect, who told you this, might I ask, have you ever even SEEN a Pakistani school text book ? Then of course you read it so you must be incredibly fluent in Urdu ??????

One does not have to know Urdu to find out about the Pakistani School Curricula.

The Pakistani Intelligentsia is in the fore-front of highlighting the "Problem" of Hatred created by the Pakistani School Curricula.

Read the following full report of 154 Pages - the URL Link is in the Title - you shall be enlightened!

The Subtle Subversion


The State of

Curricula and Textbooks

in Pakistan

Urdu, English, Social Studies and Civics

Editors: A. H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim


SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT POLICY INSTITUTE


Report of the project

“A Civil Society Initiative in Curricula and Textbooks Reform”

A project of the

Sustainable Development Policy Institute
#3, UN Boulevard, Diplomatic Enclave I, Islamabad​

The answers to the rest of your Post can be found by "Googling" for :

1. Ministry of Education - I & II - Dr Farrukh Saleem

2. Curriculum of hate - Dr Farrukh Saleem

3. ‘Distorted history is breeding hatred’ - Zakir Hassnain

Also try with

4. Pakistan School Curricula

5. Hatred taught in Pakistan's Schools

6. Jihad taught in Pakistan's Schools.

There is nothing wrong (nor there ever was) with Pakistan or Pakistanis. The problem is with the various Leaderships.

 

[Icarus]

One does not have to know Urdu to find out about the Pakistani School Curricula.

The Pakistani Intelligentsia is in the fore-front of highlighting the "Problem" of Hatred created by the Pakistani School Curricula.

Read the following full report of 154 Pages - the URL Link is in the Title - you shall be enlightened!

The Subtle Subversion


The State of

Curricula and Textbooks

in Pakistan

Urdu, English, Social Studies and Civics

Editors: A. H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim


SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT POLICY INSTITUTE


Report of the project

“A Civil Society Initiative in Curricula and Textbooks Reform”

A project of the

Sustainable Development Policy Institute
#3, UN Boulevard, Diplomatic Enclave I, Islamabad​

The answers to the rest of your Post can be found by "Googling" for :

1. Ministry of Education - I & II - Dr Farrukh Saleem

2. Curriculum of hate - Dr Farrukh Saleem

3. ‘Distorted history is breeding hatred’ - Zakir Hassnain

Also try with

4. Pakistan School Curricula

5. Hatred taught in Pakistan's Schools

6. Jihad taught in Pakistan's Schools.

There is nothing wrong (nor there ever was) with Pakistan or Pakistanis. The problem is with the various Leaderships.

Have you seen my signature ? I copied it from one of my younger sister's text books, please tell me how it encourages hatred and violence among people or teaches us to belittle non-muslims.
Pakistan has about 10 million non-muslims, other than afew isolated incidents, you will not be able to find any instances of violence against minority, would we co-exist peacefully if we were taught to hate from our childhood ?
These articles you quoted only show one side of the picture, you cannot balance an argument by quoting only one side.
As for Jihad being taught in schools, it is a fundamental of Islam and should be taught, however contrary to popular belief Jihad does not mean "Holy War" instead it is an Arabic word meaning "To Strive".
Right now, I am trying to clear misconceptions about my country, this means I am on a Jihad as I am striving to clear those misconceptions and I don't see any reason for the CIA to jump me.
A type of Jihad refers to fighting, it is called Qataal and regarding it, there are many surrahs laying down principles strict for Qataal, one of them being:
"Fight those, who fight you but do not transgress limits"
Another States:
"Oh you who believe do not harm places of worship and do not molest the monks, do not damage trees upon which there is food for man and beast"

 

[ramu]

Im all for any economic block but see the bases of K isnt just our fixation but the very own foundation
Allama Muhhamad Iqbal who gave the ideology of Pakistan himself was a kashmiri.
India should move away from K fixation for the sake of humanity and let the kashmiri people decide wat they want.Then maybe we can even co operate in defence as well as other fields and become something like US,UK.

Pak Nat, Good to know that economic block is welcome but I hate the ''but'' which I kind of expected.

Allama Muhhamad Iqbal who gave the ideology of Pakistan being a Kashmiri does not make it any different dude.

India and Pakistan should forget about Kashmir for the next 4 decades atleast and work on developing and mending the mess around. Any logic of mine or yours that changes the status quo will be met with a lot of resistance.

India can do everything under the Sun but Pakistan will never let go Kashmir. Even if P0K is taken over, peace will elude India.

Even if Pakistan becomes the most modern country in all respects and puts a zillion tons of pressure on India to vacate Kashmir, it will not happen. Even if by force Pakistan does the impossible, the rest of Pakistan will be disturbed by India.

Each country is neck deep in propaganda politics and the truth is not what meets the eye. Irrespective of what each country tries, the status quo + or - few sq miles is the truth.

We may fight till eternity but the smart thing to do is to team up and defend against the common enemy of poverty, illiteracy, lawlessness and primary health care. The two countries can achieve a lot more together than actively designing plans to bring down the other.

 

[ramu]

I have many Indian friends in UK (my neighbor is a Sikh) as well as Indian colleagues. I am proud that I have very little prejudices regarding religion, ethnicity or language and I have never let any of these differences affect my dealings with other nationalities.

I was of the impression that majority of middle class Indians also thought like me and that religious/ national bias was the limited to RSS & Shiv Sena stalwarts.

However, comments of the ordinary Indians that I heard regarding the marriage of Sania Mirza and Shoab Malik astounded me. I hear spice radio a lot because I like listening to songs while driving. Yesterday, as I was driving back from Dubai (about two hours) Radio spice had a phone in about this event.

Oh boy was I taken aback. Majority of Indians living in Dubai (80% of them are Keralites) were spitting poison. Comments like “are there no Indian boys left that Sania had to chose a Pakistani?” and “Sania is not really an Indian, she was always partial to Pakistan” were what many callers said. The RJ (an Indian Muslim) always asked who was on the phone and what they did. A lot them were educated middle class people such as sales mangers, bankers, real estate agents etc.

These comments were about a girl who has received highest awards from GOI for services to India and has created a very good image of India thru her tennis. All this was forgotten and even her patriotism questioned just because she is marrying a Pakistani. Also look at Indian media; they are trying their level best to stop this marriage.

It matters very little to me whether this marriage takes place or not, but don’t the media and Pakistan haters realize that in youth, there is such thing as love? Would they have done the same thing if Sania were to marry a European or an Arab? IMO certainly not.

One never stops learning, and at the ripe old age of 65 I have come to realize that I was wrong. It is not the “K’ word. A very large section of Indian Joe Public harbors a deep hatred toward Pakistan and Pakistanis. I don’t mean BJP supporters or Hinduvta followers only. This hatred, with few exceptions runs right across the society. SAARC or not, don’t think India & Pakistan are likely to be chums for a very long time.

niaz, salam sirji.

Sirji, the marriage of Sania and Shoab is a big controversy given the baggage of Shoab. I do not want to comment on the developments and I have no interest in what Sania or Shoab do in their personal lives.

About Indian media, please check the Pakistan media aswell. Each of them is trying to earn brownie points and TRP is all they want. If embarrassing stars or their families gives good TRP, they jump.

About you question about marrying an Arab / someone else, I should admit that the reaction may not have been so judgmental. Just as Pakistan is fed on anti- India so is the Indian audience.

It is not the “K’ word. A very large section of Indian Joe Public harbors a deep hatred toward Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Yes. You are right.

I don’t mean BJP supporters or Hinduvta followers only. This hatred, with few exceptions runs right across the society. SAARC or not, don’t think India & Pakistan are likely to be chums for a very long time.

Not possible to generalize to such an extent but I agree to a large degree.

Indians hate 26/11. Indians hate violence and terrorism and that is natural. Without the mask of being a neutral, elitist but as a common man who is a citizen of India, I will ask you (niaz) some advice.

The propaganda machine in both Pakistan and India is no different and every other problem in each country is the handiwork of the other. be it water, electricity or terrorism. Each country hides the truth from its citizens be it the freedom movement, role of Gandhi or role of Jinnah. Many people who are worshiped across the border and demonized on the other side.

The history text books on both countries do not do justice to our combined history. Boys from Pakistan equate Mogul rule to Pakistan ruling India. And India equate Mohmd. Ghazni to Pakistan attacking India several times and stealing their wealth. If someone wants to know, how I know about the history text books, search online and you will get the translations.

I am a middle class Indian who has more respect for the common man on Indian/Pakistan street who is battling terrorists than for the Politicians who use divisive politics to score brownie points with their vote base.

Each of us know that India and Pakistan can achieve a lot together and that will start from a few confidence building measures. India has a lot of moderates and trust me, the extravagant, c0cky stud from Kerala on the phone talking about Pakistan has nothing to do with the common man in India.

Thanks for replying to my post.

 

[Hutchroy]

Have you seen my signature ? I copied it from one of my younger sister's text books, please tell me how it encourages hatred and violence among people or teaches us to belittle non-muslims.
Pakistan has about 10 million non-muslims, other than afew isolated incidents, you will not be able to find any instances of violence against minority, would we co-exist peacefully if we were taught to hate from our childhood ?
These articles you quoted only show one side of the picture, you cannot balance an argument by quoting only one side.
As for Jihad being taught in schools, it is a fundamental of Islam and should be taught, however contrary to popular belief Jihad does not mean "Holy War" instead it is an Arabic word meaning "To Strive".
Right now, I am trying to clear misconceptions about my country, this means I am on a Jihad as I am striving to clear those misconceptions and I don't see any reason for the CIA to jump me.
A type of Jihad refers to fighting, it is called Qataal and regarding it, there are many surrahs laying down principles strict for Qataal, one of them being:
"Fight those, who fight you but do not transgress limits"
Another States:
"Oh you who believe do not harm places of worship and do not molest the monks, do not damage trees upon which there is food for man and beast"

I leave it to your intelligence quotient of getting your signature from one of your younger sister’s book and then quoting it against a 154 Page Document by the World Reputed Sustainable Development Institute of Pakistan with luminaries of the Stature of A H Nayyer and Ahmad Salim on its Board of Directors-Consultants.

May be even at this late stage you will read the full 154 Page Document and then comment on the subject being discussed.

Please note that the various Articles I have quoted are discussing the contents of the relevant 154 Page SDPI Report.

I trust Niaz Sir will in due course of time – at his own convenience – carry the dialogue further with me.

As regards Pakistan having 10 Million Non-Muslim I must doubt your Intelligence as Paksitan with a Population of about 180 Million has a Population content of 97% Muslims. This Percentage does not include Ahmedias.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Pak Nat, Good to know that economic block is welcome but I hate the ''but'' which I kind of expected.

Allama Muhhamad Iqbal who gave the ideology of Pakistan being a Kashmiri does not make it any different dude.

India and Pakistan should forget about Kashmir for the next 4 decades atleast and work on developing and mending the mess around. Any logic of mine or yours that changes the status quo will be met with a lot of resistance.

India can do everything under the Sun but Pakistan will never let go Kashmir. Even if P0K is taken over, peace will elude India.

Even if Pakistan becomes the most modern country in all respects and puts a zillion tons of pressure on India to vacate Kashmir, it will not happen. Even if by force Pakistan does the impossible, the rest of Pakistan will be disturbed by India.
Each country is neck deep in propaganda politics and the truth is not what meets the eye. Irrespective of what each country tries, the status quo + or - few sq miles is the truth.

We may fight till eternity but the smart thing to do is to team up and defend against the common enemy of poverty, illiteracy, lawlessness and primary health care. The two countries can achieve a lot more together than actively designing plans to bring down the other.

Brother remember 47?
This same Pakistan took azad kashmir by FORCE and india ran to UN.
Anyways we dont want kashmir give them a right to decide not us....
Allama iqbals being a kashmiri make a large difference/
And sir Kashmir will be given freedom if not in a decade then in another one.BUT its freedom will be granted.
Anyways lets not discuss kahmir in this thread.
Good day.

 

[desiman]

Brother remember 47?
This same Pakistan took azad kashmir by FORCE and india ran to UN.
Anyways we dont want kashmir give them a right to decide not us....
Allama iqbals being a kashmiri make a large difference/
And sir Kashmir will be given freedom if not in a decade then in another one.BUT its freedom will be granted.
Anyways lets not discuss kahmir in this thread.
Good day.

Read the history again brother, you version of history is totally wrong.