What's new

Al-Qaeda warns India of new attacks

As if on cue, the 'good taliban', doing their good deed of the day:

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Deadly attacks hit Afghan capital

Mr Holbrooke is expected in Kabul later this week, after his visit to Pakistan.

Before he left for the region, he said Afghanistan would be "much tougher" to solve than Iraq and that he had "never seen anything like the mess we have inherited".


I totally agreed with him " Pushtoons are very good friends and very bad enemy as well like Arabs":woot::lol:
 
.
This is a strawman argument - at no point did I refer to the LeT as 'legitimate' (any more) nor did I suggest anythign about 'protecting' the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks, so please do not distort my comments.

Agnostic_M, my actual comment was:

GoP is protecting murderers by citing Kashmir.

...or are you suggesting that you and the GoP are now synonymous...? :)


Please read Ahmed Rashid's Taliban and Steve Coll's Ghost War's to get

...Since you bring up Rashid, I'd commend you to his latest book 'Descent Into Chaos' (2008), in which he states that Pakistan (specifically ISI/PA) should start behaving like a good neighbor and stop meddling in other countries affairs. I believe it's in the 'Conclusion' section of the book. Happy reading!


- And lastly, why are people in denial about the negative image of Pakistan? Even accounting for some media bias, Indian propaganda etc. isn't it true that Pakistan itself is largely responsible for this? I would be very interested to hear your views on Dr A Q Khan. The head honcho of the Pakistani nuclear establishment sets up shop, and no charges are pressed. And then you claim Western media bias in the negative image of Pakistan!
 
Last edited:
.
As if on cue, the 'good taliban', doing their good deed of the day:

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Deadly attacks hit Afghan capital

They attacked government buildings. Some people don't like the current government in Afghanistan (many people don't actually which is why Karzai has no control).

Is it possible that they see a foreign hand running Afghanistan, and they don't like it?

The insurgency in Afghanistan is predominantly Afghani. Their weapons are nothing more than the AK-47s, RPGs which they build themselves, and the Stingers which you supplied them in the 80s.

The rest is home made bombs for IEDs. It's very simply if you think about it.

ISI's best course of action is to support the US if it can stabilize Afghanistan, but at the same time to not upset the Taliban too much, in case the US leave tomorrow.

Very very simple, requires the ability to think in order to assimilate however.
 
.
ISI's best course of action is to support the US if it can stabilize Afghanistan, but at the same time to not upset the Taliban too much, in case the US leave tomorrow.

Very very simple, requires the ability to think in order to assimilate however.

At the same time?

How can one manage to do two things that are completely contradictory to each other?:what:

If you are not going to upset Taliban then how will you help the U.S. stabilize Afghanistan?

If you are going to help the US then you MUST upset Taliban.

There are no two ways about doing this.

And lets face the reality here-
The US has to win this war no matter what happens.
This is not a war you can just pull out tomorrow.The consequences of pulling out tomorrow would be terrible for everybody.
Things will be back to square one in Afghanistan-the Taliban,havens for Al-Qaeda,poverty and no nation as such to speak of.

The stakes are very high for the US and for much of the West in Afghanistan and if they withdraw there can be a direct threat to their homeland.

It is a battle of wills,who will outlast whom and who will be able to win the hearts of average Afghan.

ISI is playing a dangerous game here,if it loses Pakistan will cease to exist.
 
.
Nothing written by you of which Holbrooke et al aren't aware. You've seemingly reconciled yourself nicely to proxy wars on two fronts. Comfortably even.

Must be a remarkable savings in uniforms.

Your comments make clear the following-

1.) We absolutely, despite additional routes, need your supply corridors. If not, given that it's almost certainly clear to the President on down that you're double dealing, we'd likely do all we could to isolate you.

Ahmad Pasha's cryptic defense of free speech for the boys in Quetta to Der Spiegel now seems patently clear in retrospect. So too the rumors of Hekmatyar and Haqqani.

They, if your assertions are correct (and I absolutely believe them to be true), are the actions of an enemy to the UN's Afghanistan mission in virtually every respect. Which brings me to-
Quit dissembling and distorting S-2. My comments indicate nothing of the sort - your comments here are are the expression of your desire to shift US/NATO failures onto Pakistan that continuously results in these fantastic conspiracy theories of 'ISI in cahoots with Taliban' that you guys have taken to heart.

And then you get after the Pakistanis for 'believing in conspiracies'.

The US/NATO on the other hand, using your logic, have clearly indicated that they are an enemy to Pakistan's mission against terrorism by doing close to nothing to stop the poppy crop and the drug and weapons trade, that is now responsible for supplying the militants murdering Pakistani women. children and men, civilians and soldiers, with weapons and resources.

It is ludicrous to thin that given the ISI DG made those comments, the higher level US military and civilian leadership is not aware of the restricted arrangements with the 'Quetta Shura' - your guys know this and have a tacit arrangement with Pakistan on this count. It works becasue, as I pointed out elsewhere, the Shura, if prevented from actively training and recruiting, have very little tangible benefit they can provide the insurgency, which remains localized in the hands of local Tribal commanders, in Afghanistan and FATA, and funded by the Drug trade.

As such the Quetta Shura has an insignificant impact on the insurgency, which is why the US has not been chomping at the bit to get them taken out, so far. Whether this tacit arrangement with Pakistan changes under the Obama adminsitration we shall have to see.

On the 'two proxy wars bit' - a sheer lie there. The proxy war in Afghanistan ended with the US invasion, and the active proxy war in Kashmir ended after 2002 - there is a reason why the LoC has been largely silent, the ceasefire has held, and cross border infiltration is negligible. We are giving the Indians every chance to arrive at a peaceful resolution of the dispute by tamping down on the militancy, and Musharraf came out with proposals on the issue that were a radical enough departure from Pakistan's traditional stance on Kashmir for him to be called a 'sell out and traitor'.

As with my advice to Zhero, save some of your pretentious indignation for the real criminals and 'abrogators of Kashmiri rights', the Indians. Throw some of your pretentious lectures on 'respect for the UNSC resolutions, agreements and human freedom and rights' there war as well, unless you have no shame in continuing to act as hypocrites.

2.) Drugs are a distractor which you've conveniently played to score points here at def.pk. Nothing more. How could it be when opium is so critical to the sustenance of your "good" taliban? Likely, the ISI is knee-deep here as well which nicely segues to-
If the attitude at the higher level civilian and military leadership is the same as what you have expressed here, no wonder you are failing in Afghanistan and blaming Pakistan. You cannot kill every insurgent, and at the same time if you do nothing to stop the weapons and money supplies, funded by the drug trade, you are doing absolutely nothing.

Your disingenuous dismissal of the drug trade only points to the fact that you seek to remove any responsibility for the current deteriorating situation from the shoulders of the US. The poppy is grown in Afghanistan, not Pakistan, so the argument of the 'ISI being neck deep' (without any evidence again) is nothing but a canard and 'distraction'. Pakistan or the ISI do not control that crop, the US/NATO does, and the responsibility for that crop supplying the Taliban with resources is yours.

“I am just looking for a good customer,” he said. “It isn’t important to us who it is. Most of the Taleban are good customers, but we also take these guns further into Pakistan, to the Landi Kotal market, where we sell them to international arms smugglers.”

From Landi Kotal – located high in the Khyber Pass – the weapons make their way to radical groups all over the world, Mir Alam said, explaining, “Landi Kotal is one of the largest arms markets in the region. The mujaheddin and al-Qaeda purchase weapons for Palestine, Kashmir and other battle fronts.”

Turning Afghan Heroin Into Kalashnikovs

And the list of analysis such as this pointing to the Northern Afghan drug and weapons trade corridor is expansive - deal with it instead of creating ISI bogeymen.

3.) Your army is in charge, no if's, and's, or but's. Your civilian government is a facade designed to reassure the U.S. that you're on the "path" to democracy and thus worthy of aid.

I'll give it to your military leadership. Their cajones are world-class. Nobody double-downs on a pair of deuces like you guys.

Gonna lose your house if you play this hand wrong.
The Military's relationship with the 'good Taliban' is limited to what I described - we are not actively supporting them - no weapons, no intel no facilitation in cross border crossings - nothing. We maintain contacts, and the Shura lives in Quetta, likely with full US knowledge - The Taliban leaders talking to the Saudis and Afghan Government leaders did not fly out to Saudi Arabia from a cave in Kandahar you know.:)

Success in Afghanistan and FATA against the Taliban will likely reduce the utility of these individuals, and possibly make them more amenable to dialog and power sharing. If they remain obstructionists in that scenario, then they will be cast out.
 
.
ISI's best course of action is to support the US if it can stabilize Afghanistan, but at the same time to not upset the Taliban too much, in case the US leave tomorrow.

the next time Pakistan get p'd o at America for questioning Pakistan's commitment to the War on Terror and decides to rain Hellfires over NWFP killing 6-year old girls in its path without informing Pakistan, it would do you well to remember Pakistan's stand wrt Taliban

and you blame the world for questioning Pakistan's commitment to eradicating the Taliban/Al-Qaeda menace and complain when America witholds payments and attaches payment to results obtained
 
.
Agnostic_M, my actual comment was:

...or are you suggesting that you and the GoP are now synonymous...? :)
Point out where the GoP has said anything about not prosecuting the perpetrators, by citing Kashmir, or stop lying and distorting.

You have chosen not to answer a single point related to your hypocritical arguments and distortions, now going off on a different tangent. I think your intent to obfuscate and distort on this forum is clear.

...Since you bring up Rashid, I'd commend you to his latest book 'Descent Into Chaos' (2008), in which he states that Pakistan (specifically ISI/PA) should start behaving like a good neighbor and stop meddling in other countries affairs. I believe it's in the 'Conclusion' section of the book. Happy reading!
Thank you - read it a while back, and I disagree with his conclusions in terms of the current scenario, though they were accurate in the aftermath of the Soviet withdrawal. However, even there, I have pointed out how the situation in Afghanistan was horrible and why Pakistan chose to get involved. It is not , as you disingenuously claimed, a case of wanting a 'Taliban Afghanistan'.

Pakistan's problems in controlling the Taliban in FATA have more to do with domestic opposition to the war, political pressures, differences within the Army on how to deal with the Pakistani insurgency and limited resources that can be deployed given the threat on the Eastern theater.

- And lastly, why are people in denial about the negative image of Pakistan? Even accounting for some media bias, Indian propaganda etc. isn't it true that Pakistan itself is largely responsible for this? I would be very interested to hear your views on Dr A Q Khan. The head honcho of the Pakistani nuclear establishment sets up shop, and no charges are pressed. And then you claim Western media bias in the negative image of Pakistan!
Given his status as the head of Pakistan's nuclear program, his involvement in most of Pakistan's strategic weapons, and especially the near idol worship and respect amongst the people he commands in Pakistan, I do not find it strange that he was put under house arrest rather than imprisoned.

Pakistan will continue to restrict his freedom of movement and contact, and keep him under oppressive security. His network in Pakistan has been dismantled - so he no longer is a threat.
 
.
I say US iskilling pakistanis..those who live in FATA are pakistani citizens.US has no right to bomb them or for that matter to do anything.And they certainly aren Al Qaeda.Al Qaeda s just a name that US has ramed to murder anyone who opposes them...They r only innocent Pashtuns defending their country and brethren
 
.
I say US iskilling pakistanis..those who live in FATA are pakistani citizens.US has no right to bomb them or for that matter to do anything.And they certainly aren Al Qaeda.Al Qaeda s just a name that US has ramed to murder anyone who opposes them...They r only innocent Pashtuns defending their country and brethren

They are only helping Taliban reorganize and are recruiting ground for extremists and U.S. will do whatever possible to avert any danger to it's soldiers.So if Pak cant do it,U.S. will irrespective of what people in Pak believe.
 
.
Pakistan should defend its citizens...The politicians in this country suck..We should march shoulder to shoulder with the brave pashtuns n kick US outta here..
 
.
I'll start here with dope. The numbers for 2008 provided by UNODC don't reflect your disdain. The trend lines are stable to down virtually everywhere except the deep south. Helmand DOMINATES the trade at this point.

America specifically has made incredible inroads in RC-East-under our direct control. Planted hectares are near nil. The worst of RC-East, Nangahar, has gone from 28,000 planted hectares in 2004 to ZERO in 2008. Even without the assistance of the Afghan government, there is a significant shift throughout much of the nation.

Afghanistan Opium Survey 2008-UNODC

It doesn't read well but is, at least, better. In some places remarkably so. Most of the nation is down dramatically. We saw massive increases of planted hectares between 2004-2007 in the west and south. Page 8 graphs the planted hectares by province since 2004. Read for yourself.

It's in Helmand where the problem is, by far, out of control. British controlled, ostensibly, and adjacent to the Baluchi routes into Quetta. South of Garmsir to the Pakistani border is completely badlands at this point. It's also the absolute heart of opium production at this point.

To that end, therefore, your comments about a Quetta shura "deal" are original. I've seen no hint elsewhere by anybody. Congratulations. Do you take full credit or is there a link to an op-ed or policy paper that suggests as much?

I can't imagine our oversight affording a deal with the men who harbored al Qaeda. Maybe but I'd need a lot more to believe so. I seem to recall some expressions of concern by Canadian or British senior military leader types about Quetta. Little wonder as they've been in a real fur-ball for two years plus. So too the Dutch.

You can't double-deal. Holding out the speculation of a "deal" seems your rationalization at this point to circumvent that position. Karzai has offered mullah Omar his personal protection (whatever that is) should he come in from the cold. Guess he prefers isolation in Quetta to participation in a political process, eh?

Doesn't make sense.

Certainly wouldn't please our Canadian or British friends. Can't imagine that it'd please the afghan people to believe that we acquiesced to their safe harbor in Quetta and put some stamp of approval upon it. I sure as hell KNOW that the U.S. Congress and American people wouldn't be a tad keen.

No. It doesn't fit. More likely, it's just you guys playing your old games of strategic space by meddling in the internal affairs of Afghanistan. I'd long hoped we were past that but your comments made clear that isn't the case. You do so this time with the direct interests of 41 other nations trying to openly assist the Afghan people as you quietly resist behind the skirts of your proxies.

That's just the Quetta shura. Care to explain the "deals" in effect for Haqqani and Hekmatyar which have been struck between America and you?
 
.
Taliban and Al-Qaeda are not the threat as long as they're blowing up themselves in Afghanistan against U.S and NATO interests, Otherwise they shall be eliminated. They're a real threat against the stability of the region.
 
.
I really dont understand this stability concept...How is US stabilizing the region..By waging war against innocents...by bombing ad killing women n children..it was more peaceful when Taliban was in power in Afghanistan..Atleast we were living in peace..Taliban is any day better than US
 
.
S-2:

On the 'Quetta Shura Deal' - no op-ed or anything, just analysis on my part based on my interpretations of events over the years. I have been thinking of this for a while now, and the ISI DG's comments, to me, made the theory more plausible. This wasn't a mere slip of tongue, and given all the reporting about the Shura over the years, I find it odd that the ISI would continue to keep the Shura based there in the hope that everyone would just ignore them and not notice.

The Bush administration has withheld enough information from the American people for lack of awareness over a tacit deal to be plausible - there will always be classified information governments just cannot share. The GoP after all still strongly denies any agreement, tacit or otherwise, over the drone strikes.

The US knows about the Shura, and only recently has there been muted talk about possibly going after them, tempered with counter arguments that they provide no tangible benefit to the insurgency.
 
Last edited:
.
It doesn't read well but is, at least, better. In some places remarkably so.

My expressed disdain is only in response to continuous efforts to paint the problem as one solely limited to 'Pakistani inaction'.

I wish you the best in eradicating those crops, or finding some way to redirect the revenues. They fuel the insurgency, that is unarguable, and that dynamic must somehow be changed.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom