Al-Khalid & Type 99 Comparison

[zraver]

The AK was a failed effort by Norinco to update the Type 85IIIM to the Type 90II. The PLA wasn't interested with the last of the Type 59 derivitives and instead focused on the T-72 style Type 98 family. Norinco then looked to sell the design via export and found a willing customer in Pakistan.

Matador hate to break it to you but if the ZTZ-99 meats any of the true MBT's in combat its dead. The Best tank made in Asia is the SK2 MBT with its ceramic armor, state of the art (western vs eastern) firecontrol and drive train and leathal 120mm L/55. The Best tank in Asia is the M1A2SEP with the unstopable M829A3 and new ratheyon Block II thermal vision and force 21 battle management system.

 

[Interceptor]

The AK was a failed effort by Norinco to update the Type 85IIIM to the Type 90II. The PLA wasn't interested with the last of the Type 59 derivitives and instead focused on the T-72 style Type 98 family. Norinco then looked to sell the design via export and found a willing customer in Pakistan.

Matador hate to break it to you but if the ZTZ-99 meats any of the true MBT's in combat its dead. The Best tank made in Asia is the SK2 MBT with its ceramic armor, state of the art (western vs eastern) firecontrol and drive train and leathal 120mm L/55. The Best tank in Asia is the M1A2SEP with the unstopable M829A3 and new ratheyon Block II thermal vision and force 21 battle management system.

That doesnt make sense you should read about the project. No china has got good tanks well above average, M1A2SEP has failed in Iraq you have to agree on this. If both tanks met in war it would be an interesting.

 

[Quwa]

According to Kanwa the 300 Al Khalid MBTs the PA ordered will (as an upgrade) be equipped with Thales Catherine-FC and an armour defence system similar to Shtora - the Ukrainian counterpart apparently.

There is also the development of the Al Khalid II, we I think should start entering service around 2012. I imagine the improvements AK-II would have over the AK include a 1500hp engine over the 1200hp one; different turret; use of the reactive armour bricks being developed with GIAT; use of anti-tank missiles; data-link to satellites for IBMS; new thermal imaging system & better electronics.

Pakistan signed multiple MoUs with Ukraine, France and China during IDEAS 2006, there should be at least some relevance to AK-II.

Kanwa reported that Al Khalid demonstration models (not all) will be equipped with a 1500hp German diesel engine and SAGEM MATHIS thermal imaging system. IMO besides export, these demonstration units will probably be testbeds for AK-II. Would be interesting how this tank turns out, because it slated to form the mainstay of the PA's tank forces.

 

[zraver]

The AK is a Type 90II developed from the Type 85 the last of the Type 59 upgrades period this is not even a matter of debate.

Chinese tanks are well below average, They do not have enclose ammuntion storage, sub-par electronics (compared to US/Ger/Is/Fr/UK) systems power train issues and they use far to narrow of a track leading to overly high ground pressure for a tank of its weight.

Where has the M1A2 failed in Iraq? No M1A2 has been knocked out by another enemy tank ever. If your talking about the APU bruhaha that has been fixed. When was the last Abrams lost to a engine fire? The only things that can penetrate the armor of the A2 (and only from the sides at close range) are the Iranian 155mm EFP. Why don't you find some pictures of destroyed abrams and check the dates. its always the same 4 or 5 tanks over and over again.

if an M1A2 SEP met the type 99 in combat the Type 99 would be dead before it even knew the Abrams was around. The M829A3 will core the Type 99 while the Type 99's return fire has a only a slight chance to breach the Abrams. we did the math over at Sino defense. Simple formula really once you have all the specs.

Ek=.5M*v^2=J

The Chinese round is 660mm long with a 30/1 L/D ratio, weighs 6.3kg (8.5 w/ sabot) travels at 1780m/s is a spool style sabot, and has a claimed performance of 850mm penetration vs RHAe at 2000m.

3.15*1780^2= 9980460j

850mm penetration is enough to defeat the m1A2 if it hits a weak spot. The M829A3 on the other hand can punch the much more lightly armored Type 99 from any angle and from a much farther range

M829A3 8.8kg projectile 892mm long L/D (assumed 30/1) .98kg per 100mm of leangth 1555 m/s KE 10639310 est penetration 900mm of RHAe 11821.45j per mm of RHAe

The American round has half a million joulse more energy, was developed with a much larger R&D budget, and based on actual combat and trials vs modern armors inclusing the latest ERA's.

BTW incase you didn't know. I serve din the US Army as a tanker so I am talking about something I have real world experiance in.

 

[PakSniper]

But another thing is the AK is not all that bad, considering that we are going into JV with France for armour (which will improve it's protection greatly), and their equipment soon in the AK and other goodies, let alone the AKII which will come out in the future with heavy upgrades, some are saying it might be linked with Turkey's tank project, and that the next tank will be of some what western design, but what I think might happen is Pakistan might buy the TZ-99 and improve upon it changes of design (look western), etc, and have European technology input, considering Pakistan HIT already got experience in building a tank. As of right now we can handle the Indian tank force, espically with acquisition of TOWs, from US.

Remember, also even PA Cheifs said, this tank wouldn't form the backbone and that the future AKII will. This is Pakistan's first tank after all, with it's special touch to it, and don't think we will get a tank with Eastern equipment:

Even Zraver will agree PA will also have Western input since their tech is superior to what Russia or China can put on the field. And Pakistan always went back to western tech.

But non the less the future for PA ground forces look bright alot-of money is being spent to bring the military up to date, with these sanctions off our backs, we are getting experience and tech and manufacturing things on our own (Check out IDEAS and our upgrades to G-36 which will be give to Army and now Army is in competition to supply a new Rifle (PAC vs. EU), and night vision goggles, etc, with the sanctions lifted it also put a big smile on PAF officers knowing they can now get more than what they can if they were embargoed (Western tech).

 

[Interceptor]

The AK is a Type 90II developed from the Type 85 the last of the Type 59 upgrades period this is not even a matter of debate.

Chinese tanks are well below average, They do not have enclose ammuntion storage, sub-par electronics (compared to US/Ger/Is/Fr/UK) systems power train issues and they use far to narrow of a track leading to overly high ground pressure for a tank of its weight.

Where has the M1A2 failed in Iraq? No M1A2 has been knocked out by another enemy tank ever. If your talking about the APU bruhaha that has been fixed. When was the last Abrams lost to a engine fire? The only things that can penetrate the armor of the A2 (and only from the sides at close range) are the Iranian 155mm EFP. Why don't you find some pictures of destroyed abrams and check the dates. its always the same 4 or 5 tanks over and over again.

if an M1A2 SEP met the type 99 in combat the Type 99 would be dead before it even knew the Abrams was around. The M829A3 will core the Type 99 while the Type 99's return fire has a only a slight chance to breach the Abrams. we did the math over at Sino defense. Simple formula really once you have all the specs.

Ek=.5M*v^2=J

The Chinese round is 660mm long with a 30/1 L/D ratio, weighs 6.3kg (8.5 w/ sabot) travels at 1780m/s is a spool style sabot, and has a claimed performance of 850mm penetration vs RHAe at 2000m.

3.15*1780^2= 9980460j

850mm penetration is enough to defeat the m1A2 if it hits a weak spot. The M829A3 on the other hand can punch the much more lightly armored Type 99 from any angle and from a much farther range

M829A3 8.8kg projectile 892mm long L/D (assumed 30/1) .98kg per 100mm of leangth 1555 m/s KE 10639310 est penetration 900mm of RHAe 11821.45j per mm of RHAe

The American round has half a million joulse more energy, was developed with a much larger R&D budget, and based on actual combat and trials vs modern armors inclusing the latest ERA's.

BTW incase you didn't know. I serve din the US Army as a tanker so I am talking about something I have real world experiance in.

HEHEHE I aint bringing complexity. But I am a Physist (hope I spelt that right ) That equation looks like the the hf=0+EK if you show me the equations and working out as a nobleman I will look into them I do Maths too and I know what your trying to say. I just said on the day both tanks meet it would interesting think about it, China by then would have found alternative (hopefully )

 

[Interceptor]

Interceptor, it's true I back zraver as well I checked his math with another tanker called "M1A1Tanker" and he also confirmed it, zravers calculations of those done on sino-defence and PDF. Also, you can find the formula's online and do it yourself, but must know how to interpret the results.

But another thing is the AK is not all that bad, considering that we are going into JV with France for armour (which will improve it's protection greatly), and their equipment soon in the AK and other goodies, let alone the AKII which will come out in the future with heavy upgrades, some are saying it might be linked with Turkey's tank project, and that the next tank will be of some what western design, but what I think might happen is Pakistan might buy the TZ-99 and improve upon it changes of design (look western), etc, and have European technology input, considering Pakistan HIT already got experience in building a tank. As of right now we can handle the Indian tank force, espically with acquisition of TOWs, from US.

Remember, also even PA Cheifs said, this tank wouldn't form the backbone and that the future AKII will. This is Pakistan's first tank after all, with it's special touch to it, and don't think we will get a tank with Eastern equipment:

Even Zraver will agree PA will also have Western input since their tech is superior to what Russia or China can put on the field. And Pakistan always went back to western tech.

But non the less the future for PA ground forces look bright alot-of money is being spent to bring the military up to date, with these sanctions off our backs, we are getting experience and tech and manufacturing things on our own (Check out IDEAS and our upgrades to G-36 which will be give to Army and now Army is in competition to supply a new Rifle (PAC vs. EU), and night vision goggles, etc, with the sanctions lifted it also put a big smile on PAF officers knowing they can now get more than what they can if they were embargoed (Western tech).

Pakistan doesnt use Chinnese rounds in its tanks THATs COMPLETELY confirmed I know that very very well, Pakistan develops its own shells that are sold around the world to Europe and middle east blablah. His calculations are bassed on the chinnese round or shells not pakistani shells you should go on the POW site and check what type of rounds are develop.

 

[PakSniper]

Pakistan doesnt use Chinnese rounds in its tanks THATs COMPLETELY confirmed I know that very very well, Pakistan develops its own shells that are sold around the world to Europe and middle east blablah. His calculations are bassed on the chinnese round or shells not pakistani shells you should go on the POW site and check what type of rounds are develop.

I know that,. I was just saying that Pakistan's tanks wouldn't be the same as Chinese but better.

 

[Interceptor]

I know that,. I was just saying that Pakistan's tanks wouldn't be the same as Chinese but better.

I dont think the Al-Khalid is a type 98 have a look at both tanks there completly different spec to hight, width and armour, speed too weight ratio etc. The Pakistanis relay mostly on their airforce when it comes to attacking armoured devisions remember the history of 1965, 1971, 1999. Relatively its a new era for pakistan to decide on the perdect MBT. At the momement there is so much going on with the Al-Khalid it is said that the Saudis are testing it and Iraq has Bought a small devision of the tanks the Pakistani govenment is very HUSH HUSH on its capabilities in military Pakistan hasent even been able to complete its own order of tanks (or so believed) but they can provide Iraq with a devision of the tanks easily weired.

 

[Keysersoze]

The AK is a Type 90II developed from the Type 85 the last of the Type 59 upgrades period this is not even a matter of debate.

Chinese tanks are well below average, They do not have enclose ammuntion storage, sub-par electronics (compared to US/Ger/Is/Fr/UK) systems power train issues and they use far to narrow of a track leading to overly high ground pressure for a tank of its weight.

Where has the M1A2 failed in Iraq? No M1A2 has been knocked out by another enemy tank ever. If your talking about the APU bruhaha that has been fixed. When was the last Abrams lost to a engine fire? The only things that can penetrate the armor of the A2 (and only from the sides at close range) are the Iranian 155mm EFP. Why don't you find some pictures of destroyed abrams and check the dates. its always the same 4 or 5 tanks over and over again.

if an M1A2 SEP met the type 99 in combat the Type 99 would be dead before it even knew the Abrams was around. The M829A3 will core the Type 99 while the Type 99's return fire has a only a slight chance to breach the Abrams. we did the math over at Sino defense. Simple formula really once you have all the specs.

Ek=.5M*v^2=J

The Chinese round is 660mm long with a 30/1 L/D ratio, weighs 6.3kg (8.5 w/ sabot) travels at 1780m/s is a spool style sabot, and has a claimed performance of 850mm penetration vs RHAe at 2000m.

3.15*1780^2= 9980460j

850mm penetration is enough to defeat the m1A2 if it hits a weak spot. The M829A3 on the other hand can punch the much more lightly armored Type 99 from any angle and from a much farther range

M829A3 8.8kg projectile 892mm long L/D (assumed 30/1) .98kg per 100mm of leangth 1555 m/s KE 10639310 est penetration 900mm of RHAe 11821.45j per mm of RHAe

The American round has half a million joulse more energy, was developed with a much larger R&D budget, and based on actual combat and trials vs modern armors inclusing the latest ERA's.

BTW incase you didn't know. I serve din the US Army as a tanker so I am talking about something I have real world experiance in.

I think the gentleman is refering to the various urban situations that required the TUSK upgrade. Rather than tank vs tank.

 

[zraver]

The AK is a type 90II (aka MBT 2000 when demonstrated by Norinco)

Pakistan does not sell tank rounds to Europe, more than likely the Pakistani rounds are inferior to the Chinese round since the Type 90II uses the basic Autoloader from the 2a46 family of guns without extensive modification. This will force them to use short rod penetrators, vs the Chinese medium leangth penetrators.

The AK with DU-APFSDS should be equal to the T-90S weaker in some areas, stornger in others. It will boil down to crew training and armored force doctrine.

Interceptor,

looks like the the hf=0+EK if you show me the equations and working out as a nobleman I will look into them I do Maths too and I know what your trying to say

Just basic college math here so i will shy away from Einstiens potential energy formula HF/0=.5m*V^2. Instead I use the much easier for me to under stand Ek formula (.5m*V^2=J) Then divide the joules divided by claimed performance.

 

[Keysersoze]

I dont think the Al-Khalid is a type 98 have a look at both tanks there completly different spec to hight, width and armour, speed too weight ratio etc. The Pakistanis relay mostly on their airforce when it comes to attacking armoured devisions remember the history of 1965, 1971, 1999. Relatively its a new era for pakistan to decide on the perdect MBT. At the momement there is so much going on with the Al-Khalid it is said that the Saudis are testing it and Iraq has Bought a small devision of the tanks the Pakistani govenment is very HUSH HUSH on its capabilities in military Pakistan hasent even been able to complete its own order of tanks (or so believed) but they can provide Iraq with a devision of the tanks easily weired.

Where did you get the information that Pak can't complete it's own order?

 

[Interceptor]

Just basic college math here so i will shy away from Einstiens potential energy formula HF/0=.5m*V^2. Instead I use the much easier for me to under stand Ek formula (.5m*V^2=J) Then divide the joules divided by claimed performance.

It doesnt make sense though because the Ek formula is for the mostly used for the photo electric effect Ek stands for the maximum knetic energy given out by an photon. Your answer "HF/0=.5m*V^2" shows u have devided the formula hf/0 why when it should be 0-hf=Ek I believe. Please could check your working out and could you explain why you are using a Quantum Phenomena equation to prove the M1 can beat type 98. I thought you would use the motion equations or the projectile equations why not use the equation below.

 

[zraver]

I am using the formula given for the total possible kinetic/muzzel energy of the two nations APFSDS rounds. That formula is .5m*v^2=J

 

[Interceptor]

I am using the formula given for the total possible kinetic/muzzel energy of the two nations APFSDS rounds. That formula is .5m*v^2=J

But there is still the un answered question that you have used the photo electrice effect equation and where did you find the amount of energy released from a APFSDS, you need to explain what you are trying to find form the Photolectric effect. A projectile equation should tell us what what the rate enegy is released onto the object hit dont you agree.