Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool

[Maxpane]

good to hear that Al khali is doing fine. hope we can export it like jf 17

 

[Nasr]

Is it just me, or do I detect a decline in Pakistan Army's progress of upgrading Al-Khalids? Are they in two minds about going for another tank? Because when Al-Khalids were revealed, I got the impression that Pakistan Army was finally on course to replacing all the old era T-59s/T-69s with Al-Khalids. By any estimates, there should have been a target of at least 2000 or more Al-Khalids produced, inclusive of newer variants Al-Khalid Is and Al-Khalid IIs. With regards to india, they have managed to churn out a sizable number of T-90 tanks and are now upgrading them as well. That should serve as a wake up call for Pakistan Army. Also, personally, I would advise Pakistan Army against opting for Ukrainian Oplot tanks. They are in a pretty volatile state right now, and run the risk of a shooting war with Russia. So ordering Oplots would end up as a disastrous decision. Best options are to focus on the development and maturity of Al-Khalid, it's mass production (2000-3000 tanks) and VT-4s (1000-2000 tanks). Pakistan Army ought to phase out all T-59s/T-69s altogether. In 10 years time, if they end up with 4000 new generation tanks, then that would be a huge accomplishment.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

Is it just me, or do I detect a decline in Pakistan Army's progress of upgrading Al-Khalids? Are they in two minds about going for another tank? Because when Al-Khalids were revealed, I got the impression that Pakistan Army was finally on course to replacing all the old era T-59s/T-69s with Al-Khalids. By any estimates, there should have been a target of at least 2000 or more Al-Khalids produced, inclusive of newer variants Al-Khalid Is and Al-Khalid IIs. With regards to india, they have managed to churn out a sizable number of T-90 tanks and are now upgrading them as well. That should serve as a wake up call for Pakistan Army. Also, personally, I would advise Pakistan Army against opting for Ukrainian Oplot tanks. They are in a pretty volatile state right now, and run the risk of a shooting war with Russia. So ordering Oplots would end up as a disastrous decision. Best options are to focus on the development and maturity of Al-Khalid, it's mass production (2000-3000 tanks) and VT-4s (1000-2000 tanks). Pakistan Army ought to phase out all T-59s/T-69s altogether. In 10 years time, if they end up with 4000 new generation tanks, then that would be a huge accomplishment.

PA has phased out the T-59/69 some years ago.
They have been transferred to F.C.
Al Khalid program had stagnated during the zardari era due to lack of funds, but since than is back on track and is going great guns n at full tilt.

 

[Amigator]

PA has phased out the T-59/69 some years ago.
They have been transferred to F.C.
Al Khalid program had stagnated during the zardari era due to lack of funds, but since than is back on track and is going great guns n at full tilt.

Are you an inside man? If yes then why not a positive rating so far

 

[mingle]

Are you an inside man? If yes then why not a positive rating so far

That transformation started when Mush was president.FC used tanks started from Bajur operations onwards.

 

[niaz]

Here is the article from an Indian publication.

Quote

Pakistani military Generals are desperately scouting for a new Main battle tanks and, after evaluating many Chinese and Ukrainian options in last few years, they seem to have locked on to Russian T-90S Main Battle Tanks which according to their military planners fits the bill in different parameters and also meets their objective of trying to make Russia one of the defence suppliers of Pakistan. T-90S Main Battle Tanks which are locally produced in India and with orders over 1500 tanks just coming from India alone, Russians don’t even want to hold talks about it with Pakistan let alone even consider selling them to Pakistan even in small numbers but that it not stopping Pakistani government officials who keep bringing that up even though Russians continue to decline to sell them to keep Indian order flow intact. Pakistani Army in the last few years has evaluated Chinese MBT VT4 main battle tank and also carried out extensive trials of Turkish-made Altay MBT. Pakistani Army even went back to its older defense equipment supplier of Soviet origin weapons and conducted another round of extensive trials of Ukrainian T-84 Oplot-M main battle tank which basically was an upgraded T-80UD which Pakistani Army already has in its arsenal, but was not convinced. After several false starts and after several declaration to buy Chinese,Ukrainian and Turkish main battle tanks ,Pakistani military planners limited by budget and limited by options are hoping to procure T-90 MBTs from Russia ,which is a main battle tank of Russian and Indian Army . T-90s seems to be the obvious choice due to its high production line and better availability of spares and supplies after so-called locally developed Al-Khalid main battle tank jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990’s flopped big time. Pakistanis don’t want to admit it but their so-called pride Al-Khalid main battle tank which was just a re-branded Chinese Type 90-IIM tank was such a disaster that Pakistan doesn’t even want to develop a successor to it and the tank has been maintaining a low profile due to poor supply of spares and due to poor serviceability of it’s Ukrainian engine that even after producing 310 of this in Pakistan that they have no interest in restarting its production and instead are looking for a main battle tank from abroad. Al-Khalid MBTs entered into service with Pakistani Army in 2001 and immediately there was demand for 600 to 900 tanks, skeptics even with Pakistani army were not convinced about its capabilities but one-upmanship against India due to its delayed Arjun MBT program and ego of high ranking generals meant tank was rushed into production without proper extensive trials and without proper capabilities locally developed which made it superior to Indian T-72 MBTs at that time but India by then, decided to procure latest T-90s from Russia which over the years have been upgraded and have also been battle-tested in Iraq where they have performed exceptionally well when compared with American supplied M1A1 Abrams tanks. Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) which manufactured 310 Al-Khalid MBTs, In anticipation of the larger order, had developed a facility which can produce 50 tanks annually but was producing less than 18 Al-Khalid MBTs due to budget constraints and technical issues. As per HIT, each Al-Khalid MBTs costs $30 million which is close to three times over the cost of average a T-90 tanks which not only makes them super expensive but also technically inferior which is plagued with several issues and is a non-performer in a battleground. Al-Khalid was send to several friendly countries for evaluation in hope of export orders but technical issues kept cropping up even in those trials and none of the countries agreed to procure them and very few instead opted for Chinese Norinco-made MBT-2000 (Type 90-II) model, upon which so called pride of the nation Al-Khalid was based upon. For Years Pakistanis kept working on so-called “pride of the nation” Al-Khalid MBTs to fix all its issues yet issues remained and financially it was getting out of hand so the production was stopped at 310 units in 2014 and secretly the program was also buried without much hyper Halla Bulla which you usually find in Indian side when an indigenous program is closed down. Talks of Pakistan working on the development of Al-Khalid-2 has been going around for a decade now but that has been a no-show also because Pakistanis couldn’t find a desired main tank from China to re-brand it as Al-Khalid-2. Pakistani Army’s most reliable tank still remains 80’s procured 300 T-80UD tanks supplied by Ukraine but less than 88 are been upgraded with latest generation upgrades which mean hardly a handful of them now seems operational thus this explains Pakistan’s continues push to acquire T-90s from Russia.

Unquote
http://idrw.org/after-al-khalid-tank-becomes-a-flop-show-pakistan-pushing-russia-for-t-90-tanks/


Obviously one does not need to accept what your adversary says at “face value”. But to deny it as complete fabrication would also be imprudent. The truth lies somewhere in between.

Understand due to a large input of imported parts such as engine & gearbox train, cost of locally produced Al –Khalid tank is about $4-million per unit. On the other hand cost of a new T-90S is almost the same even though T-90S is a more capable tank. IMO Pak Army preference for T-90S is simply because it provides a bigger bang for the buck.

 

[Dazzler]

Here is the article from an Indian publication.

Quote

Pakistani military Generals are desperately scouting for a new Main battle tanks and, after evaluating many Chinese and Ukrainian options in last few years, they seem to have locked on to Russian T-90S Main Battle Tanks which according to their military planners fits the bill in different parameters and also meets their objective of trying to make Russia one of the defence suppliers of Pakistan. T-90S Main Battle Tanks which are locally produced in India and with orders over 1500 tanks just coming from India alone, Russians don’t even want to hold talks about it with Pakistan let alone even consider selling them to Pakistan even in small numbers but that it not stopping Pakistani government officials who keep bringing that up even though Russians continue to decline to sell them to keep Indian order flow intact. Pakistani Army in the last few years has evaluated Chinese MBT VT4 main battle tank and also carried out extensive trials of Turkish-made Altay MBT. Pakistani Army even went back to its older defense equipment supplier of Soviet origin weapons and conducted another round of extensive trials of Ukrainian T-84 Oplot-M main battle tank which basically was an upgraded T-80UD which Pakistani Army already has in its arsenal, but was not convinced. After several false starts and after several declaration to buy Chinese,Ukrainian and Turkish main battle tanks ,Pakistani military planners limited by budget and limited by options are hoping to procure T-90 MBTs from Russia ,which is a main battle tank of Russian and Indian Army . T-90s seems to be the obvious choice due to its high production line and better availability of spares and supplies after so-called locally developed Al-Khalid main battle tank jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990’s flopped big time. Pakistanis don’t want to admit it but their so-called pride Al-Khalid main battle tank which was just a re-branded Chinese Type 90-IIM tank was such a disaster that Pakistan doesn’t even want to develop a successor to it and the tank has been maintaining a low profile due to poor supply of spares and due to poor serviceability of it’s Ukrainian engine that even after producing 310 of this in Pakistan that they have no interest in restarting its production and instead are looking for a main battle tank from abroad. Al-Khalid MBTs entered into service with Pakistani Army in 2001 and immediately there was demand for 600 to 900 tanks, skeptics even with Pakistani army were not convinced about its capabilities but one-upmanship against India due to its delayed Arjun MBT program and ego of high ranking generals meant tank was rushed into production without proper extensive trials and without proper capabilities locally developed which made it superior to Indian T-72 MBTs at that time but India by then, decided to procure latest T-90s from Russia which over the years have been upgraded and have also been battle-tested in Iraq where they have performed exceptionally well when compared with American supplied M1A1 Abrams tanks. Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) which manufactured 310 Al-Khalid MBTs, In anticipation of the larger order, had developed a facility which can produce 50 tanks annually but was producing less than 18 Al-Khalid MBTs due to budget constraints and technical issues. As per HIT, each Al-Khalid MBTs costs $30 million which is close to three times over the cost of average a T-90 tanks which not only makes them super expensive but also technically inferior which is plagued with several issues and is a non-performer in a battleground. Al-Khalid was send to several friendly countries for evaluation in hope of export orders but technical issues kept cropping up even in those trials and none of the countries agreed to procure them and very few instead opted for Chinese Norinco-made MBT-2000 (Type 90-II) model, upon which so called pride of the nation Al-Khalid was based upon. For Years Pakistanis kept working on so-called “pride of the nation” Al-Khalid MBTs to fix all its issues yet issues remained and financially it was getting out of hand so the production was stopped at 310 units in 2014 and secretly the program was also buried without much hyper Halla Bulla which you usually find in Indian side when an indigenous program is closed down. Talks of Pakistan working on the development of Al-Khalid-2 has been going around for a decade now but that has been a no-show also because Pakistanis couldn’t find a desired main tank from China to re-brand it as Al-Khalid-2. Pakistani Army’s most reliable tank still remains 80’s procured 300 T-80UD tanks supplied by Ukraine but less than 88 are been upgraded with latest generation upgrades which mean hardly a handful of them now seems operational thus this explains Pakistan’s continues push to acquire T-90s from Russia.

Unquote
http://idrw.org/after-al-khalid-tank-becomes-a-flop-show-pakistan-pushing-russia-for-t-90-tanks/


Obviously one does not need to accept what your adversary says at “face value”. But to deny it as complete fabrication would also be imprudent. The truth lies somewhere in between.

Understand due to a large input of imported parts such as engine & gearbox train, cost of locally produced Al –Khalid tank is about $4-million per unit. On the other cost of a new T-90S is almost the same even though T-90S is a more capable tank. IMO Pak Army preference for T-90S is simply because it provides a bigger bang for the buck.

The entire article is full of inaccuracies and false info. A piece of trash at best.

Like all programs, the Al khalid program also had its share of mishaps but the program is still running and an updated version is available. As for the engine, both Al khalid and t-80UD use the same powerplant that has shown excellent performance in the desert. As for maintainability, it is being maintained, rebuilt at HIT's subsidiaries for many years.

Lastly, each Al khalid costs $3 million per piece but the offered capability is definitely better than t-90S. Lack of finance is the only problem.

 

[HRK]

As per HIT, each Al-Khalid MBTs costs $30 million

@niaz shaib literally the article you posted from idrw.org is worth less than trash, the above quoted part is just one example, btw idrw website is worst source for many reasons just follow it for few day you will yourself realise this

 

[Signalian]

Here is the article from an Indian publication.

Quote

Pakistani military Generals are desperately scouting for a new Main battle tanks and, after evaluating many Chinese and Ukrainian options in last few years, they seem to have locked on to Russian T-90S Main Battle Tanks which according to their military planners fits the bill in different parameters and also meets their objective of trying to make Russia one of the defence suppliers of Pakistan. T-90S Main Battle Tanks which are locally produced in India and with orders over 1500 tanks just coming from India alone, Russians don’t even want to hold talks about it with Pakistan let alone even consider selling them to Pakistan even in small numbers but that it not stopping Pakistani government officials who keep bringing that up even though Russians continue to decline to sell them to keep Indian order flow intact. Pakistani Army in the last few years has evaluated Chinese MBT VT4 main battle tank and also carried out extensive trials of Turkish-made Altay MBT. Pakistani Army even went back to its older defense equipment supplier of Soviet origin weapons and conducted another round of extensive trials of Ukrainian T-84 Oplot-M main battle tank which basically was an upgraded T-80UD which Pakistani Army already has in its arsenal, but was not convinced. After several false starts and after several declaration to buy Chinese,Ukrainian and Turkish main battle tanks ,Pakistani military planners limited by budget and limited by options are hoping to procure T-90 MBTs from Russia ,which is a main battle tank of Russian and Indian Army . T-90s seems to be the obvious choice due to its high production line and better availability of spares and supplies after so-called locally developed Al-Khalid main battle tank jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990’s flopped big time. Pakistanis don’t want to admit it but their so-called pride Al-Khalid main battle tank which was just a re-branded Chinese Type 90-IIM tank was such a disaster that Pakistan doesn’t even want to develop a successor to it and the tank has been maintaining a low profile due to poor supply of spares and due to poor serviceability of it’s Ukrainian engine that even after producing 310 of this in Pakistan that they have no interest in restarting its production and instead are looking for a main battle tank from abroad. Al-Khalid MBTs entered into service with Pakistani Army in 2001 and immediately there was demand for 600 to 900 tanks, skeptics even with Pakistani army were not convinced about its capabilities but one-upmanship against India due to its delayed Arjun MBT program and ego of high ranking generals meant tank was rushed into production without proper extensive trials and without proper capabilities locally developed which made it superior to Indian T-72 MBTs at that time but India by then, decided to procure latest T-90s from Russia which over the years have been upgraded and have also been battle-tested in Iraq where they have performed exceptionally well when compared with American supplied M1A1 Abrams tanks. Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) which manufactured 310 Al-Khalid MBTs, In anticipation of the larger order, had developed a facility which can produce 50 tanks annually but was producing less than 18 Al-Khalid MBTs due to budget constraints and technical issues. As per HIT, each Al-Khalid MBTs costs $30 million which is close to three times over the cost of average a T-90 tanks which not only makes them super expensive but also technically inferior which is plagued with several issues and is a non-performer in a battleground. Al-Khalid was send to several friendly countries for evaluation in hope of export orders but technical issues kept cropping up even in those trials and none of the countries agreed to procure them and very few instead opted for Chinese Norinco-made MBT-2000 (Type 90-II) model, upon which so called pride of the nation Al-Khalid was based upon. For Years Pakistanis kept working on so-called “pride of the nation” Al-Khalid MBTs to fix all its issues yet issues remained and financially it was getting out of hand so the production was stopped at 310 units in 2014 and secretly the program was also buried without much hyper Halla Bulla which you usually find in Indian side when an indigenous program is closed down. Talks of Pakistan working on the development of Al-Khalid-2 has been going around for a decade now but that has been a no-show also because Pakistanis couldn’t find a desired main tank from China to re-brand it as Al-Khalid-2. Pakistani Army’s most reliable tank still remains 80’s procured 300 T-80UD tanks supplied by Ukraine but less than 88 are been upgraded with latest generation upgrades which mean hardly a handful of them now seems operational thus this explains Pakistan’s continues push to acquire T-90s from Russia.

Unquote
http://idrw.org/after-al-khalid-tank-becomes-a-flop-show-pakistan-pushing-russia-for-t-90-tanks/


Obviously one does not need to accept what your adversary says at “face value”. But to deny it as complete fabrication would also be imprudent. The truth lies somewhere in between.

Understand due to a large input of imported parts such as engine & gearbox train, cost of locally produced Al –Khalid tank is about $4-million per unit. On the other hand cost of a new T-90S is almost the same even though T-90S is a more capable tank. IMO Pak Army preference for T-90S is simply because it provides a bigger bang for the buck.

Every regiment using the AK has praised this MBT. Many of such units have been using Type-85 III and Type-59 II, before converting to AK. If AK's design was such a flop then AK-I wouldn't have seen the light of the day. Military doesn't have funds to induct hundreds of MBT's on mere "ego" ! There have been no break downs in the exercises conducted using Ak's. The AZ numbers of induction are large since T-59's were above 1000. Bear in mind that induction of AZ does not increase MBT numbers in PA, its an upgrade of T-59, numbers remain the same. Due to shortage of funds which caused delays, not all T-59 II regiments could be replaced in due time. Many non-upgraded T-59's and T-69's were handed over to para military due to nature of WOT operations in west of Pakistan, creating further gaps in PA MBT inventory. To cater for these delays, a new MBT was required which could fill the gaps. The 25th and 26th Mechanised Divisions were raised and modern MBT's were required to which could operate in the desert. It was impossible to replace T-59's and T-69's while using the same AK line to continue production for already planned slow-rate produced AK's and on top of that build another 300 AK in next few years, so a new tender was floated and VT-4 and Oplot-M were evaluated. These two candidate MBT's have been evaluated, their concerned companies told about their shortcomings or requirements and then brought for evaluation again.

T-90 has been found to be a great candidate also and T-90 will be operating in the same conditions with the Indian Army. This gives the Indian reporters and analysts a chance to jump up and down on Indian Army selection of T-90 while remaining hush about the disastrous birth of Arjun MBT. If weight wouldn't have been an issue then PA would have trialed MBT's above 60 Tons also. T-90 is not the only MBT to prove itself in the desert, Leclerc has shown good performance too with UAE while Leopard 2 is being used by Turkish Army Currently in its war against heavily armed insurgents.

Coming to PA top brass, which includes Generals from HIT, POF, GHQ, AVRDE etc. Not all Generals stay quiet if a disaster has happened and not all Generals are egoists. We have had examples in the past where few of the retired Generals have openly criticized about anything, wherever and whenever they feel like, whats stopping any of the retired Generals to speak against AK, after all its been more than a decade since its induction ! A product with 300+ examples running out there is not a closely guarded secret of failure and on top of that AK has been upgraded. If a product is a failure, its not slated for upgrades at all. There are thousands of officers and soldiers who have interacted with this AK MBT and nothing worry-some about its performance has reached the media. furthermore, the cost has been heavily exaggerated, PA cannot afford a $30 mil MBT a piece.

 

[Amigator]

@Signalian Where does VARTA APS stands as compare to Shrota-1 of T-90? and Which APS is present in T-80UD of PA, clearly not Shrota-1 as Pakistan obtained tanks from Ukraine after Soviet Union dissolution.

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian Where does VARTA APS stands as compare to Shrota-1 of T-90? and Which APS is present in T-80UD of PA, clearly not Shrota-1 as Pakistan obtained tanks from Ukraine after Soviet Union dissolution.

I dont know if any APS is currently installed on MBT's of PA.

 

[Dazzler]

Every regiment using the AK has praised this MBT. Many of such units have been using Type-85 III and Type-59 II, before converting to AK. If AK's design was such a flop then AK-I wouldn't have seen the light of the day. Military doesn't have funds to induct hundreds of MBT's on mere "ego" ! There have been no break downs in the exercises conducted using Ak's. The AZ numbers of induction are large since T-59's were above 1000. Bear in mind that induction of AZ does not increase MBT numbers in PA, its an upgrade of T-59, numbers remain the same. Due to shortage of funds which caused delays, not all T-59 II regiments could be replaced in due time. Many non-upgraded T-59's and T-69's were handed over to para military due to nature of WOT operations in west of Pakistan, creating further gaps in PA MBT inventory. To cater for these delays, a new MBT was required which could fill the gaps. The 25th and 26th Mechanised Divisions were raised and modern MBT's were required to which could operate in the desert. It was impossible to replace T-59's and T-69's while using the same AK line to continue production for already planned slow-rate produced AK's and on top of that build another 300 AK in next few years, so a new tender was floated and VT-4 and Oplot-M were evaluated. These two candidate MBT's have been evaluated, their concerned companies told about their shortcomings or requirements and then brought for evaluation again.

T-90 has been found to be a great candidate also and T-90 will be operating in the same conditions with the Indian Army. This gives the Indian reporters and analysts a chance to jump up and down on Indian Army selection of T-90 while remaining hush about the disastrous birth of Arjun MBT. If weight wouldn't have been an issue then PA would have trialed MBT's above 60 Tons also. T-90 is not the only MBT to prove itself in the desert, Leclerc has shown good performance too with UAE while Leopard 2 is being used by Turkish Army Currently in its war against heavily armed insurgents.

Coming to PA top brass, which includes Generals from HIT, POF, GHQ, AVRDE etc. Not all Generals stay quiet if a disaster has happened and not all Generals are egoists. We have had examples in the past where few of the retired Generals have openly criticized about anything, wherever and whenever they feel like, whats stopping any of the retired Generals to speak against AK, after all its been more than a decade since its induction ! A product with 300+ examples running out there is not a closely guarded secret of failure and on top of that AK has been upgraded. If a product is a failure, its not slated for upgrades at all. There are thousands of officers and soldiers who have interacted with this AK MBT and nothing worry-some about its performance has reached the media. furthermore, the cost has been heavily exaggerated, PA cannot afford a $30 mil MBT a piece.

In fact, contrary to the sorry pic the article tried to post, the AK is being more aggressively used for the last few years. Not to mention its technology is being shared for upgrading other mbts including UD, 85IIAP and Alzarrar.

 

[Dazzler]

 

[Dazzler]

Mikhail Demyanovich Borisyuk, Ukraine's ace tank designer, testing the Alkhalid.

 

[AsifIjaz]

Mikhail Demyanovich Borisyuk, Ukraine's ace tank designer, testing the Alkhalid.

Thanks for sharing. Any details around what was being tested or evaluated.
Was the visit a recent one i.e. After tge signing if mou a few months back..??