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Akbar and other Mughals

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Something more to chew on: A very new (2009) study showing:

"no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals" and "the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins"

Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 54, 47–55


This discussion has admittedly strayed somewhat. A Mod may kindly transfer all "Aryan Invasion Theory" related posts into a separate thread. Thanks.
 
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Something more to chew on: A very new (2009) study showing:

"no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals" and "the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins"

Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 54, 47–55
Just skimmed through the paper. The finding is not surprising, the conclusion drawn is. For example, their finding that 'the presence of R1a1* in very high frequency in Brahmins, irrespective of linguistic and geographic affiliations' is consistent with other research works. However, they conclude that 'co-presence of this haplogroup in many of the tribal populations of India, its existence in high frequency in Saharia (present study) and Chenchu tribes, the high frequency of R1a* in Kashmiri Pandits (KPs—Brahmins) as well as Saharia (tribe) and associated phylogenetic ages supported the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins'.

They don't explain why admixture, particularly when they themselves admit that the Brahmins are 'the founder haplogroup for the population', is discounted to arrive at this conclusion. Or why high presence of R1a1 in three-four tribes out of numerous other shall be considered as representative of the all the Indian tribes.

The authors are also suggesting the Out of India Theory (OIT) which goes against the archeological and linguistic evidence.

I could be wrong in my assessment, but there is enough reason to wait for sometime till another paper comes out, either corroborating the research or rejecting it, before going ga ga about it.

Anyway, around the same time (Jan, 2009) that they published their paper, another paper by Zhongming Zhao et al found:
The results revealed that a substantial part of today's North Indian paternal gene pool was contributed by Central Asian lineages who are Indo-European speakers, suggesting that extant Indian caste groups are primarily the descendants of Indo-European migrants.[...] The findings of the present study provide insights into prehistoric and early historic patterns of migration into India and the evolution of Indian populations in recent history.
This discussion has admittedly strayed somewhat. A Mod may kindly transfer all "Aryan Invasion Theory" related posts into a separate thread. Thanks.
Second that. Although don't know how long I will be able to contribute to this IVC debate.
 
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are people really discussing Pakistan Military History?

We asians love to digress. I cannot see what the Aryans have to do with Mil History or Mughals.

It could have been an interesting topic though.
 
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Any genetical study on a large community of people, trying to determine their origin and trajectory of evolution, is always to be taken with a pinch of salt, because of immaturity of the techniques used. However these studies do provide a direction and unless proved otherwise, there is no reason why these should be dismissed by a wave of hand.


No scientific discipline walks alone. It needs to be corroborated from other discipline as well. If archeological evidence, as well as biological evidence point to the same direction, it means that a theory, on which evidences are being sought, is more than likely to be correct. But if these evidences are at loggerheads with each other, then it means, that the theory needs to be revised. Thats how science works - through validation.

You seem to be a man of science. That makes it even more unfortunate that you are buying this BS.

I fully understand validation.

Are you aware of any evidence that shows that the Aryan invasion actually occured? Archeological findings, writings or anything else like that? I don't know about the existence of any such evidence, that's why I'm asking. Please understand the skepticism of people because there have been several studies showing the white race as being "superior" to other races during the same time that the Aryan invasion theory came out.

My opinion comes from talking to a good friend of mine, who is a Tamil geneticist in USA. She's a student, but she is well published. Though she works with fruitflies, she has looked into it and is leaning towards believing that the Aryan invasion is a myth. I myself am an fMRI expert with an engineering and genetics background, so a cursory glance suggests in the same direction, though I must emphasize that I haven't looked at this thoroughly.

Finally, I find it absolutely abhorrent that the religious right has used this theory for its own political ends. However let's not use that to dismiss it outright. Let the geneticists prove one way or the other, which WILL happen in the next 2 decades or so.
 
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A compilation of various papers over the years:


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The Aryan Invasion Theory is False - Genetic Evidence

* No trace of “demographic disruption” in the North-West of the subcontinent between 4500 and 800 BCE; this negates the possibility of any massive intrusion, by so-called Indo-Aryans or other populations, during that period.
* Deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split [between Europeans and Indians] is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe.”
* Haplogroup U, being common to North Indian and “Caucasoid” populations, was found in tribes of eastern India such as the Lodhas and Santals, which would not be the case if it had been introduced through Indo-Aryans. Such is also the case of the haplogroup M, another marker frequently mentioned in the early literature as evidence of an invasion: in reality, haplogroup M occurs with a high frequency, averaging about 60%, across most Indian population groups, irrespective of geographical location of habitat. Tribal populations have higher frequencies of haplogroup M than caste populations.”

- U.S. anthropologists Kenneth Kennedy, John Lukacs and Brian Hemphill.


* Migrations into India “did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations.” There are low frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’ — that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.

- U.S. biological anthropologist Todd R. Disotell.


* There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.

- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.


* mtDNA haplogroup “M” common to India (with a frequency of 60%), Central and Eastern Asia (40% on average), and even to American Indians; however, this frequency drops to 0.6% in Europe, which is “inconsistent with the ‘general Caucasoidness’ of Indians.” This shows, once again, that “the Indian maternal gene pool has come largely through an autochthonous history since the Late Pleistocene.” U haplogroup frequency 13% in India, almost 14% in North-West Africa, and 24% from Europe to Anatolia. “Indian and western Eurasian haplogroup U varieties differ profoundly; the split has occurred about as early as the split between the Indian and eastern Asian haplogroup M varieties. The data show that both M and U exhibited an expansion phase some 50,000 years ago, which should have happened after the corresponding splits.” In other words, there is a genetic connection between India and Europe, but a far more ancient one than was thought.
* If one were to extend methodology used to suggest an Aryan invasion based on Y-Dna statistics to populations of Eastern and Southern India, one would be led to an exactly opposite result: “the straightforward suggestion would be that both Neolithic (agriculture) and Indo-European languages arose in India and from there, spread to Europe.” The authors do not defend this thesis, but simply guard against “misleading interpretations” based on limited samples and faulty methodology.
* The Chenchu tribe is genetically close to several castes, there is a “lack of clear distinction between Indian castes and tribes.

- Twenty authors headed by Kivisild - Archaeogenetics of Europe - 2000.



* “Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among their present-day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the linguistically defined groups in India should be considered more ‘autochthonous’ than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent.”

- Mait Metspalu and fifteen co-authors analyzing 796 Indian and 436 Iranian mtDNAs. 2001.



* Geneticist Toomas Kivisild led a study (2003) in which comparisons of the diversity of R1a1 (R-M17) haplogroup in Indian, Pakistani, Iranian, Central Asian, Czech and Estonian populations. The study showed that the diversity of R1a1 in India, Pakistan, and Iran, is higher than in Czechs (40%), and Estonians[12].
* Kivisild came to the conclusion that "southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup": "Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup".[12]
* “Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation. ”

- Kivilsid - 2003



* Based on 728 samples covering 36 Indian populations, it announced in its very title how its findings revealed a “Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists,” i.e. of the Indo-Aryans, and stated its general agreement with the previous study. For instance, the authors rejected the identification of some Y-DNA genetic markers with an “Indo-European expansion,” an identification they called “convenient but incorrect ... overly simplistic.” To them, the subcontinent’s genetic landscape was formed much earlier than the dates proposed for an Indo-Aryan immigration: “The influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. ... There is no evidence whatsoever to conclude that Central Asia has been necessarily the recent donor and not the receptor of the R1a lineages.”
* “Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus....” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.”
* The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time or co-habited, although more research is needed. R2 is very rare in Europe.

Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majumder, and P. A. Underhill. - 2006.



* “The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward.”
* “The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family.”
* “Southern castes and tribals are very similar to each other in their Y-chromosomal haplogroup compositions.” As a result, “it was not possible to confirm any of the purported differentiations between the caste and tribal pools,” a conclusion that directly clashes with the Aryan invasion theory which purports that male European Aryans chased tribal adivasis and aboriginals down south.

Sanghamitra Sahoo, T. Kivisild and V. K. Kashyap. - 2006.



* When Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe: “indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.”

-Lluís Quintana-Murci,Vincent Macaulay,Stephen Oppenheimer,Michael Petraglia,and their associates



* “For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17(Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, associated with the male Aryan invasion theory) and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”

-Stephen Oppenheimer


* A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed "no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals". Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.
* In its conclusions the study proposed "the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins" as well as "the origin of R1a1* ... in the Indian subcontinent".
* S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe.

- Sharma et al 2009



* "This paper rewrites history... there is no north-south divide."
* "There is no truth to the Aryan-Dravidian theory as they came hundreds or thousands of years after the ancestral north and south Indians had settled in India."
* The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups. "The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society."
* "Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different."
* The present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from two distinct ancestral populations - the Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and the Ancestral South Indian (ASI).
* "The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, "At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India."
* The study also helps understand why the incidence of genetic diseases among Indians is different from the rest of the world. Singh said that 70% of Indians were burdened with genetic disorders and the study could help answer why certain conditions restricted themselves to one population. For instance, breast cancer among Parsi women, motor neuron diseases among residents of Tirupati and Chittoor, or sickle cell anaemia among certain tribes in central India and the North-East can now be understood better, said researchers.
* The researchers, who are now keen on exploring whether Eurasians descended from ANI, find in their study that ANIs are related to western Eurasians, while the ASIs do not share any similarity with any other population across the world.

Thangaraj and Singh at a press conference.(Aryan-Dravidian divide a myth: Study - India - The Times of India)

"Reconstructing Indian Population History"
- David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh
- 2009

The Aryan Invasion Theory is False - Genetic Evidence (R2dnainfo)
 
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I fully understand validation.
Thats a relief. Your previous post was indicating something else.

Are you aware of any evidence that shows that the Aryan invasion actually occured? Archeological findings, writings or anything else like that? I don't know about the existence of any such evidence, that's why I'm asking. Please understand the skepticism of people because there have been several studies showing the white race as being "superior" to other races during the same time that the Aryan invasion theory came out.
You have a whole lot of catching up to do. There was no invasion by the 'Aryans'. This started to become clear from late 50s and early 60s and finally in the mid 80s a massive archeological expedition, headed by George Dales of the University of California, confirmed that the 'invasion' theory was an erroneous conclusion drawn on too little evidence. But there is every indication that towards the end of mature Harappan and the beginning of late Harappan, somewhere between 1900 BC and 1700 BC, migration of 'Aryans' did happen. Strongest evidence comes from linguistics (and thats where you should start your catching up and not genetics) backed by recent excavations at far off sites in Russia, among other places, relating to Andronovo culture (Sintashta-Petrovka culture) and BMAC.
My opinion comes from talking to a good friend of mine, who is a Tamil geneticist in USA. She's a student, but she is well published. Though she works with fruitflies, she has looked into it and is leaning towards believing that the Aryan invasion is a myth. I myself am an fMRI expert with an engineering and genetics background, so a cursory glance suggests in the same direction, though I must emphasize that I haven't looked at this thoroughly.
Then opine when you have looked at it thoroughly. And btw, what you do professionally is irrelevant. Some other day, and I would have assumed that you are trying make an argument from authority. But since I don't know you, I will give you the benefit of doubt.
...I find it absolutely abhorrent that the religious right has used this theory for its own political ends.
Welcome to the club

However let's not use that to dismiss it outright. Let the geneticists prove one way or the other, which WILL happen in the next 2 decades or so.
I have serious doubt if genetics will settle this issue. There are way too many conflicting researches, most confirming the evidence at hand, and some contradicting.
 
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A compilation of various papers over the years:

-snip-

The Aryan Invasion Theory is False - Genetic Evidence (R2dnainfo)
Why do you keep repeating same thing over and over again. First, the beef is not with mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA is what we acquire from the maternal side). Geneticists are more or less unanimous that mtDNA is pretty much homogeneous among Indians. The beef is with Y-chromosome Haplogroup-R1a1 or M17, which appears to be of foreign origin. (The Russian region, which is known for Andronovo culture, records an extremely high percentage of R1a1)

Second, many of these research papers have been contradicted subsequently. (I would have loved to provide with the rejoinders, but alas, I have lost the bookmarks, and neither do I have time to google for the links).
 
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Why do you keep repeating same thing over and over again. First, the beef is not with mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA is what we acquire from the maternal side). Geneticists are more or less unanimous that mtDNA is pretty much homogeneous among Indians. The beef is with Y-chromosome Haplogroup-R1a1 or M17, which appears to be of foreign origin. (The Russian region, which is known for Andronovo culture, records an extremely high percentage of R1a1)

If you look at what was written, you will find several new sources, including some which look at Y-chromosome data.

And such a compilation has its own value, imho. Feel free to not read it if you please.

Second, many of these research papers have been contradicted subsequently. (I would have loved to provide with the rejoinders, but alas, I have lost the bookmarks, and neither do I have time to google for the links).

Fine, we will treat your claims as unsubstantiated for now.
 
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If you look at what was written, you will find several new sources, including some which look at Y-chromosome data.
I am aware of most of these researches, and I do have copies of some of those papers, although I must admit, I am a little out of touch for the last one and half year or so.
And such a compilation has its own value, imho. Feel free to not read it if you please.
To the right wingers, of course. But to be unbiased one is needed to provide the rejoinders as well. There is always two side to a story.

However, 5 bucks say you don't even have a clue what these researches talk about, or about the methodology they adopted, or the debate it sparked, or where and why the disagreements lie, or where they agree.

For example, earlier you had posted a research published in 2009, by Sharma et al, which would have us believe that some breakthrough has been made. Once I got to go through the paper, I realised, that they were using the same set of data, which other scientists (Kivisild 2000, 2003; Codaux 2004) had used to come to one conclusion, while they chose to conclude something else, without so much as giving an adequate explanation.

Quote mining will take you only so far. Instead of copy-pasting, try to have your own opinion.
Fine, we will treat your claims as unsubstantiated for now.
You are more than welcome, if fool's paradise is your residential address.
 
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Some background: Y-chromosomes are tend to remain unchanged from father to son, whereas mtDNA tend to remain unchanged from mother to daughter. However, the process is not perfect, and mutations tend to occur over a period of time. Here is a good explanation:

Furthermore the historical sequence of these mutations can also be inferred. For example, if a set of ten Y chromosomes (derived from ten different men) contains a mutation, A, but only five of these chromosomes contain a second mutation, B, it must be the case that mutation B occurred after mutation A. Furthermore all ten men who carry the chromosome with mutation A are the direct male line descendants of the same man who was the first person to carry this mutation. The first man to carry mutation B was also a direct male line descendant of this man, but is also the direct male line ancestor of all men carrying mutation B. Series of mutations such as this form molecular lineages. Furthermore each mutation defines a set of specific Y chromosomes called a haplogroup.

Haplogroup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It appears that the key to the puzzle is diversity of of the haplogroups, for two reasons:

1. Diversity within a tribe or caste indicates how long back the genetic input into that tribe or caste occured.

2. Diversity also determines the direction of migrations: The migration must have happened from regions of higher diversity to regions of lower diversity.

Here is some further information from diversity studies:

The ages of accumulated microsatellite variation in the majority of Indian haplogroups exceed 10,000–15,000 years, which attests to the antiquity of regional differentiation. Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent single history.

Source: Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists

Sahoo (2006) argued from Y-chromosomal data against any major influx into the Indian subcontinent from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family. On the R1a populations of North India, he noted that "one should expect to observe dramatically lower genetic variation among Indian R1a lineages. In fact, the opposite is true: the STR haplotype diversity on the background of R1a in Central Asia (and also in Eastern Europe) has already been shown to be lower than that in India . Rather, the high incidence of R1* and R1a throughout Central Asian and East European populations (without R2 and R* in most cases) is more parsimoniously explained by gene flow in the opposite direction, possibly with an early founder effect in South or West Asia"

Geneticist Toomas Kivisild led a study (2003) in which comparisons of the diversity of R1a1 (R-M17) haplogroup in Indian, Pakistani, Iranian, Central Asian, Czech and Estonian populations. The study showed that the diversity of R1a1 in India, Pakistan, and Iran, is higher than in Czechs (40%), and Estonians.

Source: Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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My dear fellow, I would urge you not to fly off the handle and make personal remarks. Nobody is preventing anybody from posting varying points of view.

To the right wingers, of course. But to be unbiased one is needed to provide the rejoinders as well. There is always two side to a story.

However, 5 bucks say you don't even have a clue what these researches talk about, or about the methodology they adopted, or the debate it sparked, or where and why the disagreements lie, or where they agree.

You are more than welcome, if fool's paradise is your residential address.
 
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