Airpower Imbalance - Nuclear Pakistan's Achilles' Heel

[apr1000]

Yaar there is no doubt that India also has some of the best pilots but PAF Pilots are equally matched....Now Look at Saudi Air Force..they have top of the line defense system, refuelers, AWACS, F15E, UAE WITH F16 60 Block and AESA Radar but our pilots are far better then UAE/SRAF Pilots.It all comes down to training.When we say we have better training it means although we don't have latest tech equipment our pilots can still match the IAF Pilots and some are even better then IAF Pilots.Anyway, i don't know much about this stuff if you want to read more about PAF then read Sir Muradk's posts.

u trained with saudi's

India has trained with Israeli's

in simple terms

Israel > saudi's

 

[EagleEyes]

In absolute terms India may lose more than Pakistan, although in relative terms Pakistan would lose more in a nuclear exchange. India's economy may be crippled and a lot of people killed, but it would survive to some extent while Pakistan as an organised state would be almost annihilated.

Pakistan will make sure that India is completely annihilated. I think no piece of Indian land should be forgiven if India nukes Pakistan.

 

[x_man]

To be Fair PAF will have a great BVR weapon with 18 f16/52 + 44 MLU to 44 of their F16.

66 BVR AMRAAM equipped F16 will double the fire power of PAF overnite. Add chinease Awacs and theres your first line of defense..

Your second line is 170 WVR F7PG with your sam systems which will provide the battle over your home land.

Thats useful deterrance but stil no way can PAF take air war to indian Skies. You don,t have the punch/ firepower in the PAF to be a offensive air force....

IAF is being built to be a offensive force multipler both in South Asia skies and the indian Ocean.

That means long range MRCA. refuling planes and AWACS.... ON IL76 LONG RANGE russian carriers.

People keep saying PAF training yet your pilots do not have any exposure to BVR combat,, refuelling over long range missions,, or training with western air forces. OR NOT TO SAME LEVEL HAS THEIR IAF counterparts

PAF doctrine until recently has been set in a 1970-80s time warp. ie WVR combat &homeland defence.

Only now is PAF awakening to BVR. AWACS and refellers playing catch up to IAF who have a much bigger $$$ budget to play with..

PAF was beter equipped and trained in my opinion in 65 & 71. prehaps even until the late 80s. But has your rel;ationship with usa cooled so did your technology and with it the modern training.

INDIA has had the edge in tech,, doctrine,, exposure to overseas training for at least 10 years...

YOU CAN SEE THIS IN THE EQUIPMENT that IAF has inducted or on order as we speak.

IAF training amd methods are not inferior in any way shape or form

To some extent I agree with you but not fully…

Had we received F-16Cs or MLU carried out earlier, things had been quite well in favour of PAF…BUT as it didn’t happen so no doubt that IAF has an edge when it comes to BVR technology…..While PAF pilots extensively train in simulated anti-BVR scenarios, there is no alternate to the real thing…..Its a shortcoming that every one with heavy shoulders is well aware of and they are trying their best to catch up with all that was lost in preceding years….Have a look at the future PAF projects and it will answer some of your questions…

You also mentioned something about overseas training, well just to put record straight, PAF had been conducting exercises with USAF/USN since 70s up untill few years back…Heard about exercises Inspired Alerts... heres a proof!!!

USAF also visited Pakistan for another exercise in 2006 at Jacobabad..Other than USA, we had multiple exercises in Turkey, Saudi Arabia and UAE at their home turf in last few years…

Before 65 war, IAF clearly had a numerical superiority and nobody could predict that how PAF will take such a huge force or how it will be able to sustain the air operations in face of being so outnumbered…Whatever happened, whole world witnessed….While 71 was a political disaster, however PAF again managed to put a good show as per her doctrine…

If the two countries go to war today, PAF will be on mainly defensive with limited offensive….However, in next one to two years, as MLU has already started and with planned package on JF-17, IAF will lose the advantage that she has at the moment….When two BVR fighters will meet, it will again be down to better training and tactics….

 

[Shiny Capstar]

Pakistan will make sure that India is completely annihilated. I think no piece of Indian land should be forgiven if India nukes Pakistan.

India has a no first use policy if I am right and besides, Pakistan is far more likely to launch a first strike than India. So it would be India making sure no piece of Pakistan remains, actually does Pakistan have enough nukes to take out the whole of India?

 

[Shiny Capstar]

If the two countries go to war today, PAF will be on mainly defensive with limited offensive….However, in next one to two years, as MLU has already started and with planned package on JF-17, IAF will lose the advantage that she has at the moment….When two BVR fighters will meet, it will again be down to better training and tactics….

Not really, when two BVR fighters meet there are a lot more factors than training and tactics. Who has more altitude, better kinetic performance, longer range missiles, better radar/lower RCS to choose the conditions to fight (to some extent), better ECM's and better missile systems (far more than range goes into a missile) to name a few.

 

[x_man]

u trained with saudi's

India has trained with Israeli's

in simple terms

Israel > saudi's

Hmmm....interesing deduction ...as per your theory:-

>>>>Indians trained with Israeli's AF

>>>>However, PAF pilots have shot down Israeli pilots..

>>>>Now that means PAF pilots are better than Israeli's who also trained Indians...

So doing some 2 + 2 , in simple terms using your formula :-

PAF > Indian AF

 

[Jihad]

Hmmm....interesing deduction ...as per your theory:-

>>>>Indians trained with Israeli's AF

>>>>However, PAF pilots have shot down Israeli pilots..

>>>>Now that means PAF pilots are better than Israeli's who also trained Indians...

So doing some 2 + 2 , in simple terms using your formula :-

PAF > Indian AF

In simple words:

x_man > apr1000

 

[Pashtun]

Yaar basically if you're equipped with Beyond Visual Range Missile then it can engage and hit enemy aircrafts at ranges beyond 20 nautical miles (37 km) so you can lock on your enemy and fire missile on him without actually seeing the enemy aircraft.Also it means you get first shot capability.

Would it be a confirm kill? or is there a chance the other aircraft can deal with the missile and launch a couple against you?

 

[x_man]

Not really, when two BVR fighters meet there are a lot more factors than training and tactics. Who has more altitude, better kinetic performance, longer range missiles, better radar/lower RCS to choose the conditions to fight (to some extent), better ECM's and better missile systems (far more than range goes into a missile) to name a few.

You are right...but the factors that you mentioned like altitude, energy, RCS, ECM etc are broadly integrated and do form a part of BVR training and tactics...All these factors are also considered while pilots are training for the BFM ( basic fighting maneouvers) as well....

 

[Patriot]

u trained with saudi's

India has trained with Israeli's

in simple terms

Israel > saudi's

Actually, We trained Saudis.Israel on the other hand trained Indians.

 

[Patriot]

India has a no first use policy if I am right and besides, Pakistan is far more likely to launch a first strike than India. So it would be India making sure no piece of Pakistan remains, actually does Pakistan have enough nukes to take out the whole of India?

I don't think so but i think just nuking main cities of India will cripple India economy and destroy main infrastructure and not to mention the fall out will also reach other parts of country.Pakistan is small so it will be destroyed.Both countries will take several decades to recover.
For our Indian Members:X-man is former PAF Pilot.

 

[Patriot]

Would it be a confirm kill? or is there a chance the other aircraft can deal with the missile and launch a couple against you?

It's not confirmed kill AFAIK..there are some anti-BVR measures which can save you from missile..maybe Sir X-man can tell you more about it.

 

[el nino]

I agree With X Man.

Once F16 MLU are complete & block52S ARRIVE IAF main advantage will disappear. ie PAF will have USA BVR

From a indian prespective the JF17 are a unknown capability.. MY gut feeling is they will be below F16/52 until the JF17 matures in 5 years time.

HECK IOC will take til 2009/2010..

However.

Based on 230 su30 mki with tanche 3 getting ibris aesa IAF will again take a huge leap.

Also don,t forget the first Phalcons Awacs arrive in March 2009.

PAF will get better esp with J10 but they will always go into battle outnumbered and i actually think TECH wise too now inda has Israel & the western options here too india will have the edge..

 

[notorious_eagle]

I agree With X Man.

Once F16 MLU are complete & block52S ARRIVE IAF main advantage will disappear. ie PAF will have USA BVR

From a indian prespective the JF17 are a unknown capability.. MY gut feeling is they will be below F16/52 until the JF17 matures in 5 years time.

HECK IOC will take til 2009/2010..

However.

Based on 230 su30 mki with tanche 3 getting ibris aesa IAF will again take a huge leap.

Also don,t forget the first Phalcons Awacs arrive in March 2009.

PAF will get better esp with J10 but they will always go into battle outnumbered and i actually think TECH wise too now inda has Israel & the western options here too india will have the edge..

You are right, the first batch of JF17 will have the same capability that F16 Block 15 has. But by the next 5 years, with more improvements JF17 will be as good as Block 52. Pakistan is getting almost 9 AWACS, more than India. Pakistan rejected J10A, they are getting a much more advance version of J10 to fullfill the requirments of PAF. India will always have an advantage with the numbers, but keep in mind IAF will never deploy all its aircrafts against Pakistan. They need almost half there fleet to defend the borders against China. Right now, PAF is almost a decade behind India in terms of technology. By 2010 or 2011, this advantage will be overcome.

 

[Shiny Capstar]

I don't think so but i think just nuking main cities of India will cripple India economy and destroy main infrastructure and not to mention the fall out will also reach other parts of country.Pakistan is small so it will be destroyed.Both countries will take several decades to recover.
For our Indian Members:X-man is former PAF Pilot.

That is my point, India would be crippled and Pakistan destroyed so saying India has more to lose is a void point.