What's new

Aircraft carrier Liaoning vs Vikramaditya

It's better if China's growth not affect to others.
Despite of not so good long history, recently the relationship between China and Vietnam are friendship for most of the time, during WW2, during Indochina conflict, and officially right now.

We appreciate the friendship growth of China.

About equipments and training, could you point out when the last real combat China army, air force join ? in Korean war for army ???

For Vietnam army and air force, they face to face to the biggest until now air force and have many winning before the enemy equipped even much better than China with most advance ACCs in comparing to even Russia. FYI, US navy used at least 2 ACC at the same time against very limited ability Vietnam navy and air force.

Which aircraft carriers were in Vietnam war?

Answer:
From 1964-73 the US Navy had 23 operational aircraft carriers, and 21 of them were assigned at one time or another to Task Force 77 (the strike force of the US 7th Fleet) and operated at Yankee Station, off North Vietnam.
Vietnamese pilots have rich experience in real combat with US pilots well-equipped and they turn to ACE by shot down from 5-9 US aircrafts each pilot.
FYI, North Korean pilots cannot compete the performance of Vietnamese pilots, even Russian pilots can't.
At the war time, Vietnam has support from China for anti-aircraft operated by Chinese personnel, but to be frank, it's low performance and many losses for equipment and personnel, can't last for long in a war like Vietnam war.

At this time, Vietnam has very friendship relation with India as I know.
Better if China could know that friendship with most of neighbors is better than to be the enemy of everyone.

I reminded that in every war, Vietnam consider the success of their defence is winning.
so the target is difference from China's target. China consider the more occupation is the win.
So you all know that should not attack Vietnam and occupy our land and sea, we make no damage to anyone unless we are under attacked.
 
.
I read that Liaoning has sacrifice of long range air-defense for bringing more aircrafts.
Is it right? Why ? Is it true that Liaoning would never use in real combat so they use it as demonstration and practice site? and never thinking about the chance of its survival under attacks?

Vietnam has small quantity of aircraft so they would not put their aircrafts at risk in a carrier like Liaoning ... how about a Boom and 54 aircraft sunk together with Liaoning ..

Armament:

After refit:
• 3 x Type 1030 CIWS
• 3 x HQ-10 (18 Cell Missile system)
• 2 x ASW 12 tube rocket launchers


As designed:
• 8 × AK-630 AA guns (6×30 mm, 6,000 round/min/mount, 24,000 rounds)
• 8 × CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS (each 2 × 30 mm Gatling AA plus 16 3K87 Kortik SAM)
• 12 × P-700 Granit SSM
• 18 × 8-cell 3K95 Kinzhal SAM VLS (192 vertical launch missiles; 1 missile per 3 seconds)
• RBU-12000 UDAV-1 ASW rocket launchers (60 rockets)


1 of 21 Acc US used in Vietnam war has 72 to 90 aircrafts with heavily air defense system, the thing that the America never forget after Pearl Harbor incident
 
.
It's better if China's growth not affect to others.
good or bad, it simply isnt possible for a new great/super power to rise without affect others in some way.
Despite of not so good long history, recently the relationship between China and Vietnam are friendship for most of the time, during WW2, during Indochina conflict, and officially right now.

We appreciate the friendship growth of China.
i would say the relations right now are...stable

About equipments and training, could you point out when the last real combat China army, air force join ? in Korean war for army ???
last actual war would be vietnam in 79', there have been other incidents in several areas since then but no real war or major combat. but as far as training and equiptment goes, its pretty easy to see the improvement in equiptment, training is still too focus on centralized decision making but this has been changing. and the focus now is clearly on rapid mobilization and transport, hence the effort on transports and full machanization following in the US foot step, this really kicked in after witnessing the cakewalk that the iraqi war was for the US. that said the PLA is still sorely lacking in the number of helicopters and large (stragtegic) transports.

For Vietnam army and air force, they face to face to the biggest until now air force and have many winning before the enemy equipped even much better than China with most advance ACCs in comparing to even Russia. FYI, US navy used at least 2 ACC at the same time against very limited ability Vietnam navy and air force.

the VPAF is no match(at all) for the airforce or china, russia and especially the US. the reason the USN had troubles in vietnam was due to the severe restraints placed on it mostly due to the involvment of the soviet union. the US could have bombed all your airbases and that would be the end of the VPAF, however even just 2 soviet "advisors" present on base meant the US could only combat aircraft once they've taken off from the base and could not bomb the air base itself due to the fear of killing senior soviet personal and sparking a larger, possibly nuclear war, secondly the soviets provided large numbers of up to date(of the era) aircraft and anti-aircraft equitpment which was a match against US machines. this, along with the fact that they could not solve the problem at its roots meant problems of establishing air domination, but even then, the majority of losses was caused by ground based AA guns/missile rather than enemy fighters(also because the soviets would tell the VPAF when the US was coming and from what routes base on their intelligence gathered from the ships near the US carriers, thus allowing the VPAF to set up AAA all over the routes ).

Vietnamese pilots have rich experience in real combat with US pilots well-equipped and they turn to ACE by shot down from 5-9 US aircrafts each pilot.
FYI, North Korean pilots cannot compete the performance of Vietnamese pilots, even Russian pilots can't.
leaving NK aside, during the vietnam war, north vietnam did indeed have over 15 aces, however to say north vietnamese performance would have been better than the soviets themselves is laughable, check out soviet fighter performance during the korean war. these are guys(like the US airmen) with thousands of hours of flying in ww2

At the war time, Vietnam has support from China for anti-aircraft operated by Chinese personnel, but to be frank, it's low performance and many losses for equipment and personnel, can't last for long in a war like Vietnam war.
what are you talking about? china sent, for the most part engineers, who fixed roads and bridges and thus freeing vietnamese personall so that can go fight on the front lines. they did send some anti-air and they performance was respectable(see following link). where are you pulling the "low performance and many losses" statement from?
http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~lorenzo/Jian China Involvement Vietnam.pdf

At this time, Vietnam has very friendship relation with India as I know.
Better if China could know that friendship with most of neighbors is better than to be the enemy of everyone.

it takes two to make a relation, that is all

I reminded that in every war, Vietnam consider the success of their defence is winning.
so the target is difference from China's target. China consider the more occupation is the win.
So you all know that should not attack Vietnam and occupy our land and sea, we make no damage to anyone unless we are under attacked.

vietnam is not capable of attacking china or the US or Russia, doing so is sucide. but vietnam on the defensive is different, it has a terrain very advantagous to the defender and its people very tough and independent. that said, china does not want to occupy vietnam, in any fighting resulting from the island disputes would see combat on the seas and tension but not actual war on land. and on the seas vietnam has ZERO defender advantage, in fact it has zero advantages of any kind vis-a-vis PLAN, Vietnamese Navy will lose, simple as that.

I read that Liaoning has sacrifice of long range air-defense for bringing more aircrafts.
Is it right? Why ? Is it true that Liaoning would never use in real combat so they use it as demonstration and practice site? and never thinking about the chance of its survival under attacks?
PLAN wants to use Liaoning as a real carrier rather than a heavy crusier/carrier mix, being a real carrier, its anti-air and anti-ship capabilities lies in its fighter bombers(j-15, future j-31) and its escort fleet(a fleet consisting of 054A, 052C/D, 095 ssn would make it the most powerful CBG otuside of the USN). and Liaoning is indeed a practice/test carrier, to set up procedures and protocols for future "real" carriers, this does not mean its not operational(once fully comissioned with j-15), it just means it'll spend much more time training new sailors rather than conduction patrols or anything of that sort.

Vietnam has small quantity of aircraft so they would not put their aircrafts at risk in a carrier like Liaoning ... how about a Boom and 54 aircraft sunk together with Liaoning ..
again, in any possible war in the medium term, Liaoning will not be used, especially in the near regions where the PLAAF can already provide air cover. and i dont think you realize just how protected a real carrier is, if the carrier is there they are pretty confident no enemy can get a shot at it.


1 of 21 Acc US used in Vietnam war has 72 to 90 aircrafts with heavily air defense system, the thing that the America never forget after Pearl Harbor incident
the USN carriers have more planes, but the actual carrier itself is just as defenceless as Liaoning is, like i said that job is given to the planes and escorts, and those are some very powerful planes and very powerful escorts
 
.
good or bad, it simply isnt possible for a new great/super power to rise without affect others in some way.

the VPAF is no match(at all) for the airforce or china, russia and especially the US. the reason the USN had troubles in vietnam was due to the severe restraints placed on it mostly due to the involvment of the soviet union. the US could have bombed all your airbases and that would be the end of the VPAF, however even just 2 soviet "advisors" present on base meant the US could only combat aircraft once they've taken off from the base and could not bomb the air base itself due to the fear of killing senior soviet personal and sparking a larger, possibly nuclear war, secondly the soviets provided large numbers of up to date(of the era) aircraft and anti-aircraft equitpment which was a match against US machines. this, along with the fact that they could not solve the problem at its roots meant problems of establishing air domination, but even then, the majority of losses was caused by ground based AA guns/missile rather than enemy fighters(also because the soviets would tell the VPAF when the US was coming and from what routes base on their intelligence gathered from the ships near the US carriers, thus allowing the VPAF to set up AAA all over the routes ).

We may had need more Chinese and Soviet union advisors to reduce our damages of infrastructure, civils ... you said a joke for 2 Soviet union advisor presence. In the era, if I tracked the route of new campaign of US airforce and tell you, could you have enough time to arrange a battlefield alongside of the route ?
Actually, you just have enough time to scatter your civilians. And why Kham Thien with hundreds of men and women have been killed?

PLAN wants to use Liaoning as a real carrier rather than a heavy crusier/carrier mix, being a real carrier, its anti-air and anti-ship capabilities lies in its fighter bombers(j-15, future j-31) and its escort fleet(a fleet consisting of 054A, 052C/D, 095 ssn would make it the most powerful CBG otuside of the USN). and Liaoning is indeed a practice/test carrier, to set up procedures and protocols for future "real" carriers, this does not mean its not operational(once fully comissioned with j-15), it just means it'll spend much more time training new sailors rather than conduction patrols or anything of that sort.


again, in any possible war in the medium term, Liaoning will not be used, especially in the near regions where the PLAAF can already provide air cover. and i dont think you realize just how protected a real carrier is, if the carrier is there they are pretty confident no enemy can get a shot at it.



the USN carriers have more planes, but the actual carrier itself is just as defenceless as Liaoning is, like i said that job is given to the planes and escorts, and those are some very powerful planes and very powerful escorts

About the carrier, China said we make it ourselve without care about costs and time to have our aircrafts could landing and take off from Liaoning.
Look at Vikramaditya development chart, we could say "China has no friend, while India has enough".
China need Russia, but it could not buy the carrier and supports from Russia, while India could .. and their aircrafts on Vikramaditya would come into the mission very early ... while we not sure about Liaoning ///
 
.
Vikrmaditya will have deadlier defence systems, Chinese SAMs and A2a missiles are of low quality. Vikra will be fitted with plenty of neat Israeli sensors which have an edge over the Chinese AC. It was only a few months ago China had its first landing on a carrier while IN has operated carriers during war-time. Besides the Chiense have Brahmos to worry about and with all key ships in India now being armed with Brahmos PLAN has no real chance in a sustained fight. Their arsenal of Subsonic missiles are easy targets for Baraks and AK-630s. Brahmos outranges anything they have and sadly for PLAN, its velocities and extremely low level flight + highly manuverable trajectory means PLAN's key ships won't last beyond a week. The only area PLAN has an advantage is the Sub fleet. However, P-8Is and heavy anti sub nature of IN's new ships should ensure a fair/ tough fight.

As for raising stakes to nuclear game well then China and India loose.

Maleesh, thumbi, I see why Srilanka is keen on being promiscous to both Pak and China. On the long run however, tis better for your country to align with India. With a massive population still rising and democratic market dynamics, India is bound to be the world's larget economy (will take time to get there but will happen) with the highest population. With such an immense demographic, you loose by being hostile.

It's silly to be underestimating the IN or its experience. Ask the PN for their loses during the last wars.
 
.
Vikrmaditya will have deadlier defence systems, Chinese SAMs and A2a missiles are of low quality. Vikra will be fitted with plenty of neat Israeli sensors which have an edge over the Chinese AC. It was only a few months ago China had its first landing on a carrier while IN has operated carriers during war-time. Besides the Chiense have Brahmos to worry about and with all key ships in India now being armed with Brahmos PLAN has no real chance in a sustained fight. Their arsenal of Subsonic missiles are easy targets for Baraks and AK-630s. Brahmos outranges anything they have and sadly for PLAN, its velocities and extremely low level flight + highly manuverable trajectory means PLAN's key ships won't last beyond a week. The only area PLAN has an advantage is the Sub fleet. However, P-8Is and heavy anti sub nature of IN's new ships should ensure a fair/ tough fight.

As for raising stakes to nuclear game well then China and India loose.

Maleesh, thumbi, I see why Srilanka is keen on being promiscous to both Pak and China. On the long run however, tis better for your country to align with India. With a massive population still rising and democratic market dynamics, India is bound to be the world's larget economy (will take time to get there but will happen) with the highest population. With such an immense demographic, you loose by being hostile.

It's silly to be underestimating the IN or its experience. Ask the PN for their loses during the last wars.

So much of your garbage post. By your comment , US CVN shall also be garbage compare to Vikrmaditya? Self delusion Indian.
Carrier travel in formation and are escort by air defense escort. They do not go out and fight alone. CV Liaoning latest CWIS is capable of taking out Mach 4 antiship missile. As for air defense missile. PLAN has Type052C destroyer providing long range air defense.

A good carrier needs to be big and fast , so that it can launch many aircraft quickly. Vikrmaditya is handicapped by its small deck and can only launch 2 aircraft simultaneously while CV Liaoning can launched 3.

And CV-liaoning has already training with its own men and having our own pilot handling the J-15 for take off and landing. While Vikrmaditya which recently goes on sea trial still has the Mig-29K handling onboard by Russian pilots and not Indian personnel.
 
.
So much of your garbage post. By your comment , US CVN shall also be garbage compare to Vikrmaditya? Self delusion Indian.
Carrier travel in formation and are escort by air defense escort. They do not go out and fight alone. CV Liaoning latest CWIS is capable of taking out Mach 4 antiship missile. As for air defense missile. PLAN has Type052C destroyer providing long range air defense.

A good carrier needs to be big and fast , so that it can launch many aircraft quickly. Vikrmaditya is handicapped by its small deck and can only launch 2 aircraft simultaneously while CV Liaoning can launched 3.

And CV-liaoning has already training with its own men and having our own pilot handling the J-15 for take off and landing. While Vikrmaditya which recently goes on sea trial still has the Mig-29K handling onboard by Russian pilots and not Indian personnel.

"A recent Chinese TV report on Liaoning reported that following studies and testing, H/PJ-14 is able to intercept incoming anti-ship missiles up to a speed of Mach 4 with a 96% success rate."

The H/PJ-14 (Type 1130) CIWS is reported to have rate of fire close to 10,000 rounds per minute

The firing rate is impressive. and firing range of 290km

Above quoted from Chinese defense forum, as many self stated from Chinese like "Chinese weapon better, or at least equal Russian, US weapon ..." Could you show off the test? Why not just test by launch a Chinese subsonic missile directly to Liaoning ?

Be mentioned that the quote talked about CIWS that Chinese improved from Russian AK630 gun with limited range ( ie 3000 meters ) but the report also stated its range is 290km ( like a supersonic Brahmos missile ?)

I believe that the self defense system of Liaoning ( also with type 052C ) could not stand the attacks from Indian submarines using Brahmos missiles with Mach 2.8 and later Mach 5
Vietnam has a big support from India for training our sub-crew and we are going to have our own submarine fleet from Russia too.
Hope that Vietnam could get the Brahmos - submarine and air-launch version very soon
 
.
It's silly to be underestimating the IN or its experience. Ask the PN for their loses during the last wars.
india out gunned pakistan in every war by 1:5..so thats not a good feat to thump your chests
but we have to also see that PLAAN out guns IN by 5:1 if we count the frigates, destroyers and subs
 
.
Above quoted from Chinese defense forum, as many self stated from Chinese like "Chinese weapon better, or at least equal Russian, US weapon ..." Could you show off the test? Why not just test by launch a Chinese subsonic missile directly to Liaoning ?

Be mentioned that the quote talked about CIWS that Chinese improved from Russian AK630 gun with limited range ( ie 3000 meters ) but the report also stated its range is 290km ( like a supersonic Brahmos missile ?)

I believe that the self defense system of Liaoning ( also with type 052C ) could not stand the attacks from Indian submarines using Brahmos missiles with Mach 2.8 and later Mach 5
Vietnam has a big support from India for training our sub-crew and we are going to have our own submarine fleet from Russia too.
Hope that Vietnam could get the Brahmos - submarine and air-launch version very soon

You shall go and get your eye check... The one install onboard Liaoning is not even resemble AK630... So much of your garbage comment.

Type1130 CWIS
qZlZNjw.jpg


Russian AK630
ak630.jpg


Are you so jealous of Chinese able to produced their own CWIS that the only thing you can do is to malign it as copy? :lol:
 
.
Above quoted from Chinese defense forum, as many self stated from Chinese like "Chinese weapon better, or at least equal Russian, US weapon ..." Could you show off the test? Why not just test by launch a Chinese subsonic missile directly to Liaoning ?

Be mentioned that the quote talked about CIWS that Chinese improved from Russian AK630 gun with limited range ( ie 3000 meters ) but the report also stated its range is 290km ( like a supersonic Brahmos missile ?)

I believe that the self defense system of Liaoning ( also with type 052C ) could not stand the attacks from Indian submarines using Brahmos missiles with Mach 2.8 and later Mach 5
Vietnam has a big support from India for training our sub-crew and we are going to have our own submarine fleet from Russia too.
Hope that Vietnam could get the Brahmos - submarine and air-launch version very soon

Man u don't even need brahmos.The klubs from your kilos are a deadly threat to any CBG.
Navy Lacks Plan to Defend Against `Sizzler' Missile (Update1) - Bloomberg
Even USN not sure about defeating KLUB atm with AEGIS,delusional chinese fanboys think a s-300 copy and a goalkeeper ciws copy is going to do this.Add to that ur land based yakhont which is the original version of brahmos and that china has NO naval tradition and ZERO ASW experience.The biggest carrier killer is the diesel submarine.
 
.
Man u don't even need brahmos.The klubs from your kilos are a deadly threat to any CBG.
Navy Lacks Plan to Defend Against `Sizzler' Missile (Update1) - Bloomberg
Even USN not sure about defeating KLUB atm with AEGIS,delusional chinese fanboys think a s-300 copy and a goalkeeper ciws copy is going to do this.Add to that ur land based yakhont which is the original version of brahmos and that china has NO naval tradition and ZERO ASW experience.The biggest carrier killer is the diesel submarine.

Delusion is with you. Type1130 is not even copy of goalkeeper. It's performance has even surpassed it. 11000rounds per minute. From chief designer that admit, it has tested against Mach 4 drone. You Indian properly can't accept Chinese advancement due to your impotent.

Then may I know what Indian CWIS can made besides using money to buy? None. :lol:
 
.
Delusion is with you. Type1130 is not even copy of goalkeeper. It's performance has even surpassed it. 11000rounds per minute. From chief designer that admit, it has tested against Mach 4 drone. You Indian properly can't accept Chinese advancement due to your impotent.

Then may I know what Indian CWIS can made besides using money to buy? None. :lol:

If u count on CIWS to shoot down supersonic missiles its u who is delusional.CIWS is last ditch 'hope for the best' type defence.Even corvettes and fast attack boats have CIWS,does that make them immune to ASCM?Lol,no.
 
.
If u count on CIWS to shoot down supersonic missiles its u who is delusional.CIWS is last ditch 'hope for the best' type defence.Even corvettes and fast attack boats have CIWS,does that make them immune to ASCM?Lol,no.

Since like you have not much knowledge on Chinese CWIS. Type1130 are complex with huge system underneath the deck that only the new huge hull of Type055 and CV is able to mount it. For your info, even the new Type052D destroyer despite being new still stuck with the old Type730 CWIS due to its limited hull size. Can corvetter and fast attack craft mount it? Of cos, no.

Type 1130 are latest Chinese state of art CWIS using powerful sensor and armed with 11 rotating barrels, consuming 11,000 rounds per minute. You can imagine the need to house a massive ammunition drum below deck in order to feed the high consuming rate of fire to create an impenetrable wall against supersonic missile.

Of cos, its a last ditch effort to block attacking missile. But a highly effective one too,during the trial test. It has a intercepting rate of 98% against Mach 4 incoming missile.
 
.
Since like you have not much knowledge on Chinese CWIS. Type1130 are complex with huge system underneath the deck that only the new huge hull of Type055 and CV is able to mount it. For your info, even the new Type052D destroyer despite being new still stuck with the old Type730 CWIS due to its limited hull size. Can corvetter and fast attack craft mount it? Of cos, no.

Type 1130 are latest Chinese state of art CWIS using powerful sensor and armed with 11 rotating barrels, consuming 11,000 rounds per minute. You can imagine the need to house a massive ammunition drum below deck in order to feed the high consuming rate of fire to create an impenetrable wall against supersonic missile.

Of cos, its a last ditch effort to block attacking missile. But a highly effective one too,during the trial test. It has a intercepting rate of 98% against Mach 4 incoming missile.

This is nothing new, IN Kashtan-M CIWS guns have ROF of 10000 RPM,while goalkeeper has low 4200.
KP is not as great as u think kashtan has KP of .99.Does that mean u could defend any ship with a few kashtans?Lol NO.
KASHTAN-M is still superior system as it uses combination of gun and point defence missile system which is more effective than just gun.
 
.
A piece of cr@p :lol:

Sri Lankan navy, Airforce and Army is a joke - you have been seeing cr@p your whole life.

I guess u r little too harsh on him. Sl is way smaller country, u can no way compare their fire power with ours.... smaller than most of our states man!
*peace*

plus acc to his earlier post,I think he is a gud guy,not a troller.
@Maleesh
let's get back to the topic,
yes ur assumtion is right ,China's carrier edge in terms of numbers. but owing to latest tech vikramaditiya may have d edge too. nothing can be said ,let a super computer simulate the fight:)

A piece of cr@p :lol:

Sri Lankan navy, Airforce and Army is a joke - you have been seeing cr@p your whole life.

I guess u r little too harsh on him. Sl is way smaller country, u can no way compare their fire power with ours.... smaller than most of our states man!
*peace*

plus acc to his earlier post,I think he is a gud guy,not a troller.
@Maleesh
let's get back to the topic,
yes ur assumtion is right ,China's carrier edge in terms of numbers. but owing to latest tech vikramaditiya may have d edge too. nothing can be said ,let a super computer simulate the fight:)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom