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Air Superiority fighters comparision and requirement analysis.

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Transport? F-16 A/B shot down Su-22s, MiG-23s, Su-25, which one is transport? And By the one kill was scored from cannon fire.:flame:

Is the AN-26 not a transport? There was also reports that some of the downed aircraft were helicopters.
 
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well thats why PAF not going for more planes they know thatn knock out any indian intruder but still their is probleum india bought from israel radar killer UAV what will be the answer of pakistan of harpy uav
 
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A proven air-combat aircraft of the day, the F-16, against ground attack aircraft Su-22, MiG-23 and Su-25 which are NOT dogfighters! Yup makes perfect sense!

It IS perfect sense.

Unless you're suggesting that you should use a ground attack plane to kill another ground attack plane.....:hitwall:
 
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It IS perfect sense.

Unless you're suggesting that you should use a ground attack plane to kill another ground attack plane.....:hitwall:

Of course you use a fighter aircraft to shoot down an enemy whether it be a helicopter or another fighter aircraft, but what Gubbi was implying is that a fighter aircraft vs an attack aircraft or transport aircraft is nothing to brag about.
 
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A proven air-combat aircraft of the day, the F-16, against ground attack aircraft Su-22, MiG-23 and Su-25 which are NOT dogfighters! Yup makes perfect sense!

so that means even f-15s are not combat proven, because they just shot down old a$$ a/c and couple of mig 29s with AIM -7 sparrow!
(sparrow a BVR missile, meaning NO DOGFIGHT!)

i dont kno wats ur definition for "combat proven a/c" but f-16, f-15s etc are all combat proven aircrafts!!! with many kills! whether if its against a ground attack a/c, transport or a dogfighter!
 
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What can F-15 eagle would do if its put against su-30 mki..! I think F-15 has a far more better track record..!
 
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What can F-15 eagle would do if its put against su-30 mki..! I think F-15 has a far more better track record..!

at first it all depends on the missile (BVR), because obviously both fighters dont want to get close to each other, but if BVR missile misses its target then they would probably get in a dog fight. and that is something to watch but its quite hard to determine who's better than the other...because both of them r highly manueverable
 
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Rafale M F1 were pitted against the greeks F-16 b52

On the 4vs4 encounter between CdG Rafale and F16 B52+.

This time the french aircrafts also used the trainning function of Spectra, in mild jamming mode, which were immediately detected from the greek aircrafts ECCM, which reply automatically with no pilot input.

The BVR tactics used by the French didn't impress, while they reported all virtual shots as kills.But without wanting to go into detail, observing the route of the target in relation with the lock on it, keeping time (counting) in relation with the virtual launch, the greek pilots managed to arrive to safe conclusions. This time, the majority of the greek shots were inside the "no escape" envelope of AMRAAM, which gave clear advantage to the greek side. The tactic of using data link, where 2 different radars could lock onto 4 aircrafts, taking advantage of the function that the new aircraft gives, made obvious in practice the advantages of the new F16 version. With special tactics planned by our pilots, in quite some cases, they were approaching unobserved opposite to the french aircrafts, a fact that was shown by their reactions.

The success of the greek aircrafts against the Rafale M was afterwards confirmed by comparing the shot reports of the French with the F16 videos, where it was shown that most shots were of low Pk (kill probability).

As a general conclusion, one may say that any Rafale's superiority, in the above scenarios, is marginal, with high kill percentage for the greek side. Also it should be noted that in that period of time, the CdG was cooperating with a greek EMB-145H Erieye with the aim to evaluate the interoperability of the 2 sides. More in detail Link 11 and Link 16 were tested. From the time of take-off from Elefsis airfield, within 10 minutes the greek aircraft had established contact with the french carrier, certifying capability of cooperation in network-centered operations for both sides.

4 Rafale F2 B, 1 Rafale F2 C.


The recent excercise wasn't the first occasion for a HAF squadron to counter the Rafale. In 2006 the Rafale M from CdG partecipated in excercises with F16block52+ and F4E AUP. But the Rafale M of the time, were F1, a version centered in air-to-air role with somewhat limited capabilities. In the Aegean Gust partecipated Rafale F2, with improved air to air capabilities, including the data link between aircrafts of a formation, combined with FSO and data fusion...

... Both greek and french pilots flew as backseaters in each other planes. As for the engagements:

4 sorties occured in the morning and 3 in the evening of Tuesday in 2 vs 2 scenarios, in BVR. The greek aircrafts were B52+. On Wednesday 8 sorties with Rafale B in 2 waves (morning, evening), with the partecipation of 1 french pilot and 4 greek backseaters. This time it was 4 vs 4. The greek aircrafts were B52+, B50D, B30.
Something that appeared strange to the greek pilots, was that while according to the HAF policy the pilots were doing the last pre-takeoff check of their planes (Leak check), the French pilots were taking position on the runway without doing so.

The impressions of the greek pilots were variable, as is natural , and their observations quite interesting. The whole of the greek F16 pilots, found the cockpit particularly functional, although a bit small, as is used in all french aircrafts. Also, the best impressions left the glass cockpit advanced disposition. It is known that the high operational output of the Rafale is result of high performance, excellent behaviour and friendly MMI that adopts to the high workload in multirole missions. The existance of so many displays and the characteristical absense of analog instruments, was natural to make a big impression to the greek pilots, who apart the Falcon's MFDs, are used to analog instruments. Some in fact, told us that they would feel more comfortable, if some analog instruments have been kept as backups in cases of malfunction or failiure of the electric system. Of course it is certain that safety valves has been thought, while evolution indicates that full glass cockpit will dominate in the future, as will happen in the case of F35 too.

It is also natural to be impressed by the high situation awareness provided by the Rafale thanks to data fusion. The Rafale, as the greek pilots had the chance to see, can receive tracking data from RBE2, Spectra, OSF, IFF, MICA IR sensors and accompanying aircrafts, ground command and control facilities and AWACS, elaborate them and produce system tracking data (system tracks). These are superior to quality compared to the single data of the individual sensors. This data is then used for fire control and is shown in the central tactical display and can be transmitted to fellow aircrafts. So, at a glance at the tactical display, the pilots can see the position of targets that may be inside the radar cone or outside and even in the rear hemisphere, no matter if the radar is on or off!

Also, it was verified that OSF provides advantage in air combat. As the greek pilots observed, once the target is locked from the radar, its image is then displayed in the central display which facilitates very much the target identification even in great distances.A similar function is provided in the F16 by the Lantirn Pod in air to air mode, with the difference that the backseater can make a search independent of the radar. On the contrary on the Rafale, the OSF is primarily slaved on the radar.

The best of impressions left to the greek pilots the performace of the Rafale's self protection suite, confirming the french reputation in the sector since the time that HAF operated the ICMS2000 in the Mirage2000.

Small reprimands were made to some small but important details, like the fact of the abscense of a countdown timer in the HUD when a BVR missile is flying towards its target. The greek F16 pilots are used to such an indicator on the lower left of the HUD, indicating the "Time On Target" of the Amraam and the time remaining until the Amraam's autonomous seeker is activated. If the missile fails tracking, then the indication "Loose" appears over the locked target on the HUD and the pilot is aware that the shot has failed. Something like this wasn't found on the Rafale, leading to a difficulty in the interpretation of the BVR shots during the engagements. And this, because the French were regarding that after a certain range , a MICA shot was always successful. As a result, the arrival to safe conclusions, was problematic.

Beyond that, it was also commented positively the agility of the Rafale. Of course the greek pilots still think of the F16 as a particularly capable aircraft in dogfight.
In the air, the Rafale is very agile, but for the greek pilots the sense of flying was very different from that of the F16. It was commented as perfectly stable, with very good response in all speeds and manouvers. Very good impressions were also left by the automatic pilot as well as the ability of maintaining very low speed during approach, prior to landing.

... The Rafale certainly proved that it is a very capable aircraft in the hands of the excellently trainned french pilots who have battle experience. The encounter with F16s, gave the greek pilots the opportunity to measure the F16 capabilities against a 4th gen aircraft, while it showed yet another time that the level of HAF pilots is one of the best in NATO airforces.

...The greek pilots were called by their french colleagues as quite aggressive ("vicious") in the air and in no way they were easy targets, neither they reminded F16 pilots of other allied nations with which the Rafale had the chance to partecipate in some other excercises.

According to the french pilots, the Rafale prevailed in the air combat. Initially it was mentioned that in the first missions, the capabilities of the MICA missiles weren't correctly estimated by the opposite team. However, both sides made successful "shots" on the opponents.

The impressions of the greek pilots from the Rafale, were concentrated on the very good situatnio awareness , thanks to link 16 and the big touch screens. These were proved to provide very good image even in conditions of intensive sunshine, which often reduces visibility. In general, the cockpit layout, particularly impresses the greek pilots. Particularly interest also had the use of the Spectra, on the use of which, the french base some of their air tactics that have developed.

As far as the availability of the Rafale goes, in the duration of 18 sorties, it was proved high (94%), while only one flight was delayed and in one more there was a minor technical problem during flight.
The International Rafale forum • View topic - Rafale vs F-16
 
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Thank you Antibody !! Very nice article. I will cross post this in the MRCA thread --hope you dont mind.
 
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welll if u ask for best air to air fighter jet history says it has been F 15 most air kills than any fighter jet ever built without single lost in war i know most of time it has been used downgraded Migs but still few times it has faced russian SU 27s which is similar to SU 30 and F 15S is equal to SU 35
 
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Thank you Antibody !! Very nice article. I will cross post this in the MRCA thread --hope you dont mind.

not at all!-- ill try to find more comparisons done by other countries-- perhaps might be less biased
 
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welll if u ask for best air to air fighter jet history says it has been F 15 most air kills than any fighter jet ever built without single lost in war i know most of time it has been used downgraded Migs but still few times it has faced russian SU 27s which is similar to SU 30 and F 15S is equal to SU 35

The F-15 has never faced any SU-27's.
 
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Hello friends, long time....
Interesting stuff....I would be adding in a Paper scenario... criticism, objections, annoying reasons and etc is most welcome.

I will assume a 12 ship strike escorted by 2 pairs and preceded by a pair of sweep VS 2 pairs of CAP and 2 ground ADAs.

Before deciding the type of planes it would be better to go through the actual behavior and trend of both fighter panes and pilots with regard to combat , and also outline the limitations and strength of BVRs and Conventional missiles.

1. BVR has different ranges at different altitude, the higher the better.

2. A non BVR pilot will always want to fight a BVR at the lowest possible altitude.

3. BVR ranges at a particular altitude changes with the Aspect angle of the target.

4. No matter how good a pilot is and how awesome his plane is, no one fights solo in the enemy territory. Every one fights in the formation of 2s. Any one claiming to fight solo is either joking or is on drugs.

5. Every one wants to have his target slightly higher, for a better lock on and shot.

6. A semi active BVR fighter will always try to shoot form the maximum and if that fails he wont come in close combat until he has numerical superiority.

7. If both the parties have the same missiles and AEW&C cover then the one with better AI work and better combat controller will have better chances.

8. It takes 2 pairs of Non BVR fighters to counter 1 pair of BVR fighter.

9. BVR employment is not an easy job...the formation leader has to be a bold guy.

10. When we talk of tactics , well there is not final answer to tactics.....

Deciding the Aircraft..... 12 bombers = 6x mirages and 6x jaguras
Close escorts = 1 pair F-16D , 1 pair Mirage 2000
Sweep 1 pair of Su-30 MKI.....

VS
02 pair of Mig-21-I and 02 pair of F-7p and 2 pair of Mig-29

( will start of 2moro if some one wants to tag along please let me know ):cheers:
 
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