Air collision at South China Sea 2001, pictures!

[Pancho2]

The man's name was Wrong Way for crying out loud!

 

[S10]

It was a combat situation. Still...This has nothing to do with Wang Wei's reckless flying.

You can argue that it had nothing to do with the EP-3 incident, but IA655 demonstrated recklessness is a universal trait.

No spinning here. If it was 'deliberate intent' then it was directed against what the ship's crew believed to be a hostile military aircraft, not against an civilian airliner. By your argument, there is no such thing as 'friendly fire' incidents, no?

Yet other ship in the task force did not identify the civilian airliner as a hostile target. It was one captain's willingness to believe it was a diving target despite its climbing altitude. It was his aggressiveness and failure to check properly that lead to his deliberate order to shoot. On the other hand, Wang Wei was not deliberate in colliding with EP-3, unless you like to imply so.

And where did I even implied that Wang Wei deliberately rammed the American aircraft?

One man's incompetence/foolishness does not justify another man's same.

No it does not, but Americans are not immune from it either.

The reality is that since then the US did not cease recon flights off China and there have been other intercepts...

Hainan Island incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Behind closed doors, the PLAAF got a spanking from the head commie for causing an unnecessary international incident that brought shame upon the Chinese nation. So what if China gained a few technical information from dissecting the EP-3? The US does not rests upon those technical laurels and have used better technologies since then.[/quote]
Whatever naval aviation command stated to their pilots after the incident is pure speculation on you part. So how is American having better technologies since then relevant? Perhaps I should cite that the unit Wang Wei belong to got new planes as well? No, I'm not you.

There is no legitimate comparison between this incident and IranAir 655 because in the latter's case, EVERY navy in the world, including the PLAN, would have sympathy. The word 'sympathy' does not mean they feel 'sorry' for the US Navy but that every navy in the world have studied that disaster and when they take into consideration their inferior technology and lack of combat experience in such hostile and confined naval environment, they silently admitted that they possibly would have done the same.

That is entirely an assumption on your part that everybody in the world would sympathize with American navy in IA655. In fact, I would almost call that a grandiose sense of self worthiness and borderline narcissim. Your notion that everyone else would have done the same is laughable, since not everyone is as incompetent and aggressive as the captain involved. In fact, there were disagreement with Rogers right in his very own task force.

The international aviation community have not been as kind and there is no need to be so kind. Flying is still essentially a solo endeavor, even when there are two qualified pilots in the cockpit there is still only a single 'stick actuator' that commands the aircraft to go which way. There can be no collision from beyond visual range. Absurd notion. All collisions are obviously within visual range and when this international fraternity read that the collision occurred in a quite ideal flying day, they will come down hard on the smaller aircraft and have came down hard on Wang Wei.

The head commie decided that for the gullible Chinese public Wang Wei will be made a 'hero/martyr' while the PLAAF will be privately chastised for failure to exercise strict flight discipline.

Who is this "international community" you speak of? That implies you somehow speak on their behalf, which is definitively not the case. Perhaps you like to argue that you do, which is another sign of narcissistic personality disorder. I have a feeling that several nations would feel that having spy planes peeping around your coastline by Americans bring disgust rather than support. Of course, shooting down an airliner over international waters while only one ship in the task force identified a "threat" is so much better right? Seasame compared to a watermelon when you take into scale, definitely not comparible.

The truly gullible people believe that whatever their action, the world sympathizes with them and hate on the other side.

 

[S10]

The man's name was Wrong Way for crying out loud!

Let me guess, your middle name is Narco and your last name is Retard?

 

[gambit]

You can argue that it had nothing to do with the EP-3 incident, but IA655 demonstrated recklessness is a universal trait.

Right...So the IA655 disaster influenced Wang Wei's behavior many years later.

Yet other ship in the task force did not identify the civilian airliner as a hostile target. It was one captain's willingness to believe it was a diving target despite its climbing altitude. It was his aggressiveness and failure to check properly that lead to his deliberate order to shoot. On the other hand, Wang Wei was not deliberate in colliding with EP-3, unless you like to imply so.

And where did I implied so?

No it does not, but Americans are not immune from it either.

Good...Then we can dismiss IA655 as having any relevancy in this discussion about Wang Wei's reckless flying, which happened many years later.

So how is American having better technologies relevant?

To talk about how the EP-3 briefly in China's hands seemingly equaled out Wang Wei's death from his reckless flying. If so beneficial, then why not do something similar for later recon flights? Yet we have the Chinese government spanked the PLAAF.

That is entirely an assumption on your part that everybody in the world would sympathize with American navy in IA655. In fact, I would almost call that a grandiose sense of self worthiness and borderline narcissim. Your notion that everyone else would have done the same is laughable, since not everyone is as incompetent and aggressive as the captain involved. In fact, there were disagreement with Rogers right in his very own task force.

Disagreement after the fact is always seen as 'correct' whenever it can be conveniently used by the critics.

Who is this "international community" you speak of? That implies you somehow speak on their behalf, which is definitively not the case. Perhaps you like to argue that you do, which is another sign of narcissistic personality disorder. I have a feeling that several nations would feel that having spy planes peeping around your coastline by Americans bring disgust rather than support. Of course, shooting down an airliner over international waters while only one ship in the task force identified a "threat" is so much better right? Seasame compared to a watermelon when you take into scale, definitely not comparible.

The truly gullible people believe that whatever their action, the world sympathizes with them and hate on the other side.

Then show everyone which aviation community side with Wang Wei. Any country would not like the Americans conducting EM recon flights off their coasts, but that does not justify reckless flying by their military pilots. All you have to do is explain why did the PLAAF backed off their interceptions.

 

[S10]

Right...So the IA655 disaster influenced Wang Wei's behavior many years later.

No, but in case an American airliner is shot down by some other in the future, they could argue combat situation and get away with it.

And where did I imply so?

Good, then you agree that it was an unintentional accident. While on the other hand, I can't argue Capt. Rogers accidentally press the launch button.

Good...Then we can dismiss IA655 as having any relevancy in this discussion about Wang Wei's reckless flying, which happened many years later.

Sure, as long as you agree recklessness and incompetence exists in American military as well.

To talk about how the EP-3 briefly in China's hands seemingly equaled out Wang Wei's death from his reckless flying. If so beneficial, then why not do something similar for later recon flights? Yet we have the Chinese government spanked the PLAAF.

Where did I state that obtaining a EP-3 is worth losing a pilot for? Did you invent that one again? Oh and show me a source where the government supposely "spanked" the naval aviation. You're big on sources, so provide them for your argument. Onus is on you.

Disagreement after the fact is always seen as 'correct' whenever it can be conveniently used by the critics.

Perhaps you like to argue Capt. Rogers was correct in shooting down an airliner with 290 civilians aboard over international waters. I'm interested.

Then show everyone which aviation community side with Wang Wei. Any country would not like the Americans conducting EM recon flights off their coasts, but that does not justify reckless flying by their military pilots. All you have to do is explain why did the PLAAF backed off their interceptions.

It was you that claimed everyone sympathized with Americans in IA655 and chasitised the Chinese in the EP-3 incident. Somehow you want me to provide sources when I doubted while your claims are to be taken as they were? Laughable. As for the reason why PLAN is more conservative in its approach, I don't know. I don't get their internal memos and neither do you. Everything else is speculation.

 

[gambit]

No, but in case an American airliner is shot down by some other in the future, they could argue combat situation and get away with it.

Absolutely they could try. A combatant called Osama bin Laden did one better. He attacked an American city. Then two ME countries felled and finally bin Laden himself killed. Anyone can declare 'war' on US.

Good, then you agree that it was an unintentional accident.

Never said it was otherwise. However, Wang Wei's reckless flying caused the collision.

While on the other hand, I can't argue Capt. Rogers accidentally press the launch button.

Of course not, but IA655 was a case of mistaken identity. Wang Wei had no such excuse.

Sure, as long as you agree recklessness and incompetence exists in American military as well.

Sure.

Where did I state that obtaining a EP-3 is worth losing a pilot for? Did you invent that one again? Oh and show me a source where the government supposely "spanked" the naval aviation. You're big on sources, so provide them for your argument. Onus is on you.

Not YOU. But the rest of the Chinese boys pretty much said so. As for the PLA got spanked, why would China put that event in public? But there is no need to do much to reasonably infer that was the case. Again...The US have never stopped those recon flights, so why no more collisions since then?

Perhaps you like to argue Capt. Rogers was correct in shooting down an airliner with 290 civilians aboard over international waters. I'm interested.

No...It was not correct...But like I said, IA655 is irrelevant to Wang Wei's flying.

It was you that claimed everyone sympathized with Americans in IA655 and chasitised the Chinese in the EP-3 incident. Somehow you want me to provide sources when I doubted while your claims are to be taken as they were? Laughable. As for the reason why PLAN is more conservative in its approach, I don't know. I don't get their internal memos and neither do you. Everything else is speculation.

You did not understand the proper context of the word 'sympathy' here. Am not surprised.

All so far has proved to be feeble in the attempt to salvage Wang Wei's reputation.

 

[S10]

Absolutely they could try. A combatant called Osama bin Laden did one better. He attacked an American city. Then two ME countries felled and finally bin Laden himself killed. Anyone can declare 'war' on US.

A single combatant was able to draw United States into two wars each costing over a trillion. Several thousand American troops while tens of thousands are wounded/disabled, not to mention damage to property. Hundreds of thousands of civilians killed or wounded while millions are displaced. Yep, victory for United States.

Never said it was otherwise. However, Wang Wei's reckless flying caused the collision.

That's one side's claim.

Of course not, but IA655 was a case of mistaken identity. Wang Wei had no such excuse.

Mistaken identity caused by aggressiveness and poor judgement leading to hundreds being killed. A mistaken identity not shared by other captains in task force.

Not YOU. But the rest of the Chinese boys pretty much said so. As for the PLA got spanked, why would China put that event in public? But there is no need to do much to reasonably infer that was the case. Again...The US have never stopped those recon flights, so why no more collisions since then?

I still like to see who said losing a pilot was worth the EP-3. Since you claimed that naval aviation pilots were spanked for the incident, I asked for a source. Since you can't provide one, I'll leave your claim as it is worth. Americans have been flying recon flights along the Chinese coast for decades even prior to the incident. Can I infer they were also less aggressive then?

No...It was not correct...But like I said, IA655 is irrelevant to Wang Wei's flying.

Certainly, but if PLAAF is guilty of being reckless, that trait certainly isn't unique.

You did not understand the proper context of the word 'sympathy' here. Am not surprised.

All so far has proved to be feeble in the attempt to salvage Wang Wei's reputation.

Oh I get it perfectly well. You're saying other navies know they might have acted the same given the circumstances, but it's still an assumption on your part.

Wang Wei's death, while it can be argued as unneccessary, occured in the line of duty. There is no need to salvage anything. China was not flying recon flights along American coast. It was the other way around. Guess who is seen as the intruder?

 

[gambit]

That's one side's claim.

And a very valid one. Ever had control of an aircraft?

I still like to see who said losing a pilot was worth the EP-3.

As you asked...

Wrong. He is a hero. Because of his competence and professionalism he did not fire at the plane, making it go 'poof' and killing all the spies onboard.
Instead he forced it to land. China then got to inspect the plane and take it apart into tiny little pieces depsite pentagon warning for not boarding the plane.

That is up for debate. One can also argue that he was heroic and chose the right way to force the spy plane to land. Sacrificed himself rather than killing the equipment and all the spies onboard.

You can say he was foolish. There are others who will still say he was gutsy and forced it to land. It doesn't matter about the American claims of the situations are.

No one needs to be a pilot to know that what he did was probably intentional to an extent. Minus the getting killed part. Regardless of how you paint it, there are still plenty who view him as a brave hero who died serving the country.

Next...You are going to cry that no one said 'worth'...

Since you claimed that naval aviation pilots were spanked for the incident, I asked for a source. Since you can't provide one, I'll leave your claim as it is worth.

We do not need an official statement from the Chinese government to that effect. But since you have never served in the military, I would not expect you to understand how those of us who have can infer these things.

Americans have been flying recon flights along the Chinese coast for decades even prior to the incident. Can I infer they were also less aggressive then?

You may...But even if the PLAAF were less aggressive flyers in past interceptions, that does not excuse Wang Wei's flying.

Wang Wei's death, while it can be argued as unneccessary, occured in the line of duty. There is no need to salvage anything. China was not flying recon flights along American coast. It was the other way around. Guess who is seen as the intruder?

I take it you missed the parts where Soviet 'fishing trawlers' were seen off US coasts and Soviet Bear bombers off Alaska? Of course we did see them as intruders, but we were never as reckless as Wang Wei were.

 

[S10]

And a very valid one. Ever had control of an aircraft?

Valid would be backed up by visual evidence. Since none of us are present at the time, it is at best speculation.

As you asked...


Next...You are going to cry that no one said 'worth'...

You said "rest of us Chinese boys pretty much said so". If one person could represent all "Chinese boys" here, am I correct to assume you could represent everybody from Vietnam? If so, that's a sad country indeed.

We do not need an official statement from the Chinese government to that effect. But since you have never served in the military, I would not expect you to understand how those of us who have can infer these things.

So you speculated without basis and reverted to "you never served in military" rant. Am I also correct to speculate you grow weed like many of your fellow Vietnamese? It's obvious you have never worked in criminal justice, I would not expect you to understand how I can infer these things.

See how that works?

You may...But even if the PLAAF were less aggressive flyers in past interceptions, that does not excuse Wang Wei's flying.

If Wang Wei was indeed reckless with his flying, then no. However, whether it was indeed the case is up for debate.

I take it you missed the parts where Soviet 'fishing trawlers' were seen off US coasts and Soviet Bear bombers off Alaska? Of course we did see them as intruders, but we were never as reckless as Wang Wei were.

No no, I took that into account, along with IA655.