Air Cdre Azam Khan - The man who got injured defending Kamra Base

[notorious_eagle]

I have been told that he Air Cdre Azam Khan been recommended for early retirement.

 

[Jango]

I have been told that he Air Cdre Azam Khan been recommended for early retirement.

This came on the news around a week or more back.

Early retirement, with some post-retirement benefits taken off or something like that.

 

[Donatello]

Air Cdre Azam Khan..........Drama Queen.

 

[Xeric]

Hi,

Absolutely incorrect and a very bad analysis----. You cannot keep protecting the blunders and safeguarding poor thinking.

The base commander is not only a commander but he is the commander in chief of the air base---he is the leader---he is the person in charge---his place is only and only in the command room---.

It is an absolutely misleading statement that he joined the action after taking all actions that he needed to----. If such was the case---he did not have to join---the actions that he would have taken would have neutralized the enemy strike force of 8 within a very short time.

Pakistani military needs to stop misleading the civilians---what if there was a strike force waiting a 3'o clock or at 6'o clock or in any other position and waiting for a full engagement at one side and then making their move from the flanks---or from behind.

The general needs to learn that he is not a foot soldier any more----that he is not a peon---he needs to learn to designate authority---give directions and then wait for them to be implemented----he is a task master---he is the MAESTRO---his job is to direct the orchestra---not to toot his own horn.

If this is the mindset of of pak military in how to operate in such a minor confilct but with monumentuous results---this military is absolutely ill trained and ill advised.

Next time the recommendation would be for the Air chief Marshall to jump in the JF17 and take out the su30---.

The truth is very simple----the participation of the general in this small conflict shows the defences were ill equipped to take on the enemy strike---if there would have been enough security personal available to take on the threat---there would have been no room for the general to get to see the action---and then being shot three time in the arm---.

As i have stated many a times here---proof is in the pudding---the statements are that Sipahi Asif gave them 10 minutes time---even if it was 3 to 5 minutes time---that time is like eons in combat when an enemy force first strikes and you are running to pickup your weapons----.

There are only 8 terrorists and with the first onslaught of aggression in the first few moments it becomes clear from the enemy firepower how many are involved.

This scenario as being shown ( meaning the reaction of the base commander ) is not believable at all---it simply defies common sense---.

There is no comparison of a brigade commander on the battlefield in the middle of a war involved in fighting to this scenarion of a fixed operations air force base being struck at from insurgents---and that even a very small number.

If such were the procedures---then they are an extremely poorly mandated procedures---. Then updated proceduresmust be constituted and implemented by the military---. A general officer cannot be seen swinging the sword into the middle of the action---it happened in medievel times----and when it did---it was of last resort---.

In this minor skirmish---there was no place for the general to pickup arms---. It shows that either the general had no trust in his troops---or the troops were ill prepared and not capable at all.

Why do you need 'gods' to come and do the fighting when the puny little angels can do the job---it only happens in case of failures---when 'god's have forgotten to take care of the issues beforehand.

Dirt cannot be hidden under the rug any more.

MK, i am sorry to say that with this post of your you just showed me how shallow your knowledge about (real) combat is.

i think either you have not read my previous post where i have tried to explain both the relation and the difference between a planned military action (let's say corps level attack) and an impromptu one or you have totally misunderstood it.

Generals or brigadiers dont participate in fights when they are commanding corps, division or brigades, but there have been example in the past when their own Tac HQ was raided and the jernal saab was himself found shooting his Smith and Wesson.

Now after drawing this analogy the question may arise that why in the first place did the tac HQ (or the base in this case) was raided/attacked. A fair question, but that's not what i am discussing here (we can have separate debate on that too). What we are discussing is that why did the senior most commander himself was participating in the fight.

So, as i have explained earlier that it was not like that everyone on the base was sleeping, playing cards or watching movies and all of a sudden they were surrounded by the terrorist. Rather as a matter of fact an intelligence report regarding an impending attack on this VERY base was known to all and was also published in the news.

So what did you think those on the base had done regarding this info? Slept over it or would they have prepared themselves further? If you think it is the former than i cant discuss anything with you, but if you say that they must have been prepared than why is it so difficult for you guys to understand that the response was a pre-planned one?

As i have said earlier, and i'll explain further that when the first bullet was fired the contingency planning unfolded itself and all the tiers started reacting accordingly. Fortunately, the first line of defence did it work and the attackers were not allowed any foothold as was the case at Mehran Base where they succeeded in breaching the parameter well before any (meaningful) reaction could have been taken. But this time partially because of the lessons from Mehran Base (the point that we dont learn from our past just died) and because we reacted to the provided intelligence thus preparing ourselves for this kind of possibility, the attackers were not allowed any meaningful headway at the very onset of the attack - this turned out to be the turning point in our favor.

Terrorists rely mainly on surprise as they can chose the place, time and method of attack and it is by virtue of this surprise and shock action that they are able to do more damage initially. You must have seen that in every terrorist action the maximum damage is done in the first few minutes, even at Mehran Base the Orions were damaged just when the attack was initiated and not when they had taken hostages.

So the thing is that by barring the terrorist any initial success the defenders of the base were able to win half of the battle well before it had actually taken place. So now the issue was, should the defenders follow their contingencies and thus allow the terrorists respite so that they can also 're-plan' and re-think their next actions while the defenders also do the same (the base commander assessing the situation in detail, giving the new amended orders and disposing off troops accordingly etc etc) or should they "REINFORCE THE SUCCESS" by taking the battle to the attackers and destroying them before they could "reorganize"?

Before proceeding further i must explain these two term; REINFORCING THE SUCCESS and Reorganize:-

As a function of common sense and as per the basic understanding of tactics, it is always advisable to "exploit" (another military term which would require pages and pages to explain) an unexpected breakthrough or success rather than waiting was the original plan to unfold and then see if it succeeds or not. Also, as per the basic teachings it is better to strike again if the enemy is off balanced and exhausted despite the fact that one may not have sufficient strength to undertake such an action/strike. But then if still one is able to do it, it would sure pay rich dividends.

Example;

It is a must to counter-attack (refer defence by a company or battalion on the border) before the attacker has culminated its attack and is in the process of reorganizing and consolidating (another military term) rather than allowing him to bring in his administrative echelons (to include heavy weapons, reserve ammo, food etc) and consolidating his newly acquired position. As he is more vulnerable just before the culmination of attack as by then:

-he has depleted his strength (he no more enjoys a superior strength ratio)

-is in the open and 'new' to the area

-is short of ammo etc

-is exhausted

-and the defender can meet enemy's strength despite suffering casualties (he was defending from dug in positions Vs enemy attacking in the open)

So the counter attack must go before the enemy gains respite or alternatively, if the defender is delayed in response (counter attack), he then must not counter attack as by then the attacker would be dugged in the new position with his reserve supplies and heavy weapons which he couldnt carry during attack arruved and it would be you who would be in open, and thus the defender then instead of counter attacking should again take up defence a bit to the rear of the original position (thus losing ground).

Real example;

In 1965, some Baloch Regiment was able to repulse a brigade plus indian attack as the CO of the unit counter attacked with sweepers, batmen, cooks, barbars and very few soldiers (without waiting for reinforcements/gathering troops) just in time when the attacking enemy who had taken over lot of ground was still reorganizing i.e. no respite was given to the attacker and was hit when he was the most vulnerable.

So, back to the question, should the base commander had allowed the attackers, after they had been unsuccessful in their initial assault (i.e. where they had expected to do the max damage), to reorganize (look for other avenues /alternatives to do more damage) by locking himself up in his operations room, wasting precious time in 'understanding' the situation, and issuing instructions as per the book/their contingency plan, or should he kicked their ***** after having quickly assessing/confirming that yes he had retarded enemy's initial assault so he must now "exploit" the situation and take the battle to them?

Now ofcourse there is always an element of risk, but as Gubbi and i had already discussed, it is an quality of any commander to take calculated risks (which in turn come from experience and knowledge) and be sure what his action can result into.

So, as evident from the (correct) actions of the base commander, the risk (initiative) that he took was well calculated and thus he was successful.

The max you guys can blame him is for taking the matters in his hands and exercising ingenuity and adopting an unorthodox approach. BTW, i was just going through an American publication on RMA (Revolution in Military Affairs) by Lt Gen Paul Van Riper of the USMC and Maj Gen Robert H Scales Jr of the US Army, where the writers were emphasizing that no amount of technology and advancement in weapons can serve as a 'Silver Bullet' for an army and warned policy-makers of the perils of succumbing to ‘promises of high-tech, bloodless victory’ because “Political limitation, friction, and fog are not artefacts of history, but rather conditions embedded in the fabric of war. To suppose that technology could eliminate them from the battlefield thus flies in the face of the natural world as it is”.

Instead...​

....2500 years of history confirm that ambiguity, miscalculation, incompetence, and above all chance will continue to dominate the conduct of war. In the end, the incalculables of determination, morale, fighting skill, and leadership far more than technology will determine who wins and who loses”.

and​

Innovation and unexpected action by the commander is an immeasurable asset which promises success to any commander.


So as mentioned earlier in my previous posts, whenever a commander desires to take an innovative/unexpected approach while he is amidst a battle (in this case instead of opening computers he decided to go in with bayonets), the commander has to set a personal example and has to lead so that his followers does not lose faith in his actions, and that's exactly what the base commander did!

Now those of you who are probably thinking that the base commander had to pick up a weapon because was sleeping in his bunk and the next thing he knew was being surrounded by Khan Lala, so he just followed his intuitions and guts and opened fired on anything moved and just because he was such a lucky SOB that everything action he took just automatically met success, should remove their Screw-Pak-Armed-Forces glasses once in a while!

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,

Again---a very poorly researched response to what I stated. Your post has nothing ot do regarding the situation at kamra---.

Only foolish and stupid generals risk their lives when there is no risk to be taken---and there are no stupid and foolish generals---unless!!!

This general knew he had failed miserably---to save his face he did what he did---it is obvious as sunshine on a bright sunny day---. You cannot keep putting a spin on this issue and expect the pakistanis to believe in it as well.

Plain and simple---generals do not pick up weapons like ordinary souls until and unless the situaton is close to getting out of control---or they had failed to understand the simple and obvious ground realities---and now he compensate his errors by jumping into the fray and getting shot three times.

 

[Xeric]

First of all he was not a general, one stars in our case are not considered Generals.

Second, it is shocking that you consider the Air Cdre did what he had to do because he wanted to save his skin.

i have given you enough reasons to understand the Officer made the decision to participate in the action, i dont care if you guys want to add some mirch masala to the case.

The bottom line is that we prevailed and the Officer did for he was paid for. You have so far failed to give any formidable reason so as why did the Air Cdre participate in the battle. On the other hand i have given you plenty.

Means are not considered (though they always are an important aspect of any campaign) when measuring success, or else the US had not spent USD 4 trillion to 'save' Afghanistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

That does not answer my question.

My question, in simpler language, is this:

Who was doing Mr. Azam Khan's job while he was doing the job of a foot soldier?

You might have heard of the phrase, "Jiska kaam, usi ko saaje."

Hi,

That is the problem with most of my pakistani colleagues---they have no comprehension of what you are asking. The problem was that Mr Khan did not do his priority one job---he did not take the threat to the base seriously and had minimal security---.

It is very simple---and I have a hard time understanding why pakistanis cannot look thru this deception---he did not have enough soldiers deployed in the first place---that is why he had to pickup the weapon to fill in the hole.

Basically---there was a lack of security at the base---not enough troops were available---and why were they not available---because he had not ordered them to be available---he then tried to cover it with his bravado---and he had to to fill in the holes---as I understand from one of the posters post was that there were couple of other officers also who joined in the fire fight---.

It again proves---that there were not enough foot soldiers deployed in the first place.

 

[Xeric]

MK you should feel ashamed for raising such accusation without any proof.

 

[MastanKhan]

No body was doing his job, as it was not required at that moment in time. The defence plan was already in place, with three levels of security / defence. The terrorists managed to give element of surprise due to the holy night of ramazan and the time. Only thing required was that "who so ever" can engage them for few minutes until the security system takes control.

I agree the sepoy did an excellent job. Without him, who knows, what would have happened.

I hope you agree that in battle field, there are times when you switch the roles. You cannot let enemy run over your post(s) simply because "it is not my job".

hi,

You know---itis really funny---the terrorists are so clever and the army so stupid---they take advantage of the holy night and the military is sleeping at their job.

You know where the problem lies---it lies with the stupid brains that the pakistanis have---they have yet top learn after 10 years that the terrorists don't consider the pakistanis as muslim citizens---they care less if i is eid---jumaa---iftari or sehri---.

This american un guy during last ramazn---his security guard opens the gate in the early morning during sehri---someone was knocking at the gate that there is food for sehri---that idiot opens the gate---the terroristsa run in---take every one with surprise and kidnap this un personal---.

A beggar mentality for free food---just destroyed all the rules of securioty for a piece of bread---.

MK you should feel ashamed for raising such accusation without any proof.

Xeric,

I will whole heartedly apologize---without any prejudice---. I have learnt to accept my mistakes and I will accept them if it comes to that. There is no shame in accepting your mistakes---.

 

[Xeric]

Xeric,

I will whole heartedly apologize---without any prejudice---. I have learnt to accept my mistakes and I will accept them if it comes to that. There is no shame in accepting your mistakes---.

So you are going to carry on with your slandering, libeling and accusations till the time you are countermanded. Typical Pakistani mentality, i say.

 

[Xeric]

People are going to have a field day on this:
Airbase assault: Initial resistance to Kamra assault seen as

P.S. Comments later.

 

[SQ8]

People are going to have a field day on this:
Airbase assault: Initial resistance to Kamra assault seen as

P.S. Comments later.

Im still not sure about the tally of aircraft given..
and the alleged footage..
Unless its been stated by the ISPR

 

[Sinnerman108]

People are going to have a field day on this:
Airbase assault: Initial resistance to Kamra assault seen as

P.S. Comments later.

Sir, the men in blue need all the help they can get this time.

Im still not sure about the tally of aircraft given..
and the alleged footage..
Unless its been stated by the ISPR

What would one speculate, given that no tally has been officially given backed by photographs etc.

 

[Xeric]

Im still not sure about the tally of aircraft given..
and the alleged footage..
Unless its been stated by the ISPR

"Source" this and "source" that...seems legit, right?

 

[niaz]

We cannot get to the truth unless we are willing to accept all possibilities. TTP/AlQaeda penetration in the PAF was evidenced when the person involved in the attempt on Musharraf turned out to be a PAF non-commissioned officer.

As happened in case of attack on PNS Mehran, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of inside help at Kamra either by someone currently working there or by someone who has worked there in past and has liason with people inside the base.