Ahmadis in Pakistan

[T-Faz]

Allama Iqbal was probably an Ahmedi, apparently something happened and he left Ahmadiat.

Besides Dr. Muhammad “Allama” Iqbal (who was till 1933 or so probably an Ahmadi and whose father and elder brother were staunch Ahmadis), the AIKC consisted of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud – the second caliph of Jamaat Ahmaddiya… the rivalry of these two organizations turned Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam against the Ahmadis altogether.

The Short And Sordid History Of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam Pak Tea House

 

[Meesna]

Where law is not applicable, fatwa is sought...

by hook or by crook comes to mind.

 

[khuramonline]

We cannot meet the challenges of contemporary world while living in middle ages...!

 

[apophenia]

Allama Iqbal was probably an Ahmedi, apparently something happened and he left Ahmadiat.



The Short And Sordid History Of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam Pak Tea House

I despise that blog and the mindset it creates.YLH is like an infant mocking a Nobel Laureate. Iqbal, like Sir Syed, believed in religious reform, modern education and political unity for Muslims and was impressed by MGA at first like some other prominent moslim scholars. But he was never an Ahmadi and from his family his elder brother Atta Muhammad, and his son, Shaikh Ijaz Ahmad accepted Ahmadiyya. Atta Muhammad renounced Ahmadiyya some years before his death and none of his other children accepted it. Ijaz died an Ahmadi but none of his children accepted Ahmadiyya. Ijaz is also the author of Muzloom Iqbal - in which it confirmed that Iqbal never accepted Ahmadiyya. And I have heard that Iqbals' mother was an Ahmadi, but i haven't been able to confirm that through independent resource.

 

[apophenia]

Where law is not applicable, fatwa is sought...

by hook or by crook comes to mind.

What you have posted is not a fatwa. Anyways fatwa is non binding or in merely a legal opinion and in common-law system that we have in Pakistan, fatwa do not carry the sort of weight.

 

[apophenia]

We cannot meet the challenges of contemporary world while living in middle ages...!

and to face the challenges of the contemporary world one has to believe in the charlatan of Qadian.You are funny.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

actually Allama Iqbal Saab was highly influenced by mystical Sufi Islam, if i am not mistaken

 

[khuramonline]

and to face the challenges of the contemporary world one has to believe in the charlatan of Qadian.You are funny.

Quran never even in middle ages restricts anyone in attending valeema of anyone may be of muslim, of kafir, or munafiq.

But to raise fatwas on just attending valeema ... this is the mentality of middle ages...!!!

 

[apophenia]

Quran never even in middle ages restricts anyone in attending valeema of anyone may be of muslim, of kafir, or munafiq.

But to raise fatwas on just attending valeema ... this is the mentality of middle ages...!!!

before sizing the moment, I urge you to read the posts made on this thread. Fatwas are non binding i.e. its not mandatory to respect what is said on fatwa. its just a bloody legal opinion. btw i failed to see your point.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Quran never even in middle ages restricts anyone in attending valeema of anyone may be of muslim, of kafir, or munafiq.

But to raise fatwas on just attending valeema ... this is the mentality of middle ages...!!!

The point seeming to be made isn't attendance in the waliima, but the recitation of something they don't believe in. Of course you are encouraged to partake in the happiness of your non-muslim aqcuaintences.

And as apophenia says, a fatwaa is a legal opinion.

 

[Meesna]

The point seeming to be made isn't attendance in the waliima, but the recitation of something they don't believe in.

Who don't believe in what? Ahmadis consider themselves Muslims. Nothing to do with not believing in anything but clearly a case of persecution by state, violation of freedom of religion and freedom of expression. Pure dark age stuff, that no one else in the world understands or agrees with but a select few bigots and thus, giving a bad name to Islam and Pakistan.

And as apophenia says, a fatwaa is a legal opinion.

Not everyone takes it that way, some take it really serious..

Anchor person Dr Amir Liaquat Hussain declared, on air, the murder of Ahmadi sect members to be the religious duty of devout Muslims. He made the statement on Alim Online, a religious affairs program on Geo TV, which is a prominent Dubai-based Pakistani television channel. Hussain urged his two co-presenters to agree, and in a show on 9 September, he repeated the suggestion. In the 48 hours after the first broadcast, two Ahmadi community leaders were lynched and murdered,...

PAKISTAN: No action taken against Geo TV presenter who incited Muslims to murder members of Pakistan minority on air

...and

LAHORE: A 55 year old Ahmadi man, Naimatullah Ahmad, was stabbed to death and his son Mansoor Ahmad seriously injured on Monday morning in Qila Ahmadabad, Narowal, a local police official told The Express Tribune.

Inspector Riaz of Qila Ahmadabad Police Station said that 29 year old Abid Butt, entered Naimatullah’s house by climbing a side wall adding that Butt has been arrested and a First Information Report (FIR) has been registered against him.

“Preliminary investigations show that Butt has extremist views and belongs to the Tablighi Jamat and usually went on three to 40 day religious camps,” Riaz said.

Butt had confessed to Riaz that he had been told that Ahmadis were “Wajib-ul-Qatal” (ordained to be killed) and that he was following the teachings of Islam.

...

“Butt first yelled as he entered and asked Naimatullah and his son to recite the Kalma and stabbed them without any warning,” she said

...

He said that according to their information, Butt had offered his Friday prayers in a Faisalabad mosque where the sermon delivered by the local cleric was against the Ahmadiyya community.

The cleric in his sermon insisted that they were Wajib-ul-Qatal.

“Naimatullah’s murder was the result of hateful speeches against the Ahmadiyya community,” Saleemuddin said.

Ahmadi man murdered in Narowal – The Express Tribune

Why are fatwas needed when there are laws of the state, unless those issuing fatwas are looking to create trouble?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

worse than bloody middle ages.....

 

[apophenia]

Who don't believe in what? Ahmadis consider themselves Muslims. Nothing to do with not believing in anything but clearly a case of persecution by state, violation of freedom of religion and freedom of expression. Pure dark age stuff, that no one else in the world understands or agrees with but a select few bigots and thus, giving a bad name to Islam and Pakistan. ?

Moslims don’t believe in the divine revelations of MGAQ. You can believe you are the president of USA doesn’t mean you can be allowed to act as one. Yes, constitution of Pakistan declares the Admadiyaa community a minority and merits of that law is in scrutiny on this thread but can you proof that state supported terrorism/persecution against Ahmadis?.

let’s objectively examine if they are being persecuted as bad as being portrayed.In 2001, the Jammat declared that their population was 200 million worldwide. According to their own statistics from year 2000, the numbers of Ahmadis’ murdered were 13 in 2000. The figure dropped to 8 in 2001 to 4 in 2002 to 3 in 2003 to 1 in 2004. Since 2000 to 2010, the number of innocent Ahmadis’ murdered allegedly only for their believe is 140 or 0.0000007 % of their total population. Taking account of their outcry of persecution against a massive population, don’t you think Ahmadis’ death toll should range in thousands?. The logic of persecution and victimization doesn't make sense.

In 2003, they report that the number of charges brought against Ahmadis exclusively based on their religion increased 376% from the previous year. The numbers of cases in 2003 were 63 and in 2002 the number was 30. One doesn’t need to be a mathematical genius to figure out the blunt exaggeration. Some might argue that that actual loss of life is not the only metric to measure persecution and that it manifests itself in forms of social and legal ways which I do agree but then why not look at Palestine where death toll exceeds the entire number of Ahmadis killed from 2000 to 2010 by multiple of 5. What’s happening there is State sponsored terrorism. Or calculate the death toll in the Bosnia war in which genocide was committed against those who held a particular believe. Each soul is precious and I will defend any Ahmadi who is being attacked because he is an Ahmadi but I am disgusted by people overplaying the persecution card time and time again.

* Numerical figures taken from thepersecution.org /daily Alfazal, Rabwah

Not everyone takes it that way, some take it really serious.. ?

Not everyone is sane, some are insane morons too. That doesn’t mean majority will be held responsible for some dumbwits.

PAKISTAN: No action taken against Geo TV presenter who incited Muslims to murder members of Pakistan minority on air
...and
Ahmadi man murdered in Narowal – The Express Tribune

Why are fatwas needed when there are laws of the state, unless those issuing fatwas are looking to create trouble?

The creditability of that anchor is a laughing stock and most scholars have criticized such stunts on media because it delegitimizes the real concerns. Those who attack or threaten (verbal / physical) Ahmadis are maniacs, we as a nation denounce them.

 

[Meesna]

Moslims don’t believe in the divine revelations of MGAQ. You can believe you are the president of USA doesn’t mean you can be allowed to act as one. Yes, constitution of Pakistan declares the Admadiyaa community a minority and merits of that law is in scrutiny on this thread but can you proof that state supported terrorism/persecution against Ahmadis

Ordinance XX is certainly persecution by state on behalf of religious extremists, there are no two ways about it. No Human Rights organisation accepts this as justified in any way and even Government of Pakistan does not defend it in international forums as it is indefensible.

Not everyone is sane, some are insane morons too. That doesn’t mean majority will be held responsible for some dumbwits.

The creditability of that anchor is a laughing stock and most scholars have criticized such stunts on media because it delegitimizes the real concerns. Those who attack or threaten (verbal / physical) Ahmadis are maniacs, we as a nation denounce them.

This is not an issue of sanity. Incitement to murder is a crime even in Pakistani law but these culprits issuing such fatwas are never tried and punished. This is government and law siding with these extremists which in turn give impression to every one who feels the need to avail opportunity that there is open season on sectarian murders.

 

[apophenia]

Ordinance XX is certainly persecution by state on behalf of religious extremists, there are no two ways about it. No Human Rights organisation accepts this as justified in any way and even Government of Pakistan does not defend it in international forums as it is indefensible.

Your reply is a disappointment. You put an allegation then you failed to give any reply other then playing the prosecution card that I have already deflated in my pervious post. For the sake of argument I do acknowledged that few sub clauses with in Ordinance XX are debatable but does that law permits or orders Pakistanis’ to stand up and hurt an Ahmadi ?

Stop running circle around Ordinance XX and read the constitutional history before commenting upon it. Do you actually know anything about Ordinance No. XLIV that came before Ordinance XX ? or what was the situation after 74 or about a gentlemen named Zaheeruddin ? Read about it, You'll be surprised. As your international forums I already stated their opinion on the matter but reposting because you obviously you haven’t read this …
.

European Convention on Human Rights Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, and to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.


Extracts from European court of judgment om 13 December 2001 on case of metropolitan Church of Bessarabia and others Vs Moldova

115. In a democratic society, in which several religions coexist within one and the same population, it may be necessary to place restrictions on this freedom in order to reconcile the interests of the various groups and ensure that everyone's beliefs are respected.

This is not an issue of sanity. Incitement to murder is a crime even in Pakistani law but these culprits issuing such fatwas are never tried and punished. This is government and law siding with these extremists which in turn give impression to every one who feels the need to avail opportunity that there is open season on sectarian murders.

After wasting my precious bandwidth in search for that program and watching it, I can confidentiality say that the above statements are patently false regarding him asking moslims to kill members of the jammat. The episode was about Ahmadi doctrine and history of False prophets and nowhere in the program that moronic televangelist or participants at any point call for any lynching of the Ahmedis’. So I failed to see you getting worked up upon alleged baseless allegation.