Ahmadis in Pakistan

[Kompromat]

My Conclusion Points:

1: Ahmadis are Non Muslims beyond any shadows of doubt and they dont have a right to call themselves Muslims because they are not.


2: They are Pakistanis and they MUST have access to all sorts of freedom.

3: I condemn "Each act of violence " and Terrorism against any minority including Ahmadis/Qadiyanis.

4: I call for a wide ranging dialogue between Muslim and Ahmadi leaders to sort out "Each" issue faced by both sides including the question over Religious identities , Buildings and other concerns .

The Laws against them should remain in place Until an agreement over all issues is reached and then those laws must be abolished as once the issues are resolved they wont be needed.

5: Qadiyanis/Ahmadis must be designated as a Non Muslim minority with all rights including human and religious like any other minority .

6: Muslims should be educated on being tolerant as the punishment if you would like to say so is already been done to them.

Once they are a non Muslim minority they are entitled to be treated equally.

7: Both sides should give up their propaganda campaigns .


Note for those who have been Calling names on me:

I have had people on this thread who have been calling names ie bigot , brainwashed , islamic fundamentalist , and launching personal attacks on me without any proof against my claims , without any logical POV hence spreading just plain BS.

I want to tell them that i do not "Give a damn" about the amount of abuse you will do against me even if you triple its amount , i just simply don't care.

I will say what i have to say in a most civilized way with proofs & no one is going to stop me from having my say.

Take care, My last post on this Thread.


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[Spring Onion]

If all is so well then why do you need such laws in first place?? do you have any answer?

The laws are passed by vote count in the parliament now any law has to be reversed through the same procedure so NO one is stopping them from doing so.


On a side note India is secular country but some Indian states have passed law against conversions which is in itself against secularism so why these states needed the law in the first place?

 

[DaRk WaVe]

do you support Ordinance XX??? Say yes or No

& Explain your answer, please

 

[psychedelic_renegade]

On a side note India is secular country but some Indian states have passed law against conversions which is in itself against secularism so why these states needed the law in the first place?

I'm not sure, but as far as I know, no Indian state can pass a law for themselves if it's not accepted by parliament.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Laws that stoke violence​

The 1971 war is a sad chapter in Pakistan’s history which every citizen and soldier would like to forget. But not the children of Maj-Gen Nasir Chaudhry. They recall with some pride that their father was the only general seriously wounded on the frontline.

Now, 40 years later, they mourn his death at the age of 90 and in a hail of bullets and grenades fired by his own countrymen. The invading Indians gave him a chance to fight back and live, the sneaking fanatics of his own country did not. They killed him while he kneeled in prayer.

Also falling victim to two murderous assaults in Lahore on Friday, May 28 were Munir Sheikh, an incorruptible accountability judge, barrister Ejaz Nasrullah and advocate Hafeez Chaudhry. Almost all of the 100 or more Ahmadi shot dead at prayers on that day were productive and peaceable citizens who did no harm to anyone.

Rubbing salt into the wounds of the grief-stricken Ahmadis have been the expressions of sympathy for them and condemnation of killers coming from some religious leaders who have been incessantly preaching hatred and, of late, inciting violence against them through a section of the press and TV talk shows. It is hard to deny where lies the responsibility and with whom for the ever-increasing targeted killings of Ahmadis that culminated in the Lahore carnage. The government looked on as anchormen and muftis debated death as the only penalty for their heresy.

Looking for a foreign hand, as most among us tend to do, is only to confuse the public and leave the criminals free to strike again. Of all people, the Lahore commissioner Khusro Pervez should not have been heard instantly blaming India’s RAW to divert attention from his administrative incompetence.

The home-grown sectarian killers are an older breed distinct from the latter-day world terrorists — Al Qaeda, its regional sub-variant the Taliban and Indian agents provocateur.

To deal with terrorism may be beyond the skill and resources of the central and provincial governments but both surely can with the sectarian sipahs and lashkars. But they do not consider it politically expedient. They would rather use them to further their political ends.

Sectarianism as a creed is sustained by the laws and policies of the state or, as some would say, by the ideology of Pakistan. Not Ahmadis alone, every sect of Islam including the majority Sunni has been the victim of sectarian fanatics. And they will keep growing in numbers and getting deadlier in their strikes unless some basic changes are made in the principles underlying the state policy.

The first in order should be to shift the emphasis from religious ideology to fundamental rights of individuals and political rights of the constituent units of the federation. The religious belief of a person or a community should in no manner impair their rights as those of Ahmadis indeed have been drastically — both in law and practice.

Likewise, the political power of a province should not be curtailed because its leadership is considered more defiant and demanding as Balochistan’s has been visibly. The leader of no other province could have been bombed to death as was Akbar Bugti nor would his sons and loyalists been driven to the hills.

Secondly, the loyalty of a person or a party to the country should not be called into question only because of their political orientation before independence. Parties like Jamaat-i-Islami and various groups of the Jamiat-i-Ulema who had undeniably opposed Jinnah’s concept of Pakistan now put all the emphasis on its Islamic identity which inevitably stokes fires of sectarian hatred. Any party which restricts its membership to a particular religious denomination should be barred from taking part in national polls and denied representation in parliament.

Thirdly, the state must not legislate in matters of faith. No modern democracy does. All differences were freely debated till the time the National Assembly determined in 1975 that Ahmadis were not Muslims.

Ten years later, Gen Ziaul Haq enacted laws to punish Ahmadis if they “directly or indirectly” posed as Muslim or if any one from among them “in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims”. Not to be found wanting in zeal, Nawaz Sharif then decreed to abrogate the name of the Ahmadi headquarter town — Rabwah — drawn from the Holy Quran.

Since then the Ahmadis have been a target of discrimination by the state and violence by orthodox groups whom neither the government nor the religious leaders nor civil society can tame though all may be condemning.

Only reverting to the Pakistan of Jinnah’s conception will end this. Ironically, the first departure was made by Liaquat Ali Khan who, though fully sharing Jinnah’s outlook, had the Objectives Resolution passed by the constituent assembly requiring the state to enable the Muslims “to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah”.

A greater irony was that the resolution found its most forceful spokesman in the foreign minister, Zafrulla Khan, whose community in later years became its chief victim. Gen Ziaul Haq incorporated the resolution in the constitution to legitimise his own rule. The violent legacy he handed down is being exploited fully by his successors in politics. The final answer to sectarian terror may have to be found in constitutional reforms. The 18th Amendment hasn’t gone beyond issues of political power

DAWN.COM | Editorial | Laws that stoke violence

 

[ajpirzada]

Not Ahmadis alone, every sect of Islam including the majority Sunni has been the victim of sectarian fanatics.

here is the answer. is there any law making a distinction bw different factions of islam? no.
its the ignorant segment of the society which is deriving all this madness. invest in education. invest in education.
secular or non secular is a debate for time wasting. we have seen much worse targeting in our secular neighbour.
which law stops us from arresting those who take law into their own hand and target minorities. none.
its not about the law, its about the ignorance. yet ppl lik to fight over ideology of pakistan.

 

[Martian]

a simple question here should be if BOURIs and AGHA KHANIs are allowed to practice there faith without a problem then why are the AHMEDIs side lined??

if you disagree with there beliefs PRAY for them!!! not KILL THEM & OPPRESS them that will not get them to like you or anything.

Bohris and Aga Khani (Ismailis) are a sect within Shia. They call their place of worship "Jamat Khana". Their religious leaders have never claimed title of "prophet". According to my knowledge, they have not violated basic/fundamental beliefs of main stream orthodox islam. Further, they dont disguise their beliefs as such.

 

[Dr.Evil]

The laws are passed by vote count in the parliament now any law has to be reversed through the same procedure so NO one is stopping them from doing so.


On a side note India is secular country but some Indian states have passed law against conversions which is in itself against secularism so why these states needed the law in the first place?

Madam - No laws have been passed against conversion.

Only laws passed stated that those who wish to change their religion have to make a representation in writing to District Collector. Any person is free to change his religion as he deems.

The above mentioned law was brought in to regulate forceful conversions either by force or by Luring the poor with money and other material benefits.

 

[Hyde]

This is one of the worst thread i have seen in this forum - where the teachings of Islam has continuasly being distorted

I wanted to say a lot but i sensed peoples has a habit of twisting words and changings its meaning to suit their own purposes.

May Allah have mercy on all of us

Bye

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thread will be re-opened after moderation and deletion of religious content. This is not a discussion on Ahmadi beliefs or what Islam says about prophethood and what not, and the next members to raise those issues will be suspended.

This thread is solely about highlighting the discriminatory laws against Ahmadis in Pakistan, that prevent them from practicing their faith as they wish, and curtail some of their basic rights. Laws that violate Quranic injunctions of 'equality and no compulsion in religion'.

If you do not think these laws are discriminatory, please counter the arguments made, don't repeat the same old 'Islam does not consider Ahmadis Muslims'. This is about discrimination against an entire community and the infringement of their rights by the State, not about what your faith thinks about Ahmadis.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is one of the worst thread i have seen in this forum - where the teachings of Islam has continuasly being distorted

This is not supposed to be a thread on the teachings of Islam, as the moderators have pointed out repeatedly, but a thread highlighting the discriminatory laws against Ahmadis in Pakistan.

As I warned above, members who continue to raise religious issues on this thread will be suspended.

 

[Awesome]

Parh parh ilm Kitabaan da
Tu Naam rakh lia Qazi

Hath ich parhke Talwaran
Tu Naam rakh lia Ghazi

Makkay Madinay ghoom aya
Tu Naam rakh lia Haji

Mullah tu ki hassil keeta
Je yaar (fellow countrymen Pakistanis) na rakhia raazi?

 

[Awesome]

Bismillah...

 

[Comet]

Let me show a little bit of Positive side of Pakistan.
Minorities, including Ahmadis are allowed to the following as any other citizen of the country:

1) Right to do Business
2) Right to Buy and hold property
3) Right to have Government Job
4) Freedom of movement
5) Education and Profession

etc

My Chawwanni!

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Ahmadi massacre silence is dispiriting​

The virtual conspiracy of silence after the murder of 94 Ahmadis in Pakistan exposes the oppression suffered by the sect

I often find myself defending Pakistan against the unbidden prejudices of the outside world. No, Islam is not the cause of terrorism. Yes, the Taliban is a complex phenomenon. No, Imran Khan is not a major political figure.
This past week, though, I am silent. The massacre of 94 members of the minority Ahmadi community on May 28 has exposed something ugly at the heart of Pakistan – its laws, its rulers, its society.
It's not the violence that disturbs most, gut-churning as it was. During Friday prayers two teams of attackers stormed Ahmadi mosques in the eastern city of Lahore. They fired Kalashnikovs from minarets, chucked grenades into the crowds, exploded their suicide vests.
As the massacre unfolded, a friend called – his father-in-law, a devout Ahmadi, was inside one of the besieged mosques. The family, glued to live television coverage, were sick with worry.
Two hours later, my friend's relative emerged alive. But many of his friends – old men, including a retired general and former judge – were dead.
The killers were quickly identified as "Punjabi Taliban" – a loose collective of local extremists with ties to the tribal belt. This was unsurprising. More dispiriting, however, was the wider reaction.
Human rights groups reacted with pre-programmed outrage; otherwise there was a virtual conspiracy of silence. A dribble of protestors attended street protests against the attack in Lahore and Karachi; eleven people showed up in Islamabad.
The normally vociferous media were unusually reticent. Commentators expressed dismay at the violence, but few dared voice support for the Ahmadi community itself. Politicians turned yellow.
Few visited the bereaved; still today, the chief minister of Punjab, Shahbaz Sharif, has not visited the bullet-pocked mosques or offered compensation to the injured.

In the national parliament, three brave female MPs crossed party lines to propose a resolution condemning the attacks, in the face of massive indifference. The motion passed, just.
The reticence is rooted in law and history. Ahmadis believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a 19th century Punjabi cleric, was the messiah sent by God – a notion that deeply offends orthodox Muslims for whom Muhammad, who lived in 7th-century Arabia, is the final prophet.

The problem is that the state has taken sides in this religious argument. Since the 1970s, civilian and military governments have passed laws enshrining the discrimination against Ahmadis, today thought to number about 4 million in Pakistan.
And so they live in the shadows of society. Under the law, Ahmadis may not call themselves Muslims and may not refer to their places of worship as "mosques". Orthodox Muslims applying for a passport must sign a statement deriding Ahmad as an "imposter".
Any Ahmadi who defies these edicts can be sentenced to death; in 2009, 37 were charged under the blasphemy laws and 57 under Ahmadi-specific laws.
This state-directed discrimination has caused prejudice to soak into the bones of even well-educated Pakistanis. It is acceptable to denigrate Ahmadis as "agents of foreign powers" such as the CIA and Raw, India's intelligence service.

In 2008 a prominent preacher on Geo, the country's largest channel, suggested that right-minded Muslims should kill Ahmadis. Within 48 hours two Ahmadis had been lynched. The television presenter has prospered.
Last year a banner appeared outside the high court in Lahore, declaring "Jews, Christians and Ahmadis are enemies of Islam". Few complained.
The silence that followed the Ahmadi killings was broken last week by a tsunami of outrage at the Israeli commando raids on boats headed for Gaza. Commentators and politicians fulminated at the treatment of the Palestinians – a minority that suffers state-sanctioned, religiously driven discrimination. Nobody got the irony.
It makes one realise how small the constituency of true liberals is in Pakistan – not Pervez Musharraf-style liberals, who drink whisky and attend fashion shows, but people who believe the state should cherish all citizens equally. That, after all, was the publicly expressed desire of Pakistan's founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, 63 years ago. Today it lies in tatters.

Ahmadi massacre silence is dispiriting | Declan Walsh | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk