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Ahmadis in Pakistan

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No doubt we dont see the Admins and Mods moderating the boards, coz they all are busy here :D

Guys, can we please stop the insect from bringing in an altogether different topic in this thread?

Where's Agno..??!
 
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In other words you are talking something that you know nothing about ????

Please Pholeazeee do not use Religion card here we do not CARE what religion are you or you have any at all.

I am talking about practical humanity. (Ahmedis being human beings just like you and me). Having the right to worship the almighty by whatever means they like and also calling themselves by whatever name they like. In case of ahmeids calling themselves muslim will not take away your credentails of being a true muslim. Religion is not that narrow and that delicate entitity.
 
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Ahemdhis are NON MUSLIM all over Globe.

But they are HUMAN and they have all rights to live, practice and preach their religion.
 
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once it has been decided that the other dude is at fault, then there's a need to put a full stop to the debate. Like you said Whoever has the better argument, wins.
It's not decided, and probably will never be. Decided means, every Ahmedi of Pakistan has accepted that Ghulam Ahmed Mirza was indeed wrong in his assertions.

Has that happened?

It has not been decided since it is not anyone's decision to make but of the individual Pakistani. It, like all other tyrannies and corruption in Pakistan has been imposed.

Though i dont know if we have ever allowed qadiaynis to justify their beliefs in an open debate.
Have we ever justified that Islam is real? Nobody needs to justify their beliefs.

Over and above, as we Muslims have very clear and lucid teachings over who is a Muslim and otherwise (the Kalima), there shouldnt remain any further doubts, but still i am in the favour of giving them A chance, nothing more, nothing less.
We're Muslims because we believe in something. They say they are Muslims while they believe in some other thing. Obviously one is correct and one is wrong.

Now is it our right to call them wrong? Definitely it is. Is it our right to stop them physically from saying they are right? It is not.

As long as we're verbal about our objections to the Ahmedi school of thought there is no issue and it is our right to be so. When we take that to violence or state mandated jail time then that's abuse.
 
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WTF!

i have three cats - the mom, dad and kiddo nexus.

Just had a knock on the door and guess what, it was a big scary gib-cat outside. Soon after staring each other in the eyes for a while he opened his mouth, and then to my horror it just said, meow..i am the father of that kiddo back there in your study!!!!! Shyt!

What should i do?

Kick him out.

Tell him to f off, i mean politely.

Kill him.

Let him debate it of with the family?

Bang my head with something - damn the horrors of freedom :D
 
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:lol::lol: i have not yet reported you because you are providing some funny misconceptions.

As a matter of fact you did report me to Asim. And that is why I clarified that I am not an expert of Islamic theology

Asim how do you define such stupid misconception by trolls in such threads ???



Whereas you are just posting without even verifying what you are saying

As I said before, I say what I feel is right as a human being.
 
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Brother with all you due respect, please use some mind here. Religion is just like Copyright, we got to name OUR religion ISLAM, other got to name there how they chose.

There is a simple rule to be a Muslim, accept that "There is no God but God and Muhammad (PBUH) is the last Prophet of God" and bingo your a Muslim! Suni's do as well as Shia's. Ahmedi's dont, so the thing is there ahmedi's and NOT Muslim's. the day they starting spreading there faith on the name of Ahmedi's and leave Islam alone the day I hope they will be left alone (please again dont BS and say I am saying that nothing would change if they dont and they should be killed im NOT saying that and you know it)

OK, as far as i know and pls correct me if i'm wrong that... to be a Muslim u have to believe in " la ilaha illa-Allah Muhammadun Rasulullah " that is ...There is no other God but Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) is his messenger.

Now which part of this phrase talks up the " last prophet" thing??

I'm sure there must be some other Haddit which explains Muhammad (PBUH) as the last prophet,but the above phrase which is the basic criteria for conversion into Islam doestn't .
 
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not in favour of killing & butchering Ahmedi but you people must differentiate b/w popular three terms that are used interchangeably
Minority; NonMuslim; Traitor(religious)
Now the real thing is that Ahmedi belong to the last word & so does a taliban or any other religious freak because what they all have in common is the mis-interpretation of divine sayings!!
No doubt about it that we will uphold an idol/fire worshipper in greater esteem than that of a traitor according to the Quaid saying that politically Muslim ceases to be a Muslim ................all are equal from political point of view
Hope all of you understand
 
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It's not decided, and probably will never be. Decided means, every Ahmedi of Pakistan has accepted that Ghulam Ahmed Mirza was indeed wrong in his assertions.

Has that happened?

It has not been decided since it is not anyone's decision to make but of the individual Pakistani. It, like all other tyrannies and corruption in Pakistan has been imposed.
What's the doubt? We know how to define a Muslim, dont we?

But yes you are probably right in saying if all of them have accepted GAM was wrong, but that wouldnt mean i can lay claim on just anything which i deem necessary. What if i lay a claim over your property, would you let me go on the basis of me not accepting that my assertions were wrong?

Indeed, qadiaynis should explore, explore the fact. Explore as we ask other religions to explore and as we have explored - we consider ourselves right because we know that our ancestral Books told us that there would be this Last Messenger besides many other indications. But the qadiaynis need not to work that hard, with the kind of IT power that we have today one can search and research anything to death, and as qadiyanis are the derivatives of Islam which indeed very very very clearly says that there isnt going to be any other Prophet after Muhammad (PBUH), so how hard it can be to understand. They consider themselves Muslims (as they follow 'some' of Islam as it suits them) but they dont consider themselves as non-Muslims (because they very easily negate the basics - seal of Prophethood as it doesnt suites them), how not logical.

Have we ever justified that Islam is real? Nobody needs to justify their beliefs.
Yes we did.

Though there is no need to do so, but then one need to question what one believes in, i mean i being a soldier did justify myself before i used to bang the indians at Siachen or others at many places where i was operationaly employed. Though Islam has that something of 'blind belief' which requires you not to question at a certain level, but then didnt you question/justify yourself before you opted to become an IT professional?


We're Muslims because we believe in something. They say they are Muslims while they believe in some other thing. Obviously one is correct and one is wrong.
No doubts about that.

Christians are Chrsitians because they believe in something and Hindus are Hindus because they believed in something. So is the Catholic, Protestant debate, but then they didnt defy each others basics.

Now is it our right to call them wrong? Definitely it is. Is it our right to stop them physically from saying they are right? It is not.
No it is not our right to physically stop them but then for how long we want to play this game? i mean it is a qadiaynis right to claim whatever he can, but is it not a Muslim's right to claim what is his? The issue here is of contradiction. Christian dont contradict with Islam, expect the Son, God thing, hinduism dont contadict with Islam except the idol worship and multiple Gods thing, but then they dont contradict our basics or even if they did, as in case of hinduism (multiple Gods Vs One), they dont claim to be Muslims.

As long as we're verbal about our objections to the Ahmedi school of thought there is no issue and it is our right to be so. When we take that to violence or state mandated jail time then that's abuse.

No to violence.

But then not everyone is perfect, shyt happens. But does the Constitution ask for beating them? Yes the jail thingy, but then they have the option where they have to choose - i am referring to the certification (mostly in govt jobs) where one is asked to accede to the Oneness of Allah and the Finality of the Prophet (PBUH). They sign it, we all are guud, they dont, they stay qadiyani - no issues again.

Like i always say, there needs to be a stop to everything and limits that should be define, though very thinly. This includes the word Freedom, or else there had been no laws, rules and Constitutions.

Khula khata...

Khula khao tey naga nahao...
:lol:
 
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What's the doubt? We know how to define a Muslim, dont we?
Who is we? You, me, or them... or State of Pakistan?

You or me we can define the Muslim from our own personal religious beliefs. We can impose these beliefs upon others.

In reality we can know what a Muslim is, we can preach what a Muslim is, but the Muslim has to accept that this is the definition of what a Muslim is.

But yes you are probably right in saying if all of them have accepted GAM was wrong, but that wouldnt mean i can lay claim on just anything which i deem necessary. What if i lay a claim over your property, would you let me go on the basis of me not accepting that my assertions were wrong?

One of the most common mistake in arguing about Ahmedis is of mixing civil issues with that of faith. Faith is without proof, it is a belief in something unprovable.

However still you can continue to believe that the property is yours, but I won't hand it over to you just because you say its yours, I have to be believe its yours.

Indeed, qadiaynis should explore, explore the fact. Explore as we ask other religions to explore and as we have explored - we consider ourselves right because we know that our ancestral Books told us that there would be this Last Messenger besides many other indications. But the qadiaynis need not to work that hard, with the kind of IT power that we have today one can search and research anything to death, and as qadiyanis are the derivatives of Islam which indeed very very very clearly says that there isnt going to be any other Prophet after Muhammad (PBUH), so how hard it can be to understand. They consider themselves Muslims (as they follow 'some' of Islam as it suits them) but they dont consider themselves as non-Muslims (because they very easily negate the basics - seal of Prophethood as it doesnt suites them), how not logical.
I haven't argued for the Ahmedi belief to be right at all. I have argued the case of one group of Pakistanis to believe and practice their religion freely. That is the issue here, Pakistan's oppression of religion.

Yes we did.

Though there is no need to do so, but then one need to question what one believes in, i mean i being a soldier did justify myself before i used to bang the indians at Siachen or others at many places where i was operationaly employed. Though Islam has that something of 'blind belief' which requires you not to question at a certain level, but then didnt you question/justify yourself before you opted to become an IT professional?
My question was, can you even prove that Allah exists? Can you get Allah to testify that the Islamic faith is the one true righteous path? If the Muslims can't shouldn't they be thrown in jail for not proving what they believe in?

No it is not our right to physically stop them but then for how long we want to play this game? i mean it is a qadiaynis right to claim whatever he can, but is it not a Muslim's right to claim what is his?
Yes it is the Ahmedi's right to claim their beliefs out aloud even when you've ripped their argument to pieces. Heck you can bring GAM back to life and he can say he made it all up and still they have the right to believe in it and preach it freely. Because what they say or believe does not make it the truth. It's a matter of thinking something. How can you ever stop them from thinking something and making others think the same thing.

The issue here is of contradiction. Christian dont contradict with Islam, expect the Son, God thing, hinduism dont contadict with Islam except the idol worship and multiple Gods thing, but then they dont contradict our basics or even if they did, as in case of hinduism (multiple Gods Vs One), they dont claim to be Muslims.
Everything contradicts with everything else when it comes to religion.

The problem is much more simple. We are a very insecure bunch. We are acting like an impulsive buyer at a car dealership. It's like we think if we allow it to happen, the Ahmedis would be like "Oh c'mon, here are the keys to the car, take it for a spin, see how it feels" and ultimately we'll fall for their insidious evil plans :D

No to violence.

But then not everyone is perfect, shyt happens. But does the Constitution ask for beating them? Yes the jail thingy, but then they have the option where they have to choose - i am referring to the certification (mostly in govt jobs) where one is asked to accede to the Oneness of Allah and the Finality of the Prophet (PBUH). They sign it, we all are guud, they dont, they stay qadiyani - no issues again.
Yes and by mistake when one of their colleagues finds out they are kicked out of the job, passed over for promotions. I recently found out about 3 Pakistani colleagues of mine who sit 10 ft away from me. They have kept the fact hidden about their truth, out of fear. Quite sad, its real persecution. Khauf ki zindagi why? Because we're insecure about our faith - our weak imaan.
 
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India has a significant Ahmadiyya population.

Pakistan is the only state to have declared the Ahmadis as non-Muslims. In Bangladesh and India, there is no legislation that goes to the extent of declaring Ahmadiyas non-Muslims or even limiting their activities. Nor is there any law that defines who is or not a Muslim. In India, the issue of Ahmadis came into forefront in the seventies. On one occasion, the court very pragmatically held that the Ahmadis are Muslims [Shibauddin Koya AIR (1971) Ker. 206].

Listen guys. When you do comparisons, look to do so between apples and apples instead of throwing one off-tangent argument after an other.

Are BD and India constitutionally Islamic republics? No they are not so don't bring that comparison into the mix. The Ahmedi beliefs will not be accepted as mainstream Islam in any Muslim country which has its constitution/legal framework constructed around Islam (KSA and Iran are two other examples).

I am not privy to the details of Ahmedi case in India, however them being Muslims is the entire point of disagreement.
 
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I am talking about practical humanity. (Ahmedis being human beings just like you and me). Having the right to worship the almighty by whatever means they like and also calling themselves by whatever name they like. In case of ahmeids calling themselves muslim will not take away your credentails of being a true muslim. Religion is not that narrow and that delicate entitity.

Yes it does effect us , if i steal your passport and use it for myself would it effect you ????

Ahmadis are NON Muslims and i dont give a damn about what they worship or dont worship anything at all its their business.

What i dont want to see is that them spreading lies and trapping simple Muslims when they tell them that we are just another sect .

They worship whatever in whatever way is not my damn business but not in the name of Islam.

People will die defending this cause !
 
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Asim,

The problem is much more simple. We are a very insecure bunch. We are acting like an impulsive buyer at a car dealership. It's like we think if we allow it to happen, the Ahmedis would be like "Oh c'mon, here are the keys to the car, take it for a spin, see how it feels" and ultimately we'll fall for their insidious evil plans

In my humble opinion, in Pakistan, Christians proselytize all the time. What they are saying is exactly what you are stating "Oh c'mon, here are the keys to the car, take it for a spin, see how it feels." Now the issue is that Christians don't say that give our version of Islam (which is Christianity) a try. They say, here is Christianity, accept Jesus into your life for your eternal salvation. At that point in time, a Muslim, who is being proselytized to can say ok this sounds good to me or not. Clear cut..no confusion and the differences are clear and stark for someone looking at the two religions.

The Ahmedi issue I believe is that when they proselytize, they say we are Muslims but then the basic beliefs are in disagreement with Islam's basic tenets. Ahmedis should be able to proselytize by openly saying this is how we are different from Muslims but I think the issue is that this difference is not called out and what they offer is offered as the teachings of Islam, which to most mainstream Muslims is a misrepresentation of their faith.

There are other differences as well such as the need for Ahmedis to have separate places of Worship in the Western countries apart from those of mainstream Muslims. Why are those needed? Why can't the ahmedis (if they profess to the same faith), participate and pray in the masajids of the mainstream Muslims? The reason in my opinion is because they will have to adhere to the same creed and not be able to voice their difference in the basic tenet of Islam and this becomes a problem for them then.

I think Ahmedis have the right to proselytize, but not in the name of Islam and this is the crux of the matter. Its not about declaring someone non-Muslim. Its a matter of unity of faith for the Islamic community.

Yes and by mistake when one of their colleagues finds out they are kicked out of the job, passed over for promotions. I recently found out about 3 Pakistani colleagues of mine who sit 10 ft away from me. They have kept the fact hidden about their truth, out of fear. Quite sad, its real persecution. Khauf ki zindagi why? Because we're insecure about our faith - our weak imaan.

Yaar I don't think its this bad. Although not known to many, one of the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff of Pakistan has been a Qadiani and this was known to all who served with him and around him including his superiors.

I have known family friends who are Ahmedi my entire life and they live, work and participate in our social functions without a hint of ostracizing. The same militants who are making their lives miserable are attacking us mainstream Muslims with the same zeal and vigor.

I am not saying that Ahmedis have not faced discrimination. However it is circumstantial and has been faced by various groups at various times.
 
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India has a significant Ahmadiyya population.

Pakistan is the only state to have declared the Ahmadis as non-Muslims. In Bangladesh and India, there is no legislation that goes to the extent of declaring Ahmadiyas non-Muslims or even limiting their activities. Nor is there any law that defines who is or not a Muslim. In India, the issue of Ahmadis came into forefront in the seventies. On one occasion, the court very pragmatically held that the Ahmadis are Muslims [Shibauddin Koya AIR (1971) Ker. 206].
Quite frankly declaring them Muslims is equally wrong as declaring them non-Muslims. It totally throws India's assertions that it is a secular country to the gutter.
 
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