AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan.

[CHI RULES]

What you fail to mention is that for a country like Pakistan American hardware is always sanction prone. The Americans change their mind every other day. It all depends on their mood.

Pakistan cannot rely on such a supplier. Even if the supplier has the best hardware available. What good is superior hardware without logistics, spares etc.?

Pakistan must at all cost diversify and look at Chinese and Russian options. Since Pakistan has paid for the AH1Z order it will accept the delivery at any stage. That doesn't mean we should rely on an unreliable supplier like the US. Even if the Russian/Chinese helicopters are inferior or lack on certain levels they are worth it. A better deal for Pakistan would be to setup some sort of JV with China or Russia and produce the helicopters domestically.

Dear member some sort of JV involves though at basic level in case of Turkish helicopters and Pak do not have sufficient facilities/infrastructure to start manufacturing every hardware within country. The resources already booked/allocated to manufacture JF17 and in long run next gen fighter. It's easy to say but difficult to implement in country like Pakistan where absolutely no or only basic level infrastructure is available we do not have giants like Tata group or others in case of India.

Pakistan has two options one is to field large number of attack helicopters with inferior capabilities or to keep a small fleet with capable helicopters. The Pak path for limited inductions but quality stuff is more viable. Moreover Pak has survived sanctions in the past and they were able to keep their F16s operational. The only time PAF face difficulty was during/after Kargil war and it was due to purely strategic issues as sufficient spares were not stored by PAF as they were not informed by PA about their role or challenges expected during operation. Now PAF management has learned their lesson and are more prepared for such situations.

In same way Pak has means and resources to keep the AH1Z cobras operational even some strict sanctions are imposed in near future if AH1Z is delivered.

The classic examples of self reliance to keep stuff operational include Iran keeping their F14s, F4s and F5s along with old super cobras operational for almost four decades and now they are producing their clones, meanwhile Pak has kept their Mirage fleet operational.
Further in order to counter such situations Pakistan should rely on two to three types of Jats and attack helicopters.

Believe me it is also majority opinion that if Pakistan starts to launch superior JF17 Block-III then certainly they may get upgrade option for F16s from USA also. The time is to play your cards in better way in international arena rather than denying quality stuff.

.. rooivalk.... Rooi-> Red; Valk -> Falcon. Rooivlack - means something vulgar.

Thanks for correction, further considering your experience and know how you should start a detailed discussion about South African hardware and it's capabilities. The information about South African attack helicopter( I shall rather avoid to spell it), Marlin BVR, Umokhonto ER etc is available at limited scale. Further reasons so far on Pak side for not considering much stuff from South Africa.

 

[Zhukov]

Bheek hum Allah say mangtay hai maty say nahi.

Slave minded CIA Zombie is no different than a Patwari who supports Noonis. American brainwashed lackey should instead go and live in America rather than Europe, so he can easily worship them there.

China and Russia already favoring their own currencies over the dollar and are making efforts to ditch the dollar. So heres a link for the false flag to read and understand.

https://www.rt.com/business/423930-russia-china-dollar-trade/

Here more for the False flag to read that China is offering Pakistan to trade in Yuan to help decrease trade deficit.

https://profit.pakistantoday.com.pk...to-trade-in-yuan-help-decrease-trade-deficit/

And you quoted me in this post for some reason? How am i linked here?

 

[Knight Rider]

And you quoted me in this post for some reason? How am i linked here?

No !!!! i quoted you for the link which i have given to read and understand.

 

[Super Falcon]

Pakistan military has to understand specially idiot airforce that americans weapons are not reliable usa itself not reluable so buy russian helicopter

Pakistani military has tu make a mind that even us come to offer you F 22 0dont take it

 

[Zhukov]

No !!!! i quoted you for the link which i have given to read and understand.

Sir if it is even remotely possible that china Sign with us a Yuan Trade Deal. Where will we get Yuan to pay for Chinese Exports and China Exports almost 10 times more then it imports from Pakistan. A Chinese Credit line in Yuan Perhaps? And Where will we find the pay for that Credit Line? Any one else of our Export Partners trade in Yuan? I don't think so. Net impact will be on Dollars reserves only. Unless China Sign with us Special Trade deals to Import from out markets. That is what i have been saying all along. Don't jump up and down for Chinese investment. Ask for Trade Agreements ask Chinese to Buy from our Industry or At least Promote Re-Export Industries to Pakistan Instead of Investing in projects that will generate revenues in domestic markets only. Transfer your Production base to Pakistan.
Or Else we will end up in even worse situation.
Russians Chinese Deals i cannot comment on. Don't know what is Inter-Nation Trade figures are for both countries. If it is even for both, May be this can work out for them. But not for net Importers like we are to china

 

[PAR 5]

I had indicated this a few months back on this forum that the Vipers ain't coming not for the want of sanctions but for the lack of self financed funds at GHQ. These Vipers can be shipped tomorrow provided GHQ coughs up the funds required. If not than they will be sold elsewhere. This case is not about sanctions because the US has none at this stage on Pakistan. Its all about 'Show me the Money!' which we really don't have at this time to show.

 

[maximuswarrior]

Dear member some sort of JV involves though at basic level in case of Turkish helicopters and Pak do not have sufficient facilities/infrastructure to start manufacturing every hardware within country. The resources already booked/allocated to manufacture JF17 and in long run next gen fighter. It's easy to say but difficult to implement in country like Pakistan where absolutely no or only basic level infrastructure is available we do not have giants like Tata group or others in case of India.

Pakistan has two options one is to field large number of attack helicopters with inferior capabilities or to keep a small fleet with capable helicopters. The Pak path for limited inductions but quality stuff is more viable. Moreover Pak has survived sanctions in the past and they were able to keep their F16s operational. The only time PAF face difficulty was during/after Kargil war and it was due to purely strategic issues as sufficient spares were not stored by PAF as they were not informed by PA about their role or challenges expected during operation. Now PAF management has learned their lesson and are more prepared for such situations.

In same way Pak has means and resources to keep the AH1Z cobras operational even some strict sanctions are imposed in near future if AH1Z is delivered.

The classic examples of self reliance to keep stuff operational include Iran keeping their F14s, F4s and F5s along with old super cobras operational for almost four decades and now they are producing their clones, meanwhile Pak has kept their Mirage fleet operational.
Further in order to counter such situations Pakistan should rely on two to three types of Jats and attack helicopters.

Believe me it is also majority opinion that if Pakistan starts to launch superior JF17 Block-III then certainly they may get upgrade option for F16s from USA also. The time is to play your cards in better way in international arena rather than denying quality stuff.


Thanks for correction, further considering your experience and know how you should start a detailed discussion about South African hardware and it's capabilities. The information about South African attack helicopter( I shall rather avoid to spell it), Marlin BVR, Umokhonto ER etc is available at limited scale. Further reasons so far on Pak side for not considering much stuff from South Africa.

That sounds all good, but the US helicopters aren't coming any time soon. That is an indication how sanction prone US hardware is.

Pak is already looking around for alternatives which is a wise thing to do.

 

[Arsalan]

They have orders from Marines and Navy but those deliveries are not due until mid next year. So most likely the infrastructure required isnt in place.

Should these be kept at some warehouse/storage before delivery rather than sending these out to boneyard?

The Mi-28 is ill suited for the very agile and fast moving battlefield we are expecting- sadly, not much is there to show for it but now I would hope someone from the right ladders in SA steps in to offer the Roolivak as an alternative @denel .
As far as I can tell thought development funding has ceased and Pakistan is not rich enough to fund anything.
A better option is the KA-52 but those cost more than the Mi-28 even though they are smaller in size.


Changes specific to Pakistan have been incorporated which other customers may not accept without refit.

Again, why not keep them safe, refit them and resell? rather than sending brand new helicopters to boneyard?

Have we got any confirmation that this news is in fact true?

 

[baapu]

Should these be kept at some warehouse/storage before delivery rather than sending these out to boneyard?


Again, why not keep them safe, refit them and resell? rather than sending brand new helicopters to boneyard?

Have we got any confirmation that this news is in fact true?

boneyard *is* storage. What possible difference can it be if its stored in a warehouse? do you ( or anyone ) believe that the paint will fade? or someone will steal parts from it if its stored outside?

 

[Signalian]

No big deal on that engine; it was produced here without licence. It also powers our Oryx helos.

what about the Mmw radar

 

[Arsalan]

boneyard *is* storage. What possible difference can it be if its stored in a warehouse? do you ( or anyone ) believe that the paint will fade? or someone will steal parts from it if its stored outside?

NO, i am not talking about theft but boneyard is NOT storage for brand new machines. Its a graveyard, old decommissioned planes are put there for storage. These helicopters we are talking about are brand new ones

 

[baapu]

NO, i am not talking about theft but boneyard is NOT storage for brand new machines. Its a graveyard, old decommissioned planes are put there for storage. These helicopters we are talking about are brand new ones

OK. Please tell me why not store them out in the open? reason?

Construction of warehouse costs money. So imagine you have to ask someone to obtain budget for that construction. Please provide what reasons you would provide to justify that spending?

 

[jamal18]

We are getting used to it, first F16s now AH-1Zs

Yes. Let's buy some more because they are our trusted friends.

 

[Arsalan]

OK. Please tell me why not store them out in the open? reason?

Construction of warehouse costs money. So image you have to ask someone to obtain budget for that construction. Please provide what reasons you would provide to justify that spending?

Because you are not talking about storing hundreds of them, as is the case with a boneyard. For 15-18 new machines the best way would be to refit them, modify them if required and deliver to a new customer. If at all, store them for a few months in a warehouse so that these can be delivered when required. Boneyard is for OLD DECOMMISSIONED aircraft, hundreds of them that you do not bother with to store inside.

 

[baapu]

We are getting used to it, first F16s now AH-1Zs

the F16s deal was the best thing that ever happened to Pakistan Air force. Ask anyone in the Airforce to imagine where would Pakistan's airforce be without the F16s.

Because you are not talking about storing hundreds of them, as is the case with a boneyard. For 15-18 new machines the best way would be to refit them, modify them if required and deliver to a new customer. If at all, store them for a few months in a warehouse so that these can be delivered when required. Boneyard is for OLD DECOMMISSIONED aircraft, hundreds of them that you do not bother with to store inside.

OK, again. you have to store lets say 15 helicopters. you need money to construct storage . what reasons would you provide to obtain that money.
(retrofit or modifying them is is not storage that's is done is specialized facilities )