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Agni-VI all set to take shape

AhaseebA,

mostly true, but based on IF.

IF India has reliable MIRVS. That's a big big IF like IF Indians can reach outer solar system, then everything are off the bets and all bets are off.

Russia, who controls Agni's guidance system,turnkey hardware, materials used, reliablity issue and guideance service ( Russia GLOSASS? ), will not be stupid enough to allow India get MIRV full tech, make no mistake about it. But some Russia defence firms will use the idea to milk more cows from DRDO in the coming years.

Heck even Russia would sell it, the US, China and other members of UNDC wouldn't allow it happen.

We were actually having discussion on a hypothesized scenario with Pakistan possessing MIRVs and India possessing ABMs to counter them (not the other way around), in future.
You are entitled to your opinion. :)
 
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1. Yes, speaking in terms of individual warhead capability, MIRVs don't. But they can overcome ABMs, if saturated in a particular area (then they would be simply MRVs, i.e. separate warheads but converged on the same target).
No, ABMs can defeat missiles coming from any direction, difference of direction does not makes the interception difficult.

2. Yes, the primary reason for developing MIRVs was to inflict maximum damage in a fist strike utilizing least possible missiles. In the second strike too, they can ensure complete annihilation.

3. Yes, a limited number would be present, because all the targets cannot be defended equally. However I agree with you that MIRVed systems are somewhat equally expensive speaking in terms of individual economics. But don't you think that the countermeasures, which MIRVs deploy, make interception a whole lot difficult?

4. Well PAF does have the capability, although it might not be pretty strong at the moment. We can potentially reduce the number of deployed ABMs by India in case of a war.

@ nuclearpak , kindly move the last couple of posts related to missile defenses to this thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-strategic-forces/127894-how-can-pakistan-counter-india-s-abm-system.html

1.I was not talking about difficulty in targeting a warhead due to some technical shortcoming of ABM but due to the fact that warheads released from a single missile destined for a single target would be bunched up together (warheads follow ballistic trajectories) while in case of multiple missiles they could approach from different directions thus providing tactical flexibility to targetter. In multiple missile scenario,first warhead may be used in high altitude airburst mode.While this may not knock down a modern radar as it is well shielded from Emp bursts,but it could temporarily blind it by creating an ion field from which other warheads could pass through (as ballistics warheads are not guided by electronics,there would be no effect of them,and nuclear explosion in upper atmosphere would not generate a shock wave as it is rarefied which would be strong enough to knock down nukes travelling at considerable distance.This is not possible in MIRV mode in which most of nukes would be travelling close to each other and one of them going off would destroy all of them.

2.The whole premise of saturation of targets has many flaws.

a.One which i have highlighted earlier is that it assumes that missiles used in saturating target would be less costly than ABM missiles.This is fundamentally wrong.ABM has high price tag due to sunk cost it requires in R&D.Missile to Missile,an ICBM or MRBM is much costlier to produce than an interceptor missile.

b.It assumes that targets worthy of nuclear strike are dime a dozen.This is not the case.In most countries,if you have been able to save Tier I and Tier II cities,you have not only ensured your country's survival but your prosperity also.Example in India's case if you have been unable to target Delhi,Mumbai,Chennai,Banglore and Hyderabad,you have ensured that most of the manufacturing base and agricultural base(which is nuke-proof) has survived. Targeting cities like Lucknow may satisfy the bloodlust of some general but the effect that it would have not have much effect on ability of India to recover.A lot of Indian states do not even have a primate city.There is not target of value in state of Gujrat,Kerala,West Bengal or Haryana and Punjab concentrated enough to be targeted by nukes.Assets of these states are dispersed.Think of this from pakistani perspective. Would your government care for peshawar or quetta in case on all out nuclear war,if you theoretically have limited ABM batteries.

So the prospective targets would be heavily guarded,making the job of getting through an ABM shield difficult.

c.Countermeasures if applied would require additional weight hence reducing the number of warheads a MIRV'd missile could carry.Minutemen III and topol M could carry up to 6 warheads( maximum is in 12-15 range but for more than 6,the yield per warhead reduce into sub kiloton range making nukes practically useless as there are conventional bombs which have yield close to a kiloton) but could carry less than 3 with countermeasures .An normal MRBM would be unable to carry any countermeasures.Dummy warheads,Chaff and reflectors occupy space and have weight.An actively maneuvering warhead would require inbuilt supply of electrophile fluid which would would disperse ion field that is created around a warhead during reentry thus allowing it radar guided navigation thus increasing weight.Even after this effectiveness of countermeasures is doubted.US radars runs algorithm which could predict trajectory of all warheads thus separating dummy from rest.Radars could differentiate between warheads and chaff/balloons.It only needs a supercomputer powerful enough to run those algorithms which every country who has a missile defense including India has ability to construct. Maneuvering warhead is susceptible to ECM.Thus countermeasure which could be theoretically deployed only by MIRV'd missiles have their limitation.


3.Radars used with ABM would not be kept at border but deep inside the territory of targeted nation ,probably even close to the target(US is bulding radar facility in poland which is far away from russian border).Pakistan does not have capability to carry SEAD operations 500-600 Km from it's border.To attack a site in Delhi it has to go through the whole gauntlet of IAF and Air defense batteries which is out of pakistani capability.It would be much wiser to carry a one way mission to nuke delhi using nuke equipped planes than a SEAD mission whose efficacy in best case scenario would be doubtful.


AhaseebA,

mostly true, but based on IF.

IF India has reliable MIRVS. That's a big big IF like IF Indians can reach outer solar system, then everything are off the bets and all bets are off.

Russia, who controls Agni's guidance system,turnkey hardware, materials used, reliablity issue and guideance service ( Russia GLOSASS? ), will not be stupid enough to allow India get MIRV full tech, make no mistake about it. But some Russia defence firms will use the idea to milk more cows from DRDO in the coming years.

Heck even Russia would sell it, the US, China and other members of UNDC wouldn't allow it happen.

Working hard for 50 cent comrade?????

very solid analysis of India's capabilities. I really doubt India has the basic research to produce a modern ICBM. I'm certain that India is not capable of miniaturize warheads without testing for MIRV. So you are correct above.

Circle jerking in full swing
 
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ashok 321,

how about show me the proof that Russan nukes are fake or F-22's key tech producers are xyz factories, etc?

... no proof there since those info are classified. So are any Russia to India key tech sales.

But if you have IQ beyond 82, you can bet that those nukes are not fake since it's common knowledge, likewise which tech india is capable of and which is not according to its current and forseeable scientific AND industrial sophistication.


the following are common knowledge:

india has no domestic industry sophiticated enough to design and produce advanced laser gyros that are capable of guiding agni series;

super hard alloys and (anti)super high temp alloys of agni V (and other series, too) are all Made-in-Russia, since India doesn't have high precision tech to produce them. In fact only a handful of countries (Germany and Japan included)in the world having the related advanced heavy industries can produce these items.


hi tech (anti)super high temp materials of the critical 2nd and 3rd stage shells of Agni V ( the 1st stage was basic carbon fiber - made-in-India) are imported from either Russia or France, Russia most likely. No country other than UNSC 5 has this matericals science tech, Japan and Germany aside.

the engine fuel, the basic 1st gen fuel though, of agni V, is imported from Russia.

last time i checked India has no global/regional positional sats system on top, so it uses and will use either GPS, or Russian GLOSASS, or Beidou :rofl:, when required.

...need more?

now, i hope it's the last time i see u here? goodbye, and don't make a scene will ya?

and the Chinese missiles are guided by USA... :woot:

as Russia would not provide access to Gloasass military signals to China, so to attack US China would use GPS...:rofl:

the Chinese Beidou do not have global coverage and only covers China and some regional areas.
 
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ashok 321,

how about show me the proof that Russan nukes are fake or F-22's key tech producers are xyz factories, etc?

... no proof there since those info are classified. So are any Russia to India key tech sales.

But if you have IQ beyond 82, you can bet that those nukes are not fake since it's common knowledge, likewise which tech india is capable of and which is not according to its current and forseeable scientific AND industrial sophistication.


the following are common knowledge:

india has no domestic industry sophiticated enough to design and produce advanced laser gyros that are capable of guiding agni series;

super hard alloys and (anti)super high temp alloys of agni V (and other series, too) are all Made-in-Russia, since India doesn't have high precision tech to produce them. In fact only a handful of countries (Germany and Japan included)in the world having the related advanced heavy industries can produce these items.


hi tech (anti)super high temp materials of the critical 2nd and 3rd stage shells of Agni V ( the 1st stage was basic carbon fiber - made-in-India) are imported from either Russia or France, Russia most likely. No country other than UNSC 5 has this matericals science tech, Japan and Germany aside.

the engine fuel, the basic 1st gen fuel though, of agni V, is imported from Russia.

last time i checked India has no global/regional positional sats system on top, so it uses and will use either GPS, or Russian GLOSASS, or Beidou :rofl:, when required.

...need more?

now, i hope it's the last time i see u here? goodbye, and don't make a scene will ya?

Everything China has ever produced is a cheap , low quality copy of something better. Everything from your fighter jets , to missiles is a Russian copy.
 
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In that case 6000 Km is minimum range(with 2.5 ton payload.)

It's max range would be around 6,500-6,800 KM.


Hi guys stop trolling. Neither A5 has 50 ton weight nor it has 5000 KM range. A5 is a missile of 26 ton weight with a range of Attlee 8000 Km as correctly pointed out by Chinese scientist. Range of Indian Missiles are deliberately understated for diplomatic reason. A3 in itself is just 22 ton ICBM. A5 is much more than that.

All Composite A5 with Much higher range is in Making.
 
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Hi guys stop trolling. Neither A5 has 50 ton weight nor it has 5000 KM range. A5 is a missile of 26 ton weight with a range of Attlee 8000 Km as correctly pointed out by Chinese scientist. Range of Indian Missiles are deliberately understated for diplomatic reason. A3 in itself is just 22 ton ICBM. A5 is much more than that.

All Composite A5 with Much higher range is in Making.

Suggested by PKS, I believe.

I bought his argument and started therad on it, but many senior members refuted his claim.
 
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Suggested by PKS, I believe.

I bought his argument and started therad on it, but many senior members refuted his claim.


These so called Senior members are a bit conservative some time. In case of Agni III, Tessy Thomas herself has said that that its weight is reduced to 22 tons. Agni V was supposed to be heavier by 1 ton. How can agni V can be of 5 tons of weight? Chinese scientists had rightly pointed out that A5 has 9000 KM of Range. WIKI quotes A3 s range as 4500 KM with 2.5 tons of Pay load. So A V with a range of just 5000 KM is a simple BS. I have heared Saraswat saying that Av's range can Be increased. He said " You can increase it upto 6000, or 7000 Km or more."
 
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AGNI-VI: Intercontinental Ballistic Boost ~ Arthashastra - Indian Defense & Space

proxy


India boasts of an excellent non-proliferation record and that it has engaged intermittently with the international community on such issues, the US had openly endorsed India's ICBM development ambitions since it stood in dark contrast to states racing to acquire advanced ballistic missile technologies harmful to US interests. The lack of US condemnation of India's missile test demonstrates that the US is comfortable with the Indian program in the nuclear and missile fields and appreciates India's need to meet the emerging strategic challenge posed by rising China. Besides, it is also entirely imperative that India breaks away out of the regional context as the country's sphere of influence is growing and it needs the capability to match its sphere of global influence.
The Government of India had not considered the development of an ICBM with a range of 10,000 km or more. However, speculations of an ongoing program for a longer range ICBM resurfaced in 2011. Some reports since the late 1990s claimed that the ICBM is already code named "Surya". It is also known that the government had not given serious weight to the necessity for an ICBM. Since India is not a signatory to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), the Indian missile program is not limited by any treaty commitment to cap the development of long range ICBM. There have been also occasional hypothesis that, despite India being a non-signatory to MTCR, there is a voluntary moratorium on developing missiles beyond the range of 5,000 km probably owing to US & NATO pressure.

The important AGNI-VI Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) which is expected to feature Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles (MIRV) capabilities has not been approved by the government. The scams & policy paralysis stricken erstwhileUPA government dillydallied its approval which was one among the many it procrastinated with regard to projects of national security & importance.
Despite this impediment DRDO has decided on the missile specifications and enhanced capabilities and proceeding as per plan, once the ongoing Agni-V program concludes DRDO is confident that the present dispensation will sanction the program and allocate funds. In addition, there has been considerable speculation worldwide about this futuristic cutting-edge missile development program after the clinical success of the AGNI-V.
Agni-VI will be a three-stage, solid fuel ICBM which will carry a massive three-tonne warhead, thrice the weight of current Agni missiles have carried so far. This will enable the missile to launch multiple nuclear warheads with each warhead striking a different target alternatively, separated by hundreds of kilometers, two or more warheads can be assigned to one target and can perform evasive maneuvers while hurtling down towards its target, confusing enemy air defence systems that will try to intercept them mid-air. MIRVs ensure a credible second strike capability even with few missiles.

DRDO technicians in Hyderabad integrating AGNI Missiles

Technological Challenges
Multiple Warhead Technology


DRDO is at an advanced stage of integrating warhead technologies, but one notable challenge is building a booster rocket that can propel a three-tonne payload to targets 10,000 kilometres away. The payload weight is comparably more than what a GSLV can launch. The missile should be able to deploy decoys and chaffs to evade air defense systems.
Weapons Delivery
Analyzing a ballistic trajectory is a simple physics problem, but there is big difference betweem analysis and implementation. Recording the necessary data, rapidly analyzing it, combined with ever changing variables, to determine the precise moment to release a warhead so that it hits a specific target 8-10 thousand miles away, is not a simple task. Therefore, dispersing nuclear warheads is another major technological challenge.
Miniaturization
Miniaturization of nuclear and thermonuclear weapons as has been obtained to fit the nose cone spatial shape of Agni-VI missile.
Support Structures
The building blocks from boosters to radars, seekers and sophisticated mission control centers are currently available. DRDO had been able to develop key Radio Frequency seeker technologies for missiles, it has since indigenously perfected this technology, and digital processing during the missile's boost, mid-course and terminal phase is based on DRDO’s own software.
Mobility
Agni-VI must be compact and road mobile, this can be achieved by building the first stage with composites , which is expected to weigh around 40-tons. This is a technical challenge but DRDO has the capability in lightweight composites. The road mobile Agni-VI would also have stringent limits on its length since it must be carried on a standard size trailer that can move from one part of the country to another, turn on narrow roads, cross bridges and climb heights. As the payload weight increases, it will require more advanced technologies to keep the missile's length to technically acceptable limits.
Weight & Dimension

Harnessing maximum performance from smaller rockets also becomes especially important in submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) version, which cannot be no longer than 13 metres so as to fit into the cramped confines of a submarines. This holds true to even the K-4 "Sagarika" SLBM for the country's Arihant-Class, Chakra-Class Nuclear-Propelled ballistic missile attack submarines (SSBNs).

Conclusion
Until April 2012, the existence of an ICBM program was unclear and was never officially acknowledged by the DRDO. However, in the DRDO newsletter of May 2011, while describing the achievements of a recently promoted scientist, it revealed that he headed a program code named A6, which will be an ICBM with a range in between 6,000-10,000 km and like some versions of its precursor Agni V, it will be capable of underwater launch with MIRV.
“ Chief Controller R&D (Missiles and Strategic Systems)
Shri Avinash Chander, Distinguished Scientist, Programme Director, SFD and Director, Advanced Systems Laboratory has been appointed as Chief Controller R&D (Missiles and Strategic Systems) wef 3 May 2011. He is an eminent scientist in the field of Missiles and is the Chief Designer of Long-range missile system, with specific contribution in Agni programme management, mission design, guidance, navigation, simulation and terminal guidance. He has unique achievement of delivering and deploying three long-range Agni missile weapon systems viz, A1, A2 and A3.
It is evident from history that there exists a close concurrence between a space and a missile program as was the case with both Soviet Union and America, China and India have also pursued the same path. The interchangeability of several technologies between the two entities suit there sustained development, but the more pronounced beneficiary is undeniably the missile programs. Though the Indian missile program has matured to world-class levels it is mastering some of the aforementioned technologies that will make MIRV integration as a holistic system achievable.
 
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Basic Question- How confident are we that our nukes will actually work! If we see the number of tests done by nations, the Americans and Russians have conducted 100s of tests each. We have conducted 4 very low yield tests and there queries still about their success. We need an EFFECTIVE deterrent. If the scientists indicate-there should be more higher yield in the 100kt class tests conducted. This is not a joke. This is life or death.
 
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@Oscar @Chak Bamu Why is this kind of non sense tolerated here ? This is way too much BS here.

If you report the post . It gets deleted immediately .

why are you even involving these people who may not have time or will to take action .

as long as objectionable post is removed , you should be content .
why don't you just report the post and get it deleted .

By replying or quoting the post you just perpetuate it .
 
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as long as objectionable post is removed , you should be content .
why don't you just report the post and get it deleted .

By replying or quoting the post you just perpetuate it .

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.
 
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These so called Senior members are a bit conservative some time. In case of Agni III, Tessy Thomas herself has said that that its weight is reduced to 22 tons. Agni V was supposed to be heavier by 1 ton. How can agni V can be of 5 tons of weight? Chinese scientists had rightly pointed out that A5 has 9000 KM of Range. WIKI quotes A3 s range as 4500 KM with 2.5 tons of Pay load. So A V with a range of just 5000 KM is a simple BS. I have heared Saraswat saying that Av's range can Be increased. He said " You can increase it upto 6000, or 7000 Km or more."

She was reffering to empty weight.
 
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She was reffering to empty weight.


What empty weight? Empty weight of missiles are hardly 15% of the gross weight.

Though the weight of missile is 50 tons, empty weight shall not be more than 7 tons.
 
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What empty weight? Empty weight of missiles are hardly 15% of the gross weight.

Though the weight of missile is 50 tons, empty weight shall not be more than 7 tons.
I am confused now ..empty weight means weight of missile without warhead or they take out fuel weight too ?
 
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I am confused now ..empty weight means weight of missile without warhead or they take out fuel weight too ?

most probably @IND151 was talking about missile weight minus fuel weight .
 
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