After Meeting Rajnath Singh, Taslima Nasreen Granted Residential Visa

[Chronos]

"For a change?" A change from what?

I have read most of her works (and columns), and I cannot recall any instance of her insulting hindus in particular, which is why I asked you. If you are aware of any such writings, do let me know.

And yes, she has the right to live in peace, even if she did insult hindus or muslims through her books. The GoI should grant her permanent residence or citizenship, if we want to claim a moral high ground over our neighbours regarding freedom of speech and expression. It was shameful that the govt in West Bengal and the central govt kept shifting her from one place to another, and refused to extend her visa. Yes she is safer in India than in Bangladesh or Pakistan, but are those the standards we should evaluate ourselves by?

Also, in your initial post, if you were suggesting that only people who insult muslims or islam get ill treated in India, you are plain wrong. MF Hussain had to live the last years of his life in exile, did he not? Banning Wendy Dorniger's book...there are plenty of examples where individual rights get curbed on the pretext that somebody's religious sentiments got hurt or will get hurt.

thank you for expressing what I had to say in an even more articulate manner.

I don't see you very much here, but I like the erudition of your posts

 

[axisofevil]

Gee look at that. Congress denied her visa yet BIG BAD EVIL MODI GIVES HER ONE. Food for thought Congress supporters..

Stop raking up religious sentiment. If we want India or the world to grow, ppl need to really allow freedom of speech, regardless of sentiments being hurt. It allows for serious introspection and growth!

thank you for expressing what I had to say in an even more articulate manner.

I don't see you very much here, but I like the erudition of your posts

Come on guy, stop being a sucker for love.

 

[KalaGhoda]

suitable haters gonna hate/gif

 

[Chronos]

Gee look at that. Congress denied her visa yet BIG BAD EVIL MODI GIVES HER ONE. Food for thought Congress supporters..

Stop raking up religious sentiment. If we want India or the world to grow, ppl need to really allow freedom of speech, regardless of sentiments being hurt. It allows for serious introspection and growth!





Come on guy, stop being a sucker for love.

I am not the sharpest tool in tool box, But I am not stupid.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

"For a change?" A change from what?

I have read most of her works (and columns), and I cannot recall any instance of her insulting hindus in particular, which is why I asked you. If you are aware of any such writings, do let me know.

And yes, she has the right to live in peace, even if she did insult hindus or muslims through her books. The GoI should grant her permanent residence or citizenship, if we want to claim a moral high ground over our neighbours regarding freedom of speech and expression. It was shameful that the govt in West Bengal and the central govt kept shifting her from one place to another, and refused to extend her visa. Yes she is safer in India than in Bangladesh or Pakistan, but are those the standards we should evaluate ourselves by?

Also, in your initial post, if you were suggesting that only people who insult muslims or islam get ill treated in India, you are plain wrong. MF Hussain had to live the last years of his life in exile, did he not? Banning Wendy Dorniger's book...there are plenty of examples where individual rights get curbed on the pretext that somebody's religious sentiments got hurt or will get hurt.

Ummm MF Hussain had no death threats on him. There was a civil lawsuit against him. Wendy Doniger's book is not banned in India. There is a hell and heaven difference between cases like these and Ms Nasreen.

On the other hand, getting offended is your right. But the course of action you take to remedy it is what matters. Give a fatwa and physically assault or take it to court - the choice is yours.

 

[ayesha.a]

Ummm MF Hussain had no death threats on him. There was a civil lawsuit against him. Wendy Doniger's book is not banned in India. There is a hell and heaven difference between cases like these and Ms Nasreen.

On the other hand, getting offended is your right. But the course of action you take to remedy it is what matters. Give a fatwa and physically assault or take it to court - the choice is yours.

Sorry for the late response.

I shall give two separate replies, both of which (I believe) are independently true.

Reply 1) MF Hussain had plenty of death threats levelled against him, which forced him to flee the country. You are being dishonest (either willfully or inadvertently, I don't know) when you assert the contrary. There are plenty of sources to verify that fact:


M.F. Husain, celebrated artist, passes away in London - The Hindu
Manmohan Singh on MF Hussain's death - News Oneindia
MF Husain: the barefoot 'Picasso' of Indian art | Art and design | The Observer
Prominent Indian artist MF Hussain dies - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English
Artist MF Husain dies in London

And he is not the only person who has had his life threatened or liberties curtailed by hindu groups. Many famous people, as well as not so famous people have been threatened and harassed into submission or have had to flee due to fear of hindu groups. So your allegation that it is only when muslim sentiments are hurt do such things happen, is plain wrong.

(To clarify, it is my conviction that it should not happen in either case - no matter which religious sentiments are "hurt", freedom of speech and expression should be upheld.)

Reply 2) Now for a larger picture. This response is not just to you, but many others who think that persecuting somebody through courts is OK whereas persecuting him through mob violence is not. Whether our society curbs a person's freedom via courts or via threats of mob violence, the end result is the same - his or her voice is silenced. When a mob or extremist groups intimidate an artist or author and resort to physical violence, the rest of us can at least distance ourselves from them - we can say with full conviction, that we have nothing to do with those people. But can we say the same thing when our law courts silence a person? In a democracy, we are the government. The courts of law mete out rulings on our behalf. The lawmakers make laws on our behalf. So when the legal system itself stifles a person's freedom of speech or expression, we cannot distance ourselves from that act. And make no mistake - the diktats of a court of law are also backed up by threat of physical force. If a person does not obey a court order, he or she will land in prison, the police force will go after him or her. The state's diktat is also backed up by the threat of force. That's not a bad thing in and of itself - there is no other way. But pretending that a law court curbing somebody's freedom is nobler than a mob doing the same, is rather specious.

I hope I have been clear about what I wanted to say. Unfortunately I do not have the time (or the expertise) to write it more lucidly.

Bonus reply 3) You haven't told me what Ms TN has written that is specifically offensive to hindus. Maybe you have not really encountered any such instance. If so, please clarify that.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Sorry for the late response.

I shall give two separate replies, both of which (I believe) are independently true.

Reply 1) MF Hussain had plenty of death threats levelled against him, which forced him to flee the country. You are being dishonest (either willfully or inadvertently, I don't know) when you assert the contrary. There are plenty of sources to verify that fact:


And he is not the only person who has had his life threatened or liberties curtailed by hindu groups. Many famous people, as well as not so famous people have been threatened and harassed into submission or have had to flee due to fear of hindu groups. So your allegation that it is only when muslim sentiments are hurt do such things happen, is plain wrong.

(To clarify, it is my conviction that it should not happen in either case - no matter which religious sentiments are "hurt", freedom of speech and expression should be upheld.)

Reply 2) Now for a larger picture. This response is not just to you, but many others who think that persecuting somebody through courts is OK whereas persecuting him through mob violence is not. Whether our society curbs a person's freedom via courts or via threats of mob violence, the end result is the same - his or her voice is silenced. When a mob or extremist groups intimidate an artist or author and resort to physical violence, the rest of us can at least distance ourselves from them - we can say with full conviction, that we have nothing to do with those people. But can we say the same thing when our law courts silence a person? In a democracy, we are the government. The courts of law mete out rulings on our behalf. The lawmakers make laws on our behalf. So when the legal system itself stifles a person's freedom of speech or expression, we cannot distance ourselves from that act. And make no mistake - the diktats of a court of law are also backed up by threat of physical force. If a person does not obey a court order, he or she will land in prison, the police force will go after him or her. The state's diktat is also backed up by the threat of force. That's not a bad thing in and of itself - there is no other way. But pretending that a law court curbing somebody's freedom is nobler than a mob doing the same, is rather specious.

I hope I have been clear about what I wanted to say. Unfortunately I do not have the time (or the expertise) to write it more lucidly.

Bonus reply 3) You haven't told me what Ms TN has written that is specifically offensive to hindus. Maybe you have not really encountered any such instance. If so, please clarify that.

Epic Thumbs Down.

He escaped India because he preferred to be a fugitive than face the charges and defend his work (may because there was nothing to defend in the first place). And this was not the first time either. Kamal Hasan also faced similar threats. He was saddened but stayed back. Hussain's family lives in India without police protection anyway.Perhaps the threat givers got busy killing Muslims in Syria or Iraq.

Secondly, I totally support going the legal route to shut someone up. I am no moral guardian and honestly do not care about what standards you wish to abide by. You want to abuse Hindu/Sikh/Jain/Buddhist faiths and get away with it? Not going to happen in India. Let me make it clearer - we won't let that happen.

And my observations of Hindu Muslim equivalence have been contrary to the experience you have had perhaps. In that case good for you. And I am not being dishonest. Only brutal. Try drawing... ah leave it.

Read 'Selected Columns' by her, if you wish to know. I won't spoonfeed. If you think there's nothing offensive, fine. Bad Taslima bad

I would recommend you go preach a critical sermon to a Hindu crowd after prayers and then try something similar to a Mohammedan crowd after the Friday prayers. RIP in advance.

@Roybot

 

[historysheeter]

"For a change?" A change from what?

Also, in your initial post, if you were suggesting that only people who insult muslims or islam get ill treated in India, you are plain wrong. MF Hussain had to live the last years of his life in exile, did he not? Banning Wendy Dorniger's book...there are plenty of examples where individual rights get curbed on the pretext that somebody's religious sentiments got hurt or will get hurt.

MF Hussain himself chose not to face Indian laws and went into self imposed exile.
Wendy Dorniger was not banned but the publisher withdrew when someone raised some issue about her book before it was published.
Never came across Taslima Nasreen hurting hurting Hindus or even Muslims but she has been badly rubbing or bruising politicians, celebrities and fanatics with her words. She has all the ingredients to be an Indian citizen.

 

[ayesha.a]

Epic Thumbs Down.

He escaped India because he preferred to be a fugitive than face the charges and defend his work (may because there was nothing to defend in the first place). And this was not the first time either. Kamal Hasan also faced similar threats. He was saddened but stayed back. Hussain's family lives in India without police protection anyway.Perhaps the threat givers got busy killing Muslims in Syria or Iraq.

Secondly, I totally support going the legal route to shut someone up. I am no moral guardian and honestly do not care about what standards you wish to abide by. You want to abuse Hindu/Sikh/Jain/Buddhist faiths and get away with it? Not going to happen in India. Let me make it clearer - we won't let that happen.

And my observations of Hindu Muslim equivalence have been contrary to the experience you have had perhaps. In that case good for you. And I am not being dishonest. Only brutal. Try drawing... ah leave it.

Read 'Selected Columns' by her, if you wish to know. I won't spoonfeed. If you think there's nothing offensive, fine. Bad Taslima bad

I would recommend you go preach a critical sermon to a Hindu crowd after prayers and then try something similar to a Mohammedan crowd after the Friday prayers. RIP in advance.

@Roybot

Ah, I understand the problem here. You are looking at it as a hindu v/s muslim thing, and comparing which group is more intolerant. I was under the impression that you are above that habit, but maybe I was mistaken. Anyway, I wrote what I wrote purely from the POV of human rights and freedoms, and how I want my country's govt to act. Comparing hindu and muslim intolerance was not what I had in mind.

If it makes you feel good, you can hear this from me - In today's world, islamic societies are much more intolerant than societies based on other religions. In general there is less freedom of speech in islamic countries than in non islamic ones, when religious matters are concerned.

There, I have said what you wanted to hear. So in future, please spare me from these sermons of "Try opposing a "Mohammedan" crowd and your head will be chopped off..."

And regarding that part where you said that you will not allow anybody to insult hinduism/sikhis/jainism/whatever: Yes I know that. I am well aware than Indians are insecure about their faiths, and anybody making fun of their faith is seen as a threat to their faith. And I know the reason, perhaps far more than you do - ridicule and satire and laughter are the most powerful weapons against a belief that is held without the foundation of reason. People fear that if other people are allowed to make fun of and laugh about their beliefs, then some people will start losing faith in that belief. And that is quite true.

But many countries do have more freedom than Indians do - in the US or most of the western world, nobody can be arrested for making fun of Jesus or other religious figures. Very famous movies and other forms of satire have done so repeatedly. Monty Python's 'Life of Brian' ridicules Jesus so thoroughly that a similar film about hindu or muslim beliefs or gods/prophets would not have passed the censor board in India. It is a pity that Indians feel so insecure that they have to prevent other people from laughing at their faiths, to be able to hold on to those faiths.

About that "spoonfeeding" bit : You made a statement, and I (very politely) asked you to confirm it. That is not spoonfeeding. That is substantiating your statement.

Now if you are interested in discussing Taslima Nasreen or freedom to criticize in general, I will be happy to do so, time permitting. But if you only want to talk about which religion is more intolerant, then I am not interested - I have already made it clear that I agree with you on that.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Ah, I understand the problem here. You are looking at it as a hindu v/s muslim thing, and comparing which group is more intolerant. I was under the impression that you are above that habit, but maybe I was mistaken. Anyway, I wrote what I wrote purely from the POV of human rights and freedoms, and how I want my country's govt to act. Comparing hindu and muslim intolerance was not what I had in mind.

If it makes you feel good, you can hear this from me - In today's world, islamic societies are much more intolerant than societies based on other religions. In general there is less freedom of speech in islamic countries than in non islamic ones, when religious matters are concerned.

There, I have said what you wanted to hear. So in future, please spare me from these sermons of "Try opposing a "Mohammedan" crowd and your head will be chopped off..."

And regarding that part where you said that you will not allow anybody to insult hinduism/sikhis/jainism/whatever: Yes I know that. I am well aware than Indians are insecure about their faiths, and anybody making fun of their faith is seen as a threat to their faith. And I know the reason, perhaps far more than you do - ridicule and satire and laughter are the most powerful weapons against a belief that is held without the foundation of reason. People fear that if other people are allowed to make fun of and laugh about their beliefs, then some people will start losing faith in that belief. And that is quite true.

But many countries do have more freedom than Indians do - in the US or most of the western world, nobody can be arrested for making fun of Jesus or other religious figures. Very famous movies and other forms of satire have done so repeatedly. Monty Python's 'Life of Brian' ridicules Jesus so thoroughly that a similar film about hindu or muslim beliefs or gods/prophets would not have passed the censor board in India. It is a pity that Indians feel so insecure that they have to prevent other people from laughing at their faiths, to be able to hold on to those faiths.

About that "spoonfeeding" bit : You made a statement, and I (very politely) asked you to confirm it. That is not spoonfeeding. That is substantiating your statement.

Now if you are interested in discussing Taslima Nasreen or freedom to criticize in general, I will be happy to do so, time permitting. But if you only want to talk about which religion is more intolerant, then I am not interested - I have already made it clear that I agree with you on that.

This is a good post, the first I am honestly appreciating. Will read it later... got some work to do now. Sorry.

 

[Avik274]

Very good step of govt.

 

[Sahasranama]

...
And regarding that part where you said that you will not allow anybody to insult hinduism/sikhis/jainism/whatever: Yes I know that. I am well aware than Indians are insecure about their faiths, and anybody making fun of their faith is seen as a threat to their faith. And I know the reason, perhaps far more than you do - ridicule and satire and laughter are the most powerful weapons against a belief that is held without the foundation of reason. People fear that if other people are allowed to make fun of and laugh about their beliefs, then some people will start losing faith in that belief. And that is quite true.

But many countries do have more freedom than Indians do - in the US or most of the western world, nobody can be arrested for making fun of Jesus or other religious figures. Very famous movies and other forms of satire have done so repeatedly. Monty Python's 'Life of Brian' ridicules Jesus so thoroughly that a similar film about hindu or muslim beliefs or gods/prophets would not have passed the censor board in India. It is a pity that Indians feel so insecure that they have to prevent other people from laughing at their faiths, to be able to hold on to those faiths.

Your reasons are laughable but considering the epic ignorance and prejudice you have displayed against Hinduism, it is not surprising.

Hinduism and Buddhism and Jainism are one of the few religions that is based upon Logic and rational thought.

The ENTIRE Hindu philosophy is based on Logic called Nyaya.

In fact the Hindu school of Logic and Greek Logic is the only two schools of logic that is recognized globally. ........... but your ignorance and prejudice is duly noted.

The chaturkoti logic first used in the Rig veda was later adapted by Buddhism and forms the foundation of Buddhist Logic called Pramana.


But continue with your rant ........... its fun to watch you play equal equal with Hinduism and Islam. LOL.