Afghan refugees in Pakistan fear deportation.

[Secur]

I find that cleaning up a thread doesn't stop people from posting troll comments.

Personally? I want to help them, but right now they're too much of a burden on the economy. Unless the international community is willing to pay for their stay, Pakistan has every right to ask them to leave and should...economically speaking, of course.

Now, if we're talking about international politics, Pakistan has no choice but to take care of them and repatriate them according to the UN's plan. Pakistan cannot force the refugees to leave, and nor should it. Why do I say this? It would tarnish Pakistan's already poor standing in the world. If we Pakistanis are honest with ourselves, we must admit that Pakistan's name has become a joke in the world. If we want to be taken seriously, we must show that we're willing to do our part in the international community, this is the only way to get our respect back, and this includes taking care of the millions of refugees in Pakistan. We simply have no other choice.

tl;dr? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I know that part and when the conversation has diverted in that way , there's nothing really that can be done about this .

Think of it from the nation's point of view then , can we afford to help them when we are finding it hard to help ourselves , my friend ? Afghans have proven again and again that they aren't willing to mend their ways , even today their so called Govt of Kabul never misses an opportunity to spew venom against Pakistan . The International community is not willing to do anything , other than to do abandon Afghanistan whilst keeping a token force in few bases around the country . They have got their interests in mind and so should Pakistan .

No , mate . Trust me , we have come at a point where we have nothing to lose by further tarnishing of the country's image in the International arena . The difficulties we face today , due to their stay in the country with involvement in crimes and worst anti-state activities is a matter of grave concern for us . Run the foreign policy on emotions with my dear countrymen willing to be ' more Arab than Arabs themselves ' , than on interests and you have got the recipe for disaster . I still think that we can get no worse by forcing the ' refugees ' to return to their country , deport them .

But you are right in your arguments . We are caught between the devil and deep sea here .

 

[A1Kaid]

I think they should be deported for the betterment of Pakistan and Afghanistan. It will also help increase the pro-Pakistan population in Afghanistan by sending a million Afghans back (some of them do consider themselves Pakistanis by now). However, I think Pakistan should be selected if an Afghan refugee is highly educated and has a useful professional skill that Afghan refugee maybe given exemption from deportation, but the rank and file should certainly return home.

 

[SHAMK9]

However, I think Pakistan should be selected if an Afghan refugee is highly educated and has a useful professional skill that Afghan refugee maybe given exemption from deportation, but the rank and file should certainly return home.

Well for starters, there arent many. Educated and elites left for Western and European countries.

 

[A1Kaid]

Well for starters, there arent many. Educated and elites left for Western and European countries.

True, probably less than 2% of them Afghan refugee population fits that criteria.

 

[pakistani342]

Just think of them as human beings. I don't know what would I've done if I were in the same situation as the Afghans are today. If someone is treating you bad and you do the same in return, what difference is left between you and them?

Many Pakistanis go to KSA, UAE, US/UK etc, they're being treated severely then slaves (most of them), the west termed or see almost every Pakistani as terrorists, yet, they've never thrown them out of their countries, instead they've accepted them in their society to give them a chance and an opportunity to become a bunch of civilised Pakistanis. What have we given to Afghanis apart from treating them like animals? And yet we expect them to be nice to us. Earning respect is an art, not a gift from God.

Seriously have you lived abroad? - I've lived in several countries in the middle east, far east and now in the west - Pakistanis get deported for minor infractions including from the US. You don't have any idea of what you are talking about.

And yes, I was a second class citizen in an Arab country - but to this day I am grateful to the enhanced opportunity that country provided me as are other Pakistanis - Let me explain what a second class citizen means:
1. It means if I got into a civil dispute with an Arab the court would hold his word against mine just because I was not an Arab
2. It means I had to stand in special lines
3. It means if a White Westerner showed up he or she got to skip the line
4. It meant watching a police man throw my father's documents on the floor while his family watched helplessly
5. It meant that I could not enroll in any professional department at the University (engineering or medicine) even when I had more than sufficient grades

But to this day I have always wished my host countries and their people well and thought of them as my second homes and their people as my own.

I understood then as I understand now (with my hair greying) that I came from very little and that I would not be there if the host country did not provide me a better future.

So please do not lecture us on how Pakistanis who live in the diaspora haven't paid their dues. We are nothing like the Afghans. We understand that despite imperfections the guest counties did give us a better future than what our own country could. I have never heard a Pakistani spew 1% of the bile that Afghans spew at us.

I say if the US, UK, KSA, UAE, Malaysia can deport Pakistanis for not following the law or when they feel we do not help the local economy by reducing quotas, Pakistan can do it too.

I say we expel the Afghan refugees - have you every heard an Afghan be thankful for what Pakistanis did for them. They can go to India - I believe they have great love for India and Indians for them.

 

[A-Team]

Sir I thought you knew better than this and at times I wanted to have an objective discussion with you on matters related to Afghanistan but owing to busy schedule I at times cant reply but the way you have depicted all Afghans as ungrateful creatures is very uncalled for. I presume that you may had bad experiences with some bad apples or you follow a bunch of youngs on the streets of Kabul protesting against the Pakistani establishments policy but I have never seen an Afghan actually hate a Pakistani just because he or she is a Pakistani. Please don’t judge all Afghans just because some folks on Facebook spew poison about ISI or their perceived interference in the Afghan matters, so let’s a make a distinction of Afghans attitude towards the Pakistani establishments of meddling in the Afghan affairs. I welcome you to visit Afghanistan especially Kabul and believe it or not Pakistanis are treated like brothers, this may sound cliché but a number of Pakistani engineers worked for me and the one message that I get from them is that what the media shows is quite different than the kind of welcome they get on the ground. So Sir I suggest that before you project or judge a whole nation as ungrateful welcome you to visit things on the ground.
So in short Afghans are grateful for the generosity shown towards by the Pakistani people and they will not forget that but the thing that ticks them is that yes we are grateful but please stop supporting non-state actors who are killing Afghans on the daily basis, who destroy schools and ripping the very foundation of the Afghan society.

So here is a question for you, I see that you have spent time in Arab countries and are grateful towards them but how will you feel if the same country or policy elites support groups that will kills Pakistanis on daily basis, destroy your schools, kill your teachers, kill your children, WHAT will be your feeling towards them then????

So please do not lecture us on how Pakistanis who live in the diaspora haven't paid their dues. We are nothing like the Afghans. We understand that despite imperfections the guest counties did give us a better future than what our own country could. I have never heard a Pakistani spew 1% of the bile that Afghans spew at us.

I say if the US, UK, KSA, UAE, Malaysia can deport Pakistanis for not following the law or when they feel we do not help the local economy by reducing quotas, Pakistan can do it too.

I say we expel the Afghan refugees - have you every heard an Afghan be thankful for what Pakistanis did for them. They can go to India - I believe they have great love for India and Indians for them.

 

[pakistani342]

Sir I thought you knew better than this and at times I wanted to have an objective discussion with you on matters related to Afghanistan but owing to busy schedule I at times cant reply but the way you have depicted all Afghans as ungrateful creatures is very uncalled for. I presume that you may had bad experiences with some bad apples or you follow a bunch of youngs on the streets of Kabul protesting against the Pakistani establishments policy but I have never seen an Afghan actually hate a Pakistani just because he or she is a Pakistani. Please don’t judge all Afghans just because some folks on Facebook spew poison about ISI or their perceived interference in the Afghan matters, so let’s a make a distinction of Afghans attitude towards the Pakistani establishments of meddling in the Afghan affairs. I welcome you to visit Afghanistan especially Kabul and believe it or not Pakistanis are treated like brothers, this may sound cliché but a number of Pakistani engineers worked for me and the one message that I get from them is that what the media shows is quite different than the kind of welcome they get on the ground. So Sir I suggest that before you project or judge a whole nation as ungrateful welcome you to visit things on the ground.
So in short Afghans are grateful for the generosity shown towards by the Pakistani people and they will not forget that but the thing that ticks them is that yes we are grateful but please stop supporting non-state actors who are killing Afghans on the daily basis, who destroy schools and ripping the very foundation of the Afghan society.

So here is a question for you, I see that you have spent time in Arab countries and are grateful towards them but how will you feel if the same country or policy elites support groups that will kills Pakistanis on daily basis, destroy your schools, kill your teachers, kill your children, WHAT will be your feeling towards them then????

I'm sorry @A-Team but I don't agree with the points in your post. I've just gotten up and need to tend to business but a few points (I'll try to write more detailed responses later).

0. On a lighter note the only Afghans who have not vented bile at me are the ones who work for me in Pakistan - but they were born in Pakistan to Afghan refugees, educated in Pakistan and most importantly: they work for me - I am curious what they would say if they did not work for me. I wonder if they celebrate when the Pakistani cricket team looses to India - LOL. To be fair, they do not know of my position of Afghans. So I don't doubt what you say about the Pakistanis who work for you but I wonder if politeness and pecking order have not gotten the better of the truth in this case.

1. A quick Google will reveal personal Pakistani narratives about how they are treated in Afghanistan. I'll try to post some later that I think are rather telling. This is how *people* are treated and not their government. For example: all Americans visiting Tehran remark how friendly the Iranian people are towards them - the difference is easily discernible. By contrast, Pakistanis are frisked, beaten, their documents taken away. A common Indian jest is that Pakistanis have to pretend to be Indians in Afghanistan to escape harassment.

2. We almost opened an office in Kabul - primarily analytics work for US NGOs and government agencies but I was told constantly *off the record* that being a Pakistani-American I would be at a disadvantage. To top it off I was discouraged by close Afghan-American friends, one of whom is a royalist, with connections to the former Afghan Ambassador to the US, Said Tayeb Jawad and others.

3. To your question: KSA and Iran have played a proxy war on Pakistan's streets since the 1980s. Have you seen Pakistanis wish the Saudis ill.

4. I suspect Afghan drugs and guns have killed more Pakistanis and inflicted more damage than any Pakistani proxy. Have you seen Pakistanis beat Afghan's en mass - not even close.

5. Afghanistan started this - no Afghan even denies this - thank Serdar Mohammad Daud Khan *Shaheed* - what we see today is just the snowball effect of that. Have you seen Pakistanis burn Afghan flags?

6. Millions of Afghans live in Pakistan - yet an Afghan visa for Pakistanis is extremely difficult to get: so your claim that this has nothing to do with the Pakistani people is questionable.

7. If Afghans were truly grateful towards the Pakistani people they would have moved quickly to establish a visa free regimen for Pakistanis, allowed easy access to Pakistani businesses - Note Pakistani interference re-emerged circa 2006 however Afghans cut Pakistanis out of Afghanistan day one - I think there was no Pakistani representation at the first Bonn conference (I'd appreciate a reference) - And, this hostility permeates all strata of Afghan society.

8. The argument that you can completely separate the Government of Pakistan from its people is false - the Pakistani government is not staffed by people from Mars, and in someways the Pakistani security apparatus is the most democratic set of institutions in Pakistan. It has the son of a Mali, Nai, Muzara, Maulvee, Land lord, Pashtun, Punjabi, Muhajir (I do concede that Sindhis and Balochs are poorly represented).

 

[pakistani342]

@A-Team, two personal anecdotes that you will find interesting:

1. One of my younger cousins grew up in the same Arab land as did I - my memories of childhood are punctuated by images and sounds of his father, my uncle, running various fund raisers - he was active in the Pakistani Embassy School community and I would say a healthy percentage of those fund raisers were for Afghan refugees or Afghan causes in the 1980s.

My cousin like me went the entrepreneurial route, except he work in a very technical niche of civil engineering and his company does work in the gulf, the central Asian republics, Pakistan and has serviced a few jobs even in Djibouti - I asked him a few years ago why he didn't open up shop in Afghanistan given all the construction going on - I offered to help him with the US government procurement process - his reply to me was (something I can still remember - I hope you can understand Urdu):

"Bhaijaan Insaan wahan kaam kary jahan us ki izzat ho"

2. If you remember the 2005 earth quake that hit Pakistan - if you remember it was an extremely traumatic event for the Pakistani people and for me who is of partial Kashmiri heritage, it was extremely personal.

My wife helped raise money and she set up collection boxes at various small South Asian and Muslim businesses as part of her effort.

What was surprising was that only one Afghan business allowed my wife (who herself is a Pashtun from KPK) to place a collection box. At least 5 other Afghan businesses (if my memory serves me right) refused her citing spurious reasons like: well it is against our policy - what was funny to note is that they were openly hosting collection boxes for Afghan causes. Note this is 2005, before any Pakistani interference re-emerged in Afghanistan. Hurt, she eventually gave up trying to approach Afghan businesses.

Note these were businesses that were patronized by Pakistanis and who's staff and owners we knew enough to exchange the regular pleasantries, with.

Some additional facts:
a. I cannot remember if any Indian owned establishment (Hindu, Sikh, Muslim) refused to host the collection boxes and they did collect their fair share of money.
b. The places which raised amongst the most money were Turkish places - sometimes far outstripping collection boxes hosted by Pakistani locations.
c. I do not remember exactly but I have heard that our local Afghan mosque did raise a significant amount of money but I do not know of that first hand or have any information that I would deem credible.

I know these are anecdotes and should be treated as such but I hope you find them an interesting read.

 

[ziaulislam]

Sentimentalities aside, Pakistan is paying to feed them and provide healthcare. They are a drain on your economy. As of November 2012, there were still 1.8 million Afghans living in Pakistan.

Over half of all Afghans living in Pakistan do not have clean drinking water and 63 percent lack effective sanitation. One third of Afghans survive on less than $1 a day. Another third of the population is ranked just above this extreme poverty marker. Maintenance of Law and order is another issue.

Pakistan also paid an environmental price for being a generous host country. Refugees need pastures for their flocks, leading sometimes to the degradation of local ecosystems. Overall, their presence has put an additional pressure on Pakistan’s infrastructure.

even if they leave pakistan they will still acess free health, education to some extent. coz its a free boarder
even today 40% of beds in some major cities hospitals are occupied by afghans

people who live in punjab may not get it. but who will going to give the resources for careing for them??
they have destroyed the already suffering economy of KPK

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Haha... bet thts never going to happen...

 

[RangerPK]

Isn't there a way, we can integrate afghanis born in Pakistan, to be integrated into Pakistani society? Like they identify themselves as Afghan Pakistanis?

 

[That Guy]

Isn't there a way, we can integrate afghanis born in Pakistan, to be integrated into Pakistani society? Like they identify themselves as Afghan Pakistanis?

The financial burden would be too great, because it would force Pakistan to pay for more mouths to feed without any international assistance.

I have always thought that those Afghans that identify themselves as Pakistani, because they were born in Pakistan, should be allowed to stay, but that's clearly unrealistic of me.

 

[RangerPK]

The financial burden would be too great, because it would force Pakistan to pay for more mouths to feed without any international assistance.

I have always thought that those Afghans that identify themselves as Pakistani, because they were born in Pakistan, should be allowed to stay, but that's clearly unrealistic of me.

Well, if land is allocated to them to build their own villages and allowed to grow their own food . make a self sustaining society, they do not have to be a burden to our economy. But the point is, can they be some how integrated in to Pakistani identity as Afghan Pakistanis. Hopefully become patriotic Pakistanis and even join our army as soldiers?

 

[pakistani342]

Well, if land is allocated to them to build their own villages and allowed to grow their own food . make a self sustaining society, they do not have to be a burden to our economy. But the point is, can they be some how integrated in to Pakistani identity as Afghan Pakistanis. Hopefully become patriotic Pakistanis and even join our army as soldiers?

The question is then why should my cousin, who is still a poor farmer in Punjab, not be given a similar allotment of land.

Another way to look at it is why should my cousin be asked to give up part of his birth right - now if my cousin is somehow ok with diluting his birth right or welcomes it then so be it.

I think the Pakistani poor, minorities and disenfranchised should be asked the question: do you want to give tracts of land in Lahore, Karachi, the Federal area and other precious resources to Afghan refugees - if they overwhelmingly say yes then who am I to complain. But I think we all know what their answer to that will be.

As a corollary: privileged Pakistanis or people of Pakistani origin, like myself and possibly most of the people on this forum have no right to dilute the birth right of the Pakistani poor.

 

[That Guy]

Well, if land is allocated to them to build their own villages and allowed to grow their own food . make a self sustaining society, they do not have to be a burden to our economy. But the point is, can they be some how integrated in to Pakistani identity as Afghan Pakistanis. Hopefully become patriotic Pakistanis and even join our army as soldiers?

The problem with that is, why should they be handed this land when Pakistan's current citizens can barely afford to feed themselves. Priorities, my friend, priorities.