Afghan policeman shoots dead five British soldiers

[Ahmad]

This guy is not looking out for the welfare of the Afghanis. He is exploiting their miseries under the Taliban just so he can criticize the US and puff himself up as some hero for 'the oppressed'. Heck...He probably would not recognize one of 'the oppressed' if one were to beg in his face. Do not be surprise if you will find those who claim to be for 'the oppressed' are usually quite well off.

Sir, I am never expecting anything from anybody to do anything for us. all we want is to be left alone. nobody is our friend, not the americans, not pakistan, not russia and no one. america is there not because they care about us. america, just like pakistan and others are badly exploiting/have exploited our situation and took advantage of a country that absolute majority of its population is illitrate. we were used against the russians, they(those countries) bombarded us with puppets after puppets, the killers etc. i do really really wish we didnt make the mistake of fighting the russians. what is the difference between being under the control of russia, pakistan or america? i dont see any difference, they are all the same and foreigners to us, the mujahideen leaders were under control of ISI, the communists were under the control of the soviets, taliban were/are such a valuable assets of pakistan and now americans are there. if we didnt fight the russians, we might have been under their influece and their satelite, but at least our country wouldnt be completely destroyed, not millions and millions of people would be killed and wounded, our society and system not be completely blown up. now if the taliban succed to force the americans leave afghanistan which i really doubt if they be able to do this, what will be next? we will be free from one occupier and be under the control of another one, in this case pakistan? does it really make any difference for us?

 

[deathfromabove]

Blabbering is what these [US] fascists can do, on the ground nothing substantial has been achieved to date. Refer to my earlier posts in this thread.
Purpose of invading Afghanistan was not to free the oppressed but to serve their ulterior motives. World acknowledges this fact but US arrogance clearly clouds the notion.
After all it was Pakistan who supported Afghans during the Soviets war when millions poured in to seek refuge and again in 2001 contrary to what our US friend here claims in his latest post.

 

[Ahmad]

Blabbering is what these [US] fascists can do, on the ground nothing substantial has been achieved to date. Refer to my earlier posts in this thread.
Purpose of invading Afghanistan was not to free the oppressed but to serve their ulterior motives. World acknowledges this fact but US arrogance clearly clouds the notion.
After all it was Pakistan who supported Afghans during the Soviets war when millions poured in to seek refuge and again in 2001 contrary to what our friend here claim in his latest post.

my friend, you have your opinion and people of afghanistan have a completely different idea based on their experience for the last 30 years. dont forget that pakistan had huge gains from letting people of afghanistna into pakistan. large amount of aid from west came to pakistan and not much of them were given to the refugees, the weapons given to the mujahideen were seized by pakistan and instead the mujahideen were issued with old weapons from pakistani arms deopts, in other words pakistan upgrated its arms. and i am surprised that you dont acknowledge that the taliban are heavily under the influence of isi. let me say my last word here, we people of afghanistan are deeply grateful to the kind and great people of pakistan( public )for giving us their help and support, but pakistani gov and their policies towards us is somethng compltely differetn.

 

[gambit]

Sir, I am never expecting anything from anybody to do anything for us. all we want is to be left alone. nobody is our friend, not the americans, not pakistan, not russia and no one. america is there not because they care about us. america, just like pakistan and others are badly exploiting/have exploited our situation and took advantage of a country that absolute majority of its population is illitrate. we were used against the russians, they(those countries) bombarded us with puppets after puppets, the killers etc. i do really really wish we didnt make the mistake of fighting the russians. what is the difference between being under the control of russia, pakistan or america? i dont see any difference, they are all the same and foreigners to us, the mujahideen leaders were under control of ISI, the communists were under the control of the soviets, taliban were/are such a valuable assets of pakistan and now americans are there. if we didnt fight the russians, we might have been under their influece and their satelite, but at least our country wouldnt be completely destroyed, not millions and millions of people would be killed and wounded, our society and system not be completely blown up. now if the taliban succed to force the americans leave afghanistan which i really doubt if they be able to do this, what will be next? we will be free from one occupier and be under the control of another one, in this case pakistan? does it really make any difference for us?

What do you think life under the Soviets would be like? The geopolitical reality that you have no choice but to accept is that when a country does not have an effective government that can enforce its borders, that country will be preyed upon and that is what the Soviets did. Before that it was the British and others. You want to be left alone? Saying so is not going to make it so. You have to fight for your independence and do you think the Soviets were going to give it to you?

When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, Pakistan had every right to worry. At that time, Pakistan was hostile to India, who was an ally of the Soviets so a Soviet controlled Afghanistan would have Pakistan surrounded with only the seas as a possible escape avenue. That would be an unacceptable situation for any country so Pakistan really had no choice but to get involved in your country. Contrary to what many people here would like you to believe, the US is not omnipotent and the CIA does not have agents skulking everywhere. The muslims of the ME gathered to fight the Soviet infidels. Their governments provided the funds for weapons. Pakistan provided the corporate training and the US provided some, not all, of the weapons.

After the Soviets left, so did the US but many of the foreigners who were also muslims remained and they became the Taliban, loosely speaking. So why do you think we came back? What for? Oil? Territory? Women? Opium? You have every right to be suspicious of foreigners' motives and you should be so suspicious. But I suggest that if you want to make a 'difference' then before you start condemning all foreigners you should try to examine their reasons for being there in the first place. Understanding those reasons enable you to tailor your responses to make that difference.

 

[TaimiKhan]

my friend, you have your opinion and people of afghanistan have a completely different idea based on their experience for the last 30 years. dont forget that pakistan had huge gains from letting people of afghanistna into pakistan. large amount of aid from west came to pakistan and not much of them were given to the refugees, the weapons given to the mujahideen were seized by pakistan and instead the mujahideen were issued with old weapons from pakistani arms deopts, in other words pakistan upgrated its arms. and i am surprised that you dont acknowledge that the taliban are heavily under the influence of isi. let me say my last word here, we people of afghanistan are deeply grateful to the kind and great people of pakistan( public )for giving us their help and support, but pakistani gov and their policies towards us is somethng compltely differetn.

Well i did not wished to be getting into this talk as it is about the Death of the 5 British Soldiers, but as it has been made into something else and your above comment compelled me to just give a small ans to your above statement.

I believe the Afghans had old rusty 303s and decades old guns which were upgraded to AK-47s, RRs, mortars, rocket launchers, Milan anti-tank missiles, RPG-7s, PPKs, Blow Pipe MANPADS and the never forgetting Stingers too. So i don't understand how can you come with such a wrongly given statement that we did not gave Afghans the latest weapons, but kept them for ourselves. What we got was for us, what came for you guys went to you.

And it was the channeling of aid to Afghan refugees due to which the millions were accommodated, otherwise would not have been possible. But agreed that problems would have occurred in the aid issue, but Afghans did get a lot of it too.

And as for policy, Afghanistan was the only Muslim country to have voted against Pakistan to UN entry. And was Pakistan involved in Afghan affairs till 1980 or so ?? Did we had anything to do till the time Russia invaded Afghanistan, even though Afghanistan had been creating trouble for Pakistan before the Russian invasion.

Unfortunately we have no unity, we call ourselves Muslims later, but Afghans, Arabs, Pakistani, Irani, Turkish, Egyptian etc etc first. If we had thought as one Muslims, we wouldn't have been seeing the days which we are. Every country thinks for itself & its own survival and security. Till the time Afghanistan and its people don't think and stand for themselves, all others will keep interfering in its affairs and Afghans will unfortunately suffer, no one else can bring back Afghanistan besides its own people.

Pakistan plays and played the games for its own survival, which is very unfortunate, had Afghan govts policy not been anti-pakistani and pro-indian, things may have been totally different. Afghans are Muslims and our brothers, we feel sorry for Afghan people as much as we do for our own when we see ours getting killed and injured, hope one day Afghanistan stands on its feet and leaders emerge who are not anti-pakistani but pro-pakistani and give more importance to being Muslims and trust Pakistan and Pakistan in return trusts Afghanistan too, then the meddling in each other affairs will stop, otherwise we will keep going into more chaos.

 

[Ahmad]

What do you think life under the Soviets would be like? The geopolitical reality that you have no choice but to accept is that when a country does not have an effective government that can enforce its borders, that country will be preyed upon and that is what the Soviets did. Before that it was the British and others. You want to be left alone? Saying so is not going to make it so. You have to fight for your independence and do you think the Soviets were going to give it to you?

I dont know what would it be like under the Soviets!, but all i know is if we didnt fight there wouldnt have been so much death and destruction almost all of them at our cost. that was a proxy war being fought in our expense and in our soil, thats why i say it was a mistake by us,. we never had an effective gov, not before the soviets and not after that and none of them were any dependent either. perhaps we would have been another satelite state like cuba, or poland, slovakia or another country, whatever you say,it would have been much better than dying. we fought the russians, but sadly we are not free, if we were free today or yesterday, i had never called that a mistake.


When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, Pakistan had every right to worry. At that time, Pakistan was hostile to India, who was an ally of the Soviets so a Soviet controlled Afghanistan would have Pakistan surrounded with only the seas as a possible escape avenue. That would be an unacceptable situation for any country so Pakistan really had no choice but to get involved in your country. Contrary to what many people here would like you to believe, the US is not omnipotent and the CIA does not have agents skulking everywhere. The muslims of the ME gathered to fight the Soviet infidels. Their governments provided the funds for weapons. Pakistan provided the corporate training and the US provided some, not all, of the weapons.

everybody has the right to worry about their interests, during the soviets invasion(the start point) people of afghanistan had a completely different opinion from pakistan, pakistan was considered a brother country and a muslim country(i say this because religion is so important to the poeple in that region), in this situation nobody can say that afghanistan was with the indians or russians because the public were against both of them and everything was in favour of pakistan. but pakistan started a game with us, the game of destroying afghanistan, they even planned to destroy ever infrastructure of the country through their agents and the direct involvement of isi and army, they were blowing up every bridge, school, hospital, culverts, and whatever they could find, they succeded in this plan largely. we were never their enemy and never considered ourselves their enemy, they split the resistance groups into 7 and used them all against each other and to their own benefit, and then they brought the taliban. if they had something good in mind, none of these would have happended.

After the Soviets left, so did the US but many of the foreigners who were also muslims remained and they became the Taliban, loosely speaking.

and all of these guys were considered the good guys by americans when they were using them against the soviets, why suddengly a change of heart?

So why do you think we came back? What for? Oil? Territory? Women? Opium? You have every right to be suspicious of foreigners' motives and you should be so suspicious. But I suggest that if you want to make a 'difference' then before you start condemning all foreigners you should try to examine their reasons for being there in the first place. Understanding those reasons enable you to tailor your responses to make that difference.

everybody has a reason when they want to do something, but the question is whether if the reason is legitimate or not.


i am not going to argue with you in every single thing and what happened in the past, but right now i say that anybody who believe in continouation of war in afghanistan is our enemy, no matter who. all we want is to stop this bloodshed no matter what happend in the past we have to have a fresh start. if the war continues, it will only serve the interest of the enemies of our country, coming to the negoting table, joining the political process, have their say instead of shooting innocent children and suicide bombing is the only answer. if they(taliban) are true sons of the country they will stop fighting for the sake of the country and its peopole. who is/was right and who is/was wrong today/yesterday doesnt benefit us anymore. and i didnt want to start all these but some replies made me make my points.

 

[sherdil76]

This guy is not looking out for the welfare of the Afghanis. He is exploiting their miseries under the Taliban just so he can criticize the US and puff himself up as some hero for 'the oppressed'. Heck...He probably would not recognize one of 'the oppressed' if one were to beg in his face. Do not be surprise if you will find those who claim to be for 'the oppressed' are usually quite well off.

... your opening stantance is just another joke that western media use to justify illegal misadvantures of western forces around the globe... used the same tactics in Iraq... but the fact is that these invaders first destroy everything and then give contracts to their own organisations in the name of development and rehablitation.

Afghaistan and this whole region was peaceful in Taliban's era, but not anymore since 2001. Has America ever try to resolve the concerns that AlQaeda raised and later become the reasons of 9/11 attack???

west is not serious about anything but to achieve their own strategic objectives. we have seen how brutally people in Lebanon, Gaza and Palestine were killed by Zionist and no action were ever taken against crimes which whole world has seen live on tele, rather force us to believe on their fake stories like Iraq's WMD and now global threat from religious students (Talibans).

... even if they really do have, then resolves the reasons of this aggression... otherwise this will never end rather spread in larger scale... and now even your own army has same feelings and soldiers who served on war fronts have witnessed the facts... what happend in Fort Hood is just another example of it

 

[Ahmad]

Afghaistan and this whole region was peaceful in Taliban's era, but not anymore since 2001. Has America ever try to resolve the concerns that AlQaeda raised and later become the reasons of 9/11 attack???

Are you sure about this?

 

[gambit]

I dont know what would it be like under the Soviets!, but all i know is if we didnt fight there wouldnt have been so much death and destruction almost all of them at our cost. that was a proxy war being fought in our expense and in our soil, thats why i say it was a mistake by us,. we never had an effective gov, not before the soviets and not after that and none of them were any dependent either. perhaps we would have been another satelite state like cuba, or poland, slovakia or another country, whatever you say,it would have been much better than dying. we fought the russians, but sadly we are not free, if we were free today or yesterday, i had never called that a mistake.

Well...I do.

I was in East Berlin when it existed, when the Cold War was in full swing, when Raygun was face to face with several Soviet leaders who kept dying on him. The difference between East and West Berlin was like night and day, feces and food, a blow-up doll versus a menage-a-trois, etc...etc...I saw long lines for stale bread and waxy toilet paper. I bought a roll as a souvenir I kept to this day. Anyone ask I will bring it out to show the people how East German citizens wipe themselves. Compared to what I am used to, life under the Kremlin was the toilet, and that is being generous.

An effective government? Yes that is a worthwhile dream and goal. But do not confuse an effective government with a moral government and communism was a great immorality. Probably the greatest one yet mankind inflicted upon ourselves. The less autonomy an individual has because he is willing to cede certain rights and freedoms to the government in the hope that it will become an 'effective' government, the more oppressive that government will become in the interests of self preservation. Under communism, you are less than a slave, at least a master will recognize a slave's needs and interests. With communism, you are an object. Your humanity is insulted on a daily basis. Why do you think so many were willing to die in fighting against, and escaping from, communism?

But here is a provocative question for you...If you are willing to give up some rights and freedoms for stability and effective, read 'oppressive', governance, and have Afghanistan be a Soviet client state, then would you be willing to have Afghanistan be an American client state? Look at South Korea and Japan. You have access to a computer, I presume. Parts of that machine come from either or both of those countries. In order to have any form of governance, some rights and freedoms must be limited. If you are willing to TRADE some rights and freedoms for stability but along with it -- an oppressive government, how willing are you to LIMIT some rights and freedoms for stability, economic prosperity and political freedoms?

everybody has the right to worry about their interests, during the soviets invasion(the start point) people of afghanistan had a completely different opinion from pakistan, pakistan was considered a brother country and a muslim country(i say this because religion is so important to the poeple in that region), in this situation nobody can say that afghanistan was with the indians or russians because the public were against both of them and everything was in favour of pakistan. but pakistan started a game with us, the game of destroying afghanistan, they even planned to destroy ever infrastructure of the country through their agents and the direct involvement of isi and army, they were blowing up every bridge, school, hospital, culverts, and whatever they could find, they succeded in this plan largely. we were never their enemy and never considered ourselves their enemy, they split the resistance groups into 7 and used them all against each other and to their own benefit, and then they brought the taliban. if they had something good in mind, none of these would have happended.

In a way, Pakistan's response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was inevitable. Like biological organisms, political organisms are also interested in self-preservation, at the expense of the weaker organisms in the immediate vicinity if necessary.

A couple of jokes for you...If being chased by an angry bear, you do not have run faster than the bear. You just have to run faster than your companion. Or -- If you are scuba diving and meet a hungry shark, stab your dive partner and fin like hell...!!!

The jokes are very appropriate in the political realm. When political organisms are faced with existential threats from a larger and more aggressive political organism, they will seek out the weakest among them and sacrifice it for temporary respite until the beast is hungry again. The ME was facing a great threat -- The Soviet Bear -- and it just happened to trespass into Afghan territory. Ergo...Afghan soil will be the battleground. But if none is weaker than the other, like how NATO countries are, then you will have an alliance where everyone is morally responsible for the group's safety and survival. That is why alliances like NATO conditioned its members that an attack on one constitutes an attack on all. Was there such an understanding between Afghanistan and the rest of the ME?

and all of these guys were considered the good guys by americans when they were using them against the soviets, why suddengly a change of heart?

There is no way to confirm if these are the same that we assisted during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Everyone would love to believe that these are the same ones just so they can use them as a convenient rhetorical club against US.

Truth is that by the time the world know them as 'The Taliban', no one really know if these are the original mujahedeens during the Soviet occupation. Of course some were the original, but Afghanistan's borders really do not exists, except on papers. Some returned to their home countries after the Soviet withdrawal. They believed their call to help fellow muslims have been satisfied. Some remained and became 'The Taliban' and the rulers of Afghanistan. So when 'The Taliban' allowed al-Qaeda to operate in Afghanistan and the result is the attack on US on Sept. 11, 2001. The Taliban naturally became our enemy.

everybody has a reason when they want to do something, but the question is whether if the reason is legitimate or not.

And that 'everybody' include US as well. I encourage you to question why are we in Afghanistan. Do not fall for the ridiculous argument that we are in Afghanistan for 'oil'. It is on public record that US oil imports are mainly from non-ME sources.

That is from 2009 and look how much we import from non-ME sources. So we can rule out the loony conspiracy theory that we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan 'for oil'.

The US conduct trade by ships and air. So we can rule out the idea that we are in Afghanistan for territorial gains for trade routes like how the British was a hundred and something years ago.

So what you do think we are in Afghanistan for?

i am not going to argue with you in every single thing and what happened in the past, but right now i say that anybody who believe in continouation of war in afghanistan is our enemy, no matter who. all we want is to stop this bloodshed no matter what happend in the past we have to have a fresh start. if the war continues, it will only serve the interest of the enemies of our country, coming to the negoting table, joining the political process, have their say instead of shooting innocent children and suicide bombing is the only answer. if they(taliban) are true sons of the country they will stop fighting for the sake of the country and its peopole. who is/was right and who is/was wrong today/yesterday doesnt benefit us anymore. and i didnt want to start all these but some replies made me make my points.

Understandably enough. The US is not interested in Afghanistan's past, only the present and the future. The Taliban allowed al-Qaeda safe sanctuary once. How do you or we know they will not repeat themselves? But right now Afghanistan is being used in a religious war against the US. We left Afghanistan alone before and we would do so again if we can be convinced that Afghanistan will not be used as the same platform like before.

 

[gambit]

Has America ever try to resolve the concerns that AlQaeda raised and later become the reasons of 9/11 attack???

Why? Does al-Qaeda speak for the muslim world? Do you have the courage to admit your allegiance to al-Qaeda if you do believe that Osama bin Laden is or should be the representative voice for muslims worldwide?

 

[ARSENAL6]

.........invaded Iraq and Afghanistan 'for oil'. Blah Blah blah Rubbish

Yep another lie another white supremacy Christain fundamentalist propaganda
Not getting it from ME ? Whos supplying you South America ? China ?
They'll bomb you back to the stone age !
Not bothered with this kind of tripe you post Gambit

Why? Does al-Qaeda speak for the muslim world? Do you have the courage to admit your allegiance to al-Qaeda if you do believe that Osama bin Laden is or should be the representative voice for muslims worldwide?

No Osama is a puppet for America to control Muslims. Its the real reason why he is not found and his family were escorted by high official police in the State instead of interrogeting them - THINK ABOUT IT 9/11 OSAMA !!!!!!.

http://russiatoday.com/Top_News/2009-09-12/911-reasons-conspiracy.html

What do you think life under the Soviets would be like?

Its not nearly as good with occupation of US forces there Either.
The Soviets killed them because they belived in God, America and the UK kills them because they are not white and belive in Allah. To many Afgan its the same thing, same ol destruction, same ol rape and killings . Expcept that Soviets werent looking for one man to carpet bomb a country THe US manage to do this and killed millions !

.

After the Soviets left, so did the US but many of the foreigners who were also muslims remained and they became the Taliban, loosely speaking. So why do you think we came back? What for? Oil? Territory? Women? Opium? You have every right to be suspicious of foreigners' motives and you should be so suspicious. But I suggest that if you want to make a 'difference' then before you start condemning all foreigners you should try to examine their reasons for being there in the first place. Understanding those reasons enable you to tailor your responses to make that difference.

Why do Muslim are up in arms and in rage against the West ?Because they are mad? Because they are jealous of your gready, unhealthy life style ? really ? Ask yourself ! and if you can't see the problem then you really need to look upon yourself if you have any concious left. The amount of collatual damge caused and are dismissed by poeple like you and S-2. Imagine if Muslims said the same thing about 9/11 we be tortured like a terrorist in western countries. Yet here you say things like "it was nessarly to kill civillans" freely and insult their dead continously on our faces laughing behind your screens.

Call it what you may but there is no fabrication, lie or even conspiracy theories on the idea that the US is there for 1) eliminate Muslim progress to better themselves 2) for Oil
Your post suggest, indirectly implying that any one belives otherwise is insane.

.

After the Soviets left, so did the US but many of the foreigners who were also muslims remained and they became the Taliban,.

Muslim that were left behind were not the Talis
What caused them to go up against the US were Christain Fundamentalist and western right wing.

Please don't tell lies about Islam or about Muslim or spreading racist views that Muslim are the causes of the fall of Afganistan when its the you , the Opium and the Chirstan fundametalist crusade causing all the problem .Please don't tell stories how great the US army is when you have the latest tech in the world and you couldn't even find one man and beaten by an army that doesn't have tanks !

 

[gambit]

No Osama is a puppet for America to control Muslims. Its the real reason why he is not found and his family were escorted by high official police in the State instead of interrogeting them - THINK ABOUT IT 9/11 OSAMA !!!!!!.

911 reasons why 9/11 was (probably) an inside job. Part 3: Osama bin Laden - RT Top Stories

As soon as I see this...Pretty much nonsense for the rest. Ignored.

 

[ARSENAL6]

As soon as I see this...Pretty much nonsense for the rest. Ignored.

THe feeling is mutual on all your posts. Just saving you the trouble not to post lies, propaganda and crap here next time for the future.

 

[gambit]

THe feeling is mutual on all your posts. Just saving you the trouble not to post lies, propaganda and crap here next time for the future.

Take a look at this question...

Has America ever try to resolve the concerns that AlQaeda raised and later become the reasons of 9/11 attack???

Before you start off on an American with these loony 9/11 conspiracy theories, you should start off with your fellow muslims who does not believe as you do. They have access to the Internet. They saw the same rehashed crap and may be the reason why they continued to believe that Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda has nothing to do with US is because they see YOUR crap as -- crap.

 

[ARSENAL6]

Take a look at this question...
Before you start off on an American with these loony 9/11 conspiracy theories, you should start off with your fellow muslims who does not believe as you do. They have access to the Internet. They saw the same rehashed crap and may be the reason why they continued to believe that Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda has nothing to do with US is because they see YOUR crap as -- crap.

and avoiding the issue because the US are guilty of 9/11 nice.

Gambit let me say this, these Muslim you mention keep postiing Hard facts about your genocide in Afganistan and Iraq. Facts that come from your very own country the Untited State.
You haven't even prove one shred of reliable evidence that Muslim extremist are the threat of the world and the US is not there for the oil. 9/11 doesn't come into it because of the genocide you have commited thorough out the world.
Furthermore the real reason is why you would, couldn't answer properly and gassing around with insane facts that Amerca can't do no wrong , Muslim are the cause of it
because it is insane , stupid, doltish and there is no proper fact to support your aguements. They just feeble excuse and whitetrash mentalaty to blame things that are not white and not American. Gambit you prove my point everytime with your post as you make personal attacks.