Af-Pak - Destined For Conflict

[DESERT FIGHTER]

IS Pakistan ready to give up one fourth of its land to form this new country called Pashtunistan ?

Because Pashtunistan if ever comes from fruition will ecompass both Afghanistans Pashtun majority region as well as Pakistan's .

Lol... Sure but the pashtunistan would be a province of Pak...

As the OP said .. There are more Pashtuns in Karachi than Peshawar or Kabul ... There are more Pashtuns in Pakistan .. Than anywhere (including Afghanistan) combined ....

Even nationalist parties like ANP don't demand any sort of succession let alone Pashtunistan.. But yes we are open to the idea of a Pashtuistan province ... Which includes Pashtun areas of Afghanistan...

 

[Kambojaric]

1947 india independence act, article 7/1 c clearly reads (regarding tribal areas)
"There lapse also any treaties or agreements in force at the date of the passing of this Act between His Majesty and any persons having authority in the tribal areas, any obligations of His Majesty existing at that date to any such persons or with respect to the tribal areas, and all powers, rights, authority or jurisdiction exercisable at that date by His Majesty in or in relation to the tribal areas by treaty, grant, usage, sufferance or otherwise"
which shown FATA people gained independence after 1947, but since due to lack of central authority which pakistan took advantage of and made their own constitutional arrangements unilaterally regarding tribals which highly remains an ambiguous and disputed subject between the tribes themselves and Pakistan and between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
to sum it up neither durand line is off the table and neither FATA legally belong to pakistan. their is going to be tough questions and toughs days are ahesd once Afghan take their destiny in their own hands. bhittani baacha your lame article is not going to help anyone.
sada haq itte raq

There is a reason why the Pakistan-Afghanistan border is non issue for 99% of the world. It is this legal concept (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/uti_possidetis_juris), a norm in international law so to speak. You can keep telling yourselves that this and that is not off the table. To be frank the rest of the world does not give a shi*.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Having no guarantors doesnt mean one can pull out whenever mood strikes. Plus Pakistan doesn't care what Afghanistan thinks or believes.

Afghanistan broke the UN law when it crossed UN recognized border in 1960 & 61.

Fact is the border was demarcated from 1893 to 1896
The four commissions demarcated Seven different sections of the Durand Line from 1894 to 1896 as under:-

• Sir Richard Udny (British Side) and Sardar Ghulam Haider Khan (Afghan side) demarcated the border from Charkhao Pass (Chitral) upto Nawa Pass (Bajaur) via an agreement dated 9 April 1895. (Note: The region from Nawa Pass via Mohmand upto Sikaram peak remained disputed and was settled by the Rawalpindi Anglo-Afghan Agreement of 1919).
• J. Donald and Sardar Shireen Dil Khan demarcated the boundary from Sikaram peak to Laram peak (Tochi) via an agreement dated 21 November 1894.
• H.A Anderson with local Afghan Chiefs nominated by the Ameer demarcated two sections of the boundary; from Laram peak to Charkhil and onwards to Khwaja Khidr (Birmal) via two separate agreements both dated 15 April 1895.
• L. W. King with local Afghan Chiefs nominated by the Ameer demarcated the boundary from Khwaja Khidr to Domandi (Gomal) via an agreement dated 8 March 1895.
• A. H. McMahon with Sardar Gul Muhammad Khan demarcated the boundary from Domandi to New Chaman via an agreement dated 26 February 1895.
• A. H. McMahon with Sardar Muhammad Umar Khan demarcated the boundary from New Chaman to Koh-i-Malik Siah at the tri-junction with Iran via an agreemnt dated 13 May 1896.

And About FATA, you may want to read up on results of NWFP referendum & decisions of the Jirgas of FATA. But Then Again, i dont expect some one who starts the conversation with Bacha to understand.

Wrora are you from Balochistan or Waziristan ? I believe south Waziristan and Zhob division has a large population of Bhittanis?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

look at your assumptions and points calling it afghan government arguments
durnad line was a treaty between two states, and their was no guaranters, in past many treatise regarding both state sphere of influence was made, ratified and declared null. pakistan inherited the treaty under Vienna conventions, but there is no stopping if one signatory wish to exit unilateraly as geo political scenario changes. Afghanistan is not breaking any single UN law by exiting the treaty.
Fact is neither there was any border between Afghanistan and British and neither pakistan has any border with Afghanistan, only sphere of influence if the original treaty is kept in tact.
under 1947 independence act pakistan inherited NWFP from British on it's west side not even FATA as it is clearly written under section 7 c of independence act in which British declared all the treatise null and void with FATA people, and left them on their own.

These type of issues are decided in two ways :-

(i) The law and international order. With regards to the Durand Line the position is as under:-


His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom has seen with regret the disagreements between the Governments of Pakistan and Afghanistan about the status of the territories on the North West Frontier. It is His Majesty's Government's view that Pakistan is in international law the inheritor of the rights and duties of the old Government of India and of his Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom in these territories and that the Durand Line is the international frontier.[32]

— Philip Noel-Baker, June 30, 1950

At the 1956 SEATO (Southeast Asia Treaty Organization) Ministerial Council Meeting held at Karachi, capital of Pakistan at the time, it was stated:

The members of the Council declared that their governments recognised that the sovereignty of Pakistan extends up to the Durand Line, the international boundary between Pakistan and Afghanistan, and it was consequently affirmed that the Treaty area referred to in Articles IV and VIII of the Treaty includes the area up to that Line.[33]

— SEATO, March 8, 1956

(ii) Or use force to change the facts on the ground.

*SEATO members

United States,Pakistan Australia, France, New Zealand, Philippines, Thailand, and the United Kingdom

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

Wrora are you from Balochistan or Waziristan ? I believe south Waziristan and Zhob division has a large population of Bhittanis?

I Am From Tank-Dikhan In KPK. Most Bhittanis Lie between Waziristan & D-i-khan at Jandola.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I Am From Tank-Dikhan In KPK. Most Bhittanis Lie between Waziristan & D-i-khan at Jandola.

Is the Zhob-Tank-DIK road operational ? I used to travel a lot from Quetta Panjab through the Zhob-DIK route ..

 

[Osiris]

Lol... Sure but the pashtunistan would be a province of Pak...

As the OP said .. There are more Pashtuns in Karachi than Peshawar or Kabul ... There are more Pashtuns in Pakistan .. Than anywhere (including Afghanistan) combined ....

Even nationalist parties like ANP don't demand any sort of succession let alone Pashtunistan.. But yes we are open to the idea of a Pashtuistan province ... Which includes Pashtun areas of Afghanistan...

There is already a decades old movement for Pashtunistan in Pakistan.

Why would the world let you carve out a portion of Afghanistan to include in Pakistan ?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

There is already a decades old movement for Pashtunistan in Pakistan.

lol where is it? bharti kunni even TTP doesn't talk of pashtunistan .. Even Gen Wahid Gul was a Pashtun ... The man hated by afghans and Indians alike... Or how about Sartaj Aziz who is from Mardan.... I can even count a dozen Pashtun ISI,Army,navy and airforce Chiefs ...

Why would the world let you carve out a portion of Afghanistan to include in Pakistan ?

Why wouldn't the world let us do that? Pashtunistan anyone ?

There is already a decades old movement for Pashtunistan in Pakistan.

Why would the world let you carve out a portion of Afghanistan to include in Pakistan ?

Pashtuns are now essentially the heart of Pak.. From military to govt they make a big chunk....

Pashtunistan is a dead horse not even afghans flog anymore ..

And we have some Indian twat here with zero knowledge about such issues moaning ...

This forum itself has dozens of Pashtun members .. This threads OP himself is one... Multiple other members posting here are... And even half of my family is Pashtun ... I'm Baluch by the way..

 

[spinghar renacido]

So what is afghan govts stance ? Do you consider Durand line a permanent border or not?

Not that it matters ...




How are his facts FB material ? Did Afghanistan not invade Pak territory multiple times ? Did Afghanistan not create pashtunistan drama (which failed)... Was KHAAD not involved in terrorism in Pak? Didn't Afghanistan not recognise Pakistan in 47? Did afghan govt not launch scud missiles at Pak in the past?

Federally administered tribal areas are an autonomous part of Pakistan... Governed directly by the federal govt... Had they not been a part of Pak .. Pak flags wouldn't be flying in FATA .. Neither had PAF bombed afghan Askaris during the invasion of Bajaur.

there is no question of permanent border, under no law the original line treaty can become permanent border just because pakistan wishes. pakistan inherited the treaty not borders. my friend considering it a border and treating it as a border just like pakistan is doing now unilaterally is in itself a violation of the original durand line agreement.
i am not calling these a facebook material rather the one like Afghanistan official stance is that it is valid for 100 years, and other moral arguments about the line dividing pashtuns. these points don't hold any water, neither as such Afghanistan legal stance.
your arguments that FATA is part of pakistan because paksitan flags flying there is such a goat shit,make a habit of sayings things from a legal perspective. and we should not talk about PAF bombing FATA. right?

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

Is the Zhob-Tank-DIK road operational ? I used to travel a lot from Quetta Panjab through the Zhob-DIK route ..

i Dont travel south of Dikhan much, but they were working on Dikhan chasma road last time i visited( 5-6 months back). Btw if it is under construction, it will be still open to traffic. Its Pakistan :p

 

[Osiris]

lol where is it? bharti kunni even TTP doesn't talk of pashtunistan .. Even Gen Wahid Gul was a Pashtun ... The man hated by afghans and Indians alike... Or how about Sartaj Aziz who is from Mardan.



Why wouldn't the world let us do that? Pashtunistan anyone ?

Because the world does not support bullies, especially if a stronger nation tries to engulf lands from weaker nation?
Iraq and Kuwait, would be apt example.

India for one , will make sure, Pakistan does not get any part of Afghanistan, if required will open the second front on your Eastern borders and engulf Pakistan on two fronts.

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

your arguments that FATA is part of pakistan because paksitan flags flying there is such a goat shit,make a habit of sayings things from a legal perspective. and we should not talk about PAF bombing FATA. right?

False.

""Sir George Cunningham signed agreement with them (tibals and reported: “I interviewed the jirgas of all the tribes from end to end of the frontier, and without exception”, he said, “they (tribes) stated and confirmed in written statements that they were part of Pakistan and wished to preserve the same relations with Pakistan as they had with the British”.

In January 1948, Jinnah signed the famous ‘Instrument of Accession’, at the Bannu Tribal Jirga and on April 17, 1948 when he visited the Frontier Province as the first Governor General of Pakistan, a historic jirga of all the tribes of the NWFP met with him at the Government House of Peshawar and the tribesmen, including those of the Khyber Agency, pledged their loyalty to Pakistan. They also expressed their desire that they should be placed ‘directly under the control of the Central Government"
By The Way No should talk about ANSF bombing everything Between Wakhan to Helmand, as we know he is clutching at the straws & trying to derail the thread.

 

[.]

Pakistan should summarize its economic loses due to the afghan immigrants and demand mining rights in Afghanistan.
Or they should annex the much needed wakhan corridor.

When my Great-grandparents ruled the princely state of chitral the wakhan corridor used to a part of its empire but now we might desperately need it back for future prospects of Natural Gas resource into our Northern area's and districts ,Because Pakistani terrain is increasingly above sea level and obstructs mass lines into those area's hence is the reason these places don't have Gas lines.
Our trade with Tajikistan will also Increase,There were Thousands of families who had Interests in Tajikistan due to trade but now many of those families are struggling due to revised trade agreements.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

look

There is another aspect that you ignore. Where there is Durand Line there is also another line - we might call it 'Lumsden Line' or 'Ridgeway Line' as they were the British officials so charged to demarcate the border. This is the boundary established by a commission made up of British and Russian officials as the border between Russian Empire and Afghanistan.

There is little differance between Durand Line or Lumsden/Ridgeway Line. The former set the boundary between Afghanistan and the British Empire the latter between Afghanistan and Russian Empire.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/boundaries-iii

Russia agreed to an Anglo-Afghan proposal that the boundary be fixed on the Amu Darya below Ḵamīāb in exchange for equivalent territory in Bādḡīs (2,136 km2, uninhabited but containing a well). Between November, 1887, and January, 1888, a limited joint commission proceeded to the corresponding rectifications of the boundary between the Koškrūd and the Morḡāb, as well as to the demarcation of its eastern section up to the Amu Darya. On 26 January 1888 a final protocol, signed at Ḵamīāb, brought the entire operation to an end. A total of 79 boundary posts had been set up along the 630 km of this most sensitive frontier, which an Afghan historian has proposed to call the “Ridgeway line” (M. Ali, Afghanistan. The Mohammedzai Period, Kabul, 1959, p. 136).


Further it is interesting to note:-

According to the British members of the commission, the boundary was “only an arbitrary line based on the circumstances of the moment rather than on any permanent and natural basis” and thus could not “be expected to be permanent” (Yate, 1888, pp. 178f.). It is all the more remarkable then that in the century since it was drawn it has given rise to only minor problems, all easily settled.

Therefore the principles and history that applies to the northern Afghan border also applies to the southern Afghan border. The nother border cuts across ethnic groups like southern border. For example Uzbeks, Tajiks and Turken are divided by the northern Afghan border. If Afghanistan can tear down the northern border and integrate Takijs of Tajikistan and Uzbeks of Uzbekistan then it might have stronger case with Pakistan as those states are far weaker then Pakistan.

It might be also be noted that Afghanistan lost territory to Russia on the northern border. Leaving asides anything else we have the Panjdeh Incident where Russian captured Afghan territory by force.

The 1921 Afghan-Soviet Treaty of Friendship was the first international agreement made by the Soviets. Under its terms, "the Soviets agreed to return to Afghanistan, subject to plebiscites, territories in the Panjdeh area ceded under duress by Afghanistan to Russia or Bukhara in the nineteenth century...".[4] This was not done.

That area became part of Soviet Union and in after the dissolution of USSR it became part of Turkmenistan. Therefore what I would like to ask @spinghar renacido is when do they propose to ask for return of Panjdeh from Turkmenistan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjdeh_incident


"We want Panjdeh Back" !

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

Pakistan should summarize its economic loses due to the afghan immigrants and demand mining rights in Afghanistan.
Or they should annex the much needed wakhan corridor.

When my Great-grandparents ruled the princely state of chitral the wakhan corridor used to a part of its empire but now we might desperately need it back for future prospects of Natural Gas resource into our Northern area's and districts ,Because Pakistani terrain is increasingly above sea level and obstructs mass lines into those area's hence is the reason these places don't have Gas lines.
Our trade with Tajikistan will also Increase,There were Thousands of families who had Interests in Tajikistan due to trade but now many of those families are struggling due to revised trade agreements.

Wrote "Wakhan Corridor...An opportunity!" in 2015 from my first account (lost password to PDF ID + that email). Give it a read if you are interested