Aerial Targets for Air Defense Training

[XYON]

What kind of aerial targets does the Pakistan Armed Forces use to train operatives of Air Defense battalions?

I have heard that a mix of locally made and Chinese aerial targets are used.

Any information or confirmation from other members?

 

[In arduis fidelis]

Short Range - Tunder SR
TUNDER is a high speed target drone for use with MANPAD missiles and AAA. It is already in use with international and domestic customers. TUNDER's delta wing design is ideal for aerial targets, with its speed and size it accurately simulates real life aerial threats, providing air defense units with a realistic target to shoot at.

Long Range - Tunder LR
It is same as above with increased range.

Training System - Assualt
Assault is an advanced trainer for Tunder high speed target drones. It is a half scale trainer and matches the actual characteristics and looks of the full-scale aircraft. Assault has been designed for wheeled take-off as well as from a launcher.

High Speed Drone - Shooting Star
High Speed Target Drone with 2x 45 lb-f Turbo Jet and Cruise Velocity of 550 kph (0.55 Mach).

These are to name a few.

 

[Sulman Badshah]

TORNADO
The TORNADO is a lightweight, high-speed, mini-turbojet decoy system with autonomous navigation, pre-strike decoy and fire & forget capabilities.

A TORNADO system consists of 4 decoy aircraft, a pneumatic catapult launcher system and a portable ground station for pre-programming mission profiles. The TORNADO is designed for decoy missions where simulation of actual fighter aircraft is required and the ground control stations provides simultaneous multiple-vehicle flight capability with a range in excess of 200 km.

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Tornado - Image Gallery

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[Sulman Badshah]

NISHAN MK II
The NISHAN MK-II is part of the INTEGRATED DYNAMICS HS-UAV series of high - speed aerial targets/decoys representing the next generation of air defense training and simulation systems.

The NISHAN MK-II is piston-engine powered with a 25 bhp powerplant. Proven over many hours of field use, the airframes demonstrate a high degree of modularity, and common features that allow interchangeability of parts and easy interface of payloads and operational electronics. Electronic payloads and subsystems include video, GPS navigation, MDI systems, height lock, and sea-skimming modules.

A complete system consists of 10 UAV's; a portable GCS-1200 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-1200 Ground Support Equipment subsystem.


Nishan MK - II - Image Gallery

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[Sulman Badshah]

NISHAN TJ 1000
The NISHAN TJ-1000 is part of the INTEGRATED DYNAMICS HS-UAV series of high - speed aerial targets/decoys representing the next generation of air defense training and simulation systems.

The TJ1000 has a mini-turbojet engine and its thrust-to-weight ratio and performance make it a unique system. The airframes are modular and common features allow interchangeability of parts and easy interface of payloads and operational electronics. Electronic payloads and subsystems include video, GPS navigation, MDI systems, height lock, and sea-skimming modules.

A complete system consists of 6 UAV's; a portable GCS-1200 Ground Control Station; the ATPS-1200 Antenna Tracking & Positioning System; programming and moving map mission display software; Spares and the GSE-1200 Ground Support Equipment subsystem.



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[XYON]

Thank you gentlemen for the information above. But my information is that the speed of the locally made target drones is very less to provide realistic training to the AD personnel of the Army. Similarly the Navy is not using any of the locally made drones as well.

Army is also using some Chinese made target drone called S200W. Does anyone has any information on this drone type?

 

[princefaisal]

High speed drone with speed of Mach 2.5 should be procured for testing of latest FM-90 and other missile systems.

 

[XYON]

There is no training drone in the world with a speed of Mach 2.5! Even if their is one to be made it will be too expensive for Pakistan Army to operate and maintain!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Thank you gentlemen for the information above. But my information is that the speed of the locally made target drones is very less to provide realistic training to the AD personnel of the Army. Similarly the Navy is not using any of the locally made drones as well.

Army is also using some Chinese made target drone called S200W. Does anyone has any information on this drone type?

tube or banner flown behind a long towline attached to a jet to help with such exercises

sory if you cant see youtube but this is one example where a dummy or a tube attached to a high speed jet is used as target

your speed issue resolved



U.S. Navy pilots flying F/A-18C Hornet aircraft perform Banner Tow missions from the runways here in order to improve their gunnery skills. These missions involve a lead aircraft towing a large orange and white banner into the skies as target practice for other Hornet pilots.

"The banner is cabled 1,500 feet from the tow aircraft," said Aviation Ordnance 1st Class Mark Walk, from the U.S. Navy's VFA-195 squadron based out of Naval Aviation Facility Atsugi in Japan. "It's a lot like the banners you might see flying advertisements over the beach, except this one's advertising 'Open Season' for pilots to practice their skills with the F-18's guns."


this is how it will look together with plane.. old picture but for your benefit to understand

 

[XYON]

@Irfan Baloch the target types you have listed are for air-air firing practice and not for ground-to-air air defense purpose. And generally these targets are not towed at 2.5 Mach but at much lower speeds by the aircraft. High speed tow will shred the targets to pieces before they can even be touched by friendly fire!

My query is specifically related to autonomous drones used for Air Defense training live fire exercises.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Irfan Baloch the target types you have listed are for air-air firing practice and not for ground-to-air air defense purpose. And generally these targets are not towed at 2.5 Mach but at much lower speeds by the aircraft. High speed tow will shred the targets to pieces before they can even be touched by friendly fire!

My query is specifically related to autonomous drones used for Air Defense training live fire exercises.

mera chand I gave you an example


we use our AAK AAK to shoot those banners. and the RBS-70 we have in air defence is a ground based man pad and it blew up a tube tied to an aircraft.. i was hoping people will understand better by giving the example .what the target looks like.. the shooter can be naval , areal or ground based .. there is no compulsion. the US navy also uses same target typee

 

[XYON]

mera chand I gave you an example


we use our AAK AAK to shoot those banners. and the RBS-70 we have in air defence is a ground based man pad and it blew up a tube tied to an aircraft.. i was hoping people will understand better by giving the example .what the target looks like.. the shooter can be naval , areal or ground based .. there is no compulsion. the US navy also uses same target typee

Pappu Jee ... both examples you have given may be stop gap first level training measures though in my experience I have never seen ground based AAA or MANPADS firing at towed targets. They always fire at independent drones with either propeller based or jet based engines. Towed targets do not provide realistic training, target drones do!

 

[Arsalan]

Pappu Jee ... both examples you have given may be stop gap first level training measures though in my experience I have never seen ground based AAA or MANPADS firing at towed targets. They always fire at independent drones with either propeller based or jet based engines. Towed targets do not provide realistic training, target drones do!

You have not seen it so will it means it never happened? I like your confidence!

Any way, the towed banner IS USED for ground based anti aircraft gun training, towed tubes are also used for SAM shooting exercises.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Pappu Jee ... both examples you have given may be stop gap first level training measures though in my experience I have never seen ground based AAA or MANPADS firing at towed targets. They always fire at independent drones with either propeller based or jet based engines. Towed targets do not provide realistic training, target drones do!

send a directive to get it changed. I gave references to what I have seen and experienced. nothing can be more realistic than the real war situation until then we improvise and make do with what we got and it worked in Kargil war.

You have not seen it so will it means it never happened? I like your confidence!

Any way, the towed banner IS USED for ground based anti aircraft gun training, towed tubes are also used for SAM shooting exercises.

I explained what I have seen. also rocket launched drones and banners attached to PAF jets. had to use incendiary rounds to make the impact visible and effective.
seems like its not good enough for our friend here so lets pray for him that he finds the realistic product with right funding and approval for the sake of realistic target shooting.

 

[XYON]

You have not seen it so will it means it never happened? I like your confidence!

Any way, the towed banner IS USED for ground based anti aircraft gun training, towed tubes are also used for SAM shooting exercises.

Did not say it never happens. Read the comment again for proper assimilation of what I said!

Same goes for you too @Irfan Baloch .....