‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[SQ8]

Precisely..With the vague and sometimes contradictory laws, what we have is an immense scope for (mis)using the same to settle scores based on personal vendettas/bias. So if we have a better law which gives a more fool proof method to solve the same crime is not better to move towards that rather than persisting with the old one which might not be suitable for modern day ?

But my point was not that, the previous part of the post was slightly on tangent - my main point was to those who are ridiculing Zarvan that secularism is completely compatible with Islam. No it is not. Islam tells people how to run a govt. If you dont follow that then that is un-Islamic. If you follow it, then it is not secular.

That is agreed. But many of those principles that supposedly make these secular "society" a hallmark for equal justice already exist in Islam. What secularism allows in the name of personal liberty even if it is damaging to others in society Islam has made that void.

 

[somebozo]

Janab Quran has complete laws how to spend life ... Whatever you want ..

This is exactly what the fundamentals thing and the result is for all to see.

Quran is every thing.. guidance, law, science, knowledge....

Yes this is why kids who have not been to any school but their parents choose to send them for pure religious teaching have done wonders to the world.

And the Quran was revealed to Khosrau

Praying five times a day defeminately was.

Over time, Zoroastrians developed the concept of worshipping in temples, sometimes called fire temples. The temples contain an inner sanctum (pavi) or platform where a fire is maintained or placed. This is because Zoroastrians face a source of light when they pray. In temples the source of light is a flame maintained in a fire urn. In certain temples, this fire is kept burning continuously, representing an eternal flame.

The orthodox will pray during each of the five divisions of the day (see our page on the Zoroastrian calendar) or gahs (see our page on the Avesta, scriptures) including reciting a special set of prayers before and after bathing.

Zoroastrians hold that the effectiveness of a person's beliefs is demonstrated in that person's deeds. While praying helps to reaffirm beliefs, a life based on good deeds is prayer in action. Our lives are the temples of our souls. This is a natural progression of the ethical creed of good thoughts, words and deeds, where good deeds are held to be most meritorious.

[Note: The word namaz or namaaz is used in modern Persian to mean prayer. It is derived from namazh, in turn derived from the Middle Persian namaach, a word with roots in the Avestan nemangh. Interestingly, in Avestan nemase-te means 'reverence to you'. Compare with Hindi namaste from Vedic Sanskrit namas-te meaning 'honouring-you'. The word namaz is now also used by Persian and Indo-Pakistani Muslims to mean prayer. Muslims have also taken the concept of praying five times a day and using a prayer cap or head-covering while praying from Zoroastrianism.]

 

[Dubious]

Binary logic fails when there are multiple interpretations of scripture. For example, it's well known that Muhammed was a merchant, yet the fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran that dominated Islam centuries later was driven by the viewpoint of landlords and monarchs. So how can you possibly be confident that you've got it right rather than being a kufr yourself?

Good point, 1 of the key thing holding us is we still have a living language and scriptures dating from Muhammad S.A.W's time...Quran was compiled during his time itself not after his death!

Next, these landlords and monarchs were half illiterate that is another plus point that ensures we did not loose the originality!

 

[somebozo]

Good point, 1 of the key thing holding us is we still have a living language and scriptures dating from Muhammad S.A.W's time...Quran was compiled during his time itself not after his death!

Next, these landlords and monarchs were half illiterate that is another plus point that ensures we did not loose the originality!

And you personally tested each and everyone of them for qualifications? Right?

 

[KS]

What secularism allows in the name of personal liberty even if it is damaging to others in society Islam has made that void.

Any examples ?

 

[Dubious]

And you personally tested each and everyone of them for qualifications? Right?

Zoroastrianism is not exactly a good example....it is still debated when that religion came, what it taught and if all the books survived!

Hence, no one can actually say they prayed that way from the beginning and did not change AFTER they saw Islam...

Since I DO NOT know much about the religion I will stop there...

 

[Arabian Legend]

Over time, Zoroastrians developed the concept of worshipping in temples, sometimes called fire temples. The temples contain an inner sanctum (pavi) or platform where a fire is maintained or placed. This is because Zoroastrians face a source of light when they pray. In temples the source of light is a flame maintained in a fire urn. In certain temples, this fire is kept burning continuously, representing an eternal flame.

The orthodox will pray during each of the five divisions of the day (see our page on the Zoroastrian calendar) or gahs (see our page on the Avesta, scriptures) including reciting a special set of prayers before and after bathing.

Zoroastrians hold that the effectiveness of a person's beliefs is demonstrated in that person's deeds. While praying helps to reaffirm beliefs, a life based on good deeds is prayer in action. Our lives are the temples of our souls. This is a natural progression of the ethical creed of good thoughts, words and deeds, where good deeds are held to be most meritorious.

[Note: The word namaz or namaaz is used in modern Persian to mean prayer. It is derived from namazh, in turn derived from the Middle Persian namaach, a word with roots in the Avestan nemangh. Interestingly, in Avestan nemase-te means 'reverence to you'. Compare with Hindi namaste from Vedic Sanskrit namas-te meaning 'honouring-you'. The word namaz is now also used by Persian and Indo-Pakistani Muslims to mean prayer. Muslims have also taken the concept of praying five times a day and using a prayer cap or head-covering while praying from Zoroastrianism.]

Just the praying or the whole Quran..was driven from their?

 

[mjnaushad]

Sir I didn't said that I said you can't be complete secular without being an atheist Sir and by the way even if it is not Athiesm or other stuff still its kufr sir because in Islam either you are with law of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW or you are with law of kufr

I am with law of kufur ..... bite me.

Atleast in law of kufur i'll have a say about my future.... and i wont be killed just because "I beg to differ".

 

[Jungibaaz]

Secularism =/= atheism.
They are completely different concepts.

Times have changed why don't we? No-one is saying abandon Islamic laws and traditions.

 

[somebozo]

Zoroastrianism is not exactly a good example....it is still debated when that religion came, what it taught and if all the books survived!

Hence, no one can actually say they prayed that way from the beginning and did not change AFTER they saw Islam...

Since I DO NOT know much about the religion I will stop there...

Zorostatian history is is quite well documented along with archeological evidence, much of it was destroyed by Islamic invasion of Persia!

Just the praying or the whole Quran..was driven from their?

Perhaps it was influenced by Jewish and Christian scripture..Quran talks a about Figs and Olives - none of them grow in Mecca..Most likely Syrian landscape!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Arabias-war-between-god-and-archaeology.html


There is no archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca is an ancient town that existed before the Christian era, or even that it existed before about the 4th century A.D.
Try a Google like - archaeology of mecca - or other related searches.
Here's a Wikipedia article on Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia. Mecca is not on the list because there is no evidence of Mecca being an ancient town.

http://www.historyofmecca.com/archaeology_mecca.htm

 

[Dubious]

Zorostatian history is is quite well documented along with archeological evidence, much of it was destroyed by Islamic invasion of Persia!



Perhaps it was influenced by Jewish and Christian scripture..Quran talks a about Figs and Olives - none of them grow in Mecca..Most likely Syrian landscape!

Well, MAYBE they are from the same source known as GOD? Ever thought that far?

 

[Jango]

Provided that they pay the Jizyah - which is practically extortion in the name of religion!

Jizya is far from extortion. It is a kind of tax or more appropriately Zakat for the Non-Muslims. It also takes into account the financial health of the non-Muslim in question.

 

[Dubious]

Jizya is far from extortion. It is a kind of tax or more appropriately Zakat for the Non-Muslims. It also takes into account the financial health of the non-Muslim in question.

People have no problem paying taxes but the minute an Arab word is used for it...ITS

 

[Azazel]

@Azazel
Neither you know Islamic ideology nor you have knowledge about secularism ... First see below definition of secularism:

Secularism is the principle of separation of government institutions, and the persons mandated to represent the State, from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be unbiased by religious influence. Some scholars are now arguing that the very idea of secularism will change.

Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In pure Islamic state no one would be greater than Quran & Sunnah ... Quran tell us all rules to spend a human life ... And Sunnah explains us in detail about these rules ..

Really,Where am I wrong about Secularism,Read through lines,You wrote the same thing I've said.What I wrote is secularism in a philosophical sense.And about the second part,where is this pure Islamic state you are talking about.No such thing could exist,In real world laws will be compiled by interpreted by normal humans.They will always interpret it the way it suits their agenda.

 

[Jango]

And hence we conclude that your understanding of Islam is being misled as your condition is that you are unable to explain any of your arguments beyond an initial tagline.

Yes, you are either with Islam or with Kufr.. but that does not mean that being a Muslim you ignore the dying or starving Kafir. It the literal translation of Bismillah-Ar-Rehman Ar-Rahim..
"Benificiant/Gracious" and "Merciful".
It is the basic lack of understanding of even this that has Muslims still wondering why on earth Allah has rewarded the west will all the progress while they still rot even when having all the bounties on earth.
The Graciousness of God has NOTHING to do with Muslims.. as it is for all Mankind.. and he rewards all those who call to him and work hard..

"O Mankind! Worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, happily ye may guard (yourselves from evil)” (Sura Baqarah, Verse 21)

It is evident that Quran is for guidance of Mankind, not for Muslims.

Ya-ayuhan-nas...not Ya-ayuhal-Muslimoon.