‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[JonAsad]

Dude - There is huge difference between Quran & book of Hadith. Quran existed in chronological order when Prophet (PBUH) left (Probably with instruction to organize it). Later Usman (R.A.) compiled it and destroyed every-other writing, so people can't associate it with Quran. And it passed from generation to generation. On other hand first Book of Hadith was written after 200 years.

Actualy i was coming to this in my 2nd last post before going out-
though i must declare before if you hv problem in believing the authenticity of hadiths i hv no problem with it- To each his own between his God-

And then there is a question-
When you say you will verify the hadiths which authentic sources comes to your mind?-

 

[Sugarcane]

Well they might all rhyme except for aytullah- i disagree here-
But according to my knowledge-
I came believe The word "Momin" is exclusive to some one not necessarily an expert in religious or socio cultural affairs but a complete follower of Sunnah and Quran- and has some sort of divine relation with Allah- that relation distinguishe him from other forms of Muslims-

Whatever - But i don't like someone deciding either i am Muslim or not, My prayers, zakat & fasts are accepted or not. And force his/her version & interpretation of religion on me. Nor - i can tolerate someone attributing lies to Muhammad SAW and his companions. If someone's back is on fire because of my stand than let it be.

Actualy i was coming to this in my 2nd last post before going out-
though i must declare before if you hv problem in believing the authenticity of hadiths i hv no problem with it- To each his own between his God-

And then there is a question-
When you say you will verify the hadiths which authentic sources comes to your mind?-

Surely i will check it with Qur^an which Prophet (PBUH) left and God assured to preserve it.

 

[KingMamba]

So, You don't want to make example of murderer? or you don't want to give a chance to thief to return stolen thing and ask for forgiveness?

BTW - I am 100% confident that Chopping of hands is misinterpretation and i can back my claim

Obviously a thief would have no problem returning something if he gets caught, for a thief he would rather return the item than have his hand chopped off. You do make an example of a murderer when you execute him in front of everyone else. If the victims forgive him though I do not see how anyone else has a right to kill the man or ask for his head. I am not sure about the bold it is not something that most people even think is up for debate.

 

[JonAsad]

Surely i will check it with Qur^an which Prophet (PBUH) left and God assured to preserve it.

The idea of yours is flawed-

Lets start by verifying the most important but basic pillars of Islam first- it should be a peace of cake for a researcher of your caliber- who thinks will verify every thing from Quran-

1. The No. Of Prayers and their method-
2. Describe method for Ablution-
3. The amount of payable Zakat-

 

[Sugarcane]

The idea of yours is flawed-

Lets start by verifying the most important but basic pillars of Islam first- it should be a peace of cake for a researcher of your caliber- who thinks will verify every thing from Quran-

1. The No. Of Prayers and their method-
2. Describe method for Ablution-
3. The amount of payable Zakat-

Ablution

[5:6] O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.

Now - If someone comes up with a method which doesn't fulfill 4 given requirement or with different order than (i.e. Washing foot before face) or with some addition and says that Muhammad SAW said, if you don't do these extra steps than your abulution will not be complete than surely that person is lying because Muhammad SAW can't go against God. Verse also tells me if water is not available than can do tayamum and guidance for that is also there.

What Nullifies Ablution & Tayammum

[4:43] O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while intoxicated, so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or contacted the women (sexually), and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.

Relaxation of Prayer

[2:239] Under unusual circumstances, you may pray while walking or riding. Once you are safe, you shall commemorate GOD as He taught you what you never knew.

Direction for Prayer

[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka'aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."

[2:144] We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.

[2:145] Even if you show the followers of the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor shall you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah. If you acquiesce to their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will belong with the transgressors.

[22:26] We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine: "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.

Guidance for Praying

[2:43] You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and bow down with those who bow down.

[4:102] When you are with them, and lead the Contact Prayer (Salat) for them, let some of you stand guard; let them hold their weapons, and let them stand behind you as you prostrate. Then, let the other group that has not prayed take their turn praying with you, while the others stand guard and hold their weapons. Those who disbelieved wish to see you neglect your weapons and your equipment, in order to attack you once and for all. You commit no error, if you are hampered by rain or injury, by putting down your weapons, so long as you remain alert. GOD has prepared for the disbelievers a shameful retribution.

[7:204] When the Quran is recited, you shall listen to it and take heed, that you may attain mercy.

[48:29] Muhammad—the messenger of GOD—and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe and lead a righteous life forgiveness and a great recompense.

Order of Praying with group (Jamaat), While in Jamaat one should lead, I should listen silently when Imam is reciting, Bowing & Prostrate is must and Prayer can't be finished before Prostrate, In Prostrate my face must touch the ground. So - If someone come up with Hadith that Bowing or Prostrate is not required or some method which suggest that order can be change, Or My hands must be on chest, belly or untied otherwise Muhammad SAW said that Prayer will not be accepted than this part is simply addition, If position of hand was that much important than it should have been in Qur^an. Main thing is i must be humble as IF i am standing in front of God.

[6:161] Say, "My Lord has guided me in a straight path—the perfect religion of Abraham, monotheism. He never was an idol worshiper."
[17:110] Say, “Call Him GOD, or call Him Most Gracious; whichever name you use, to Him belongs the best names.
[17:111] And proclaim: "Praise be to GOD, who has never begotten a son, nor does He have a partner in His kingship, nor does He need any ally out of weakness," and magnify Him constantly.
[20:14] "I am GOD; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) to remember Me
[23:1-2] Successful indeed are the believers; who are reverent during their Contact Prayers (Salat).
[72:18] The places of worship belong to GOD; do not call on anyone else beside GOD.

I must glorify God, Shouldn't call anyone beside God, I should say that He never begotten a son nor He does have any partner etc, Ask for right Path. Surah Fatihah & Ikhlas are best to full fill these requirements. Now why Quranic verses why not say samething in Urdu or English.

Adam received from his Lord words, whereby God redeemed him; He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful (2:37)

Adam had to utter specific 'words" given to him by God, in order to be redeemed. Similarly, God has given us specific words "Qur^an" and Probably Al-Faatehah is specially for this purpose and if you note in Quran which ever verse start with word "Qul (Proclaim)" contains the contents which glorify God or ask for his guidance/kindness.

Now - If you come up with Hadith associating with Prophet (PBUH) that if i don't do these (xyz) extra things than my prayer will not be accepted than you are simply adding extra to actual Hadith.

So, Dude Guidance for Ablution & Prayer is much clear than other (At-least for me because i recently started to look at Qur^an as complete book) - If you think based on these guidance, i can get ride of sects and can differentiate extra things that are made mandatory and proclaimed that Muhammad (SAW) said if i don't do those thing than my Ablution or Prayer will not be complete & accepted than we can try exploration to get guidance for other things otherwise no need.

 

[Sugarcane]

Obviously a thief would have no problem returning something if he gets caught, for a thief he would rather return the item than have his hand chopped off. You do make an example of a murderer when you execute him in front of everyone else. If the victims forgive him though I do not see how anyone else has a right to kill the man or ask for his head. I am not sure about the bold it is not something that most people even think is up for debate.

Here is the verse of Qur^an regarding punishment of thief

“The thief, male or female, you shall cut their hands as a requital for their crime. This is the punishment decreed by God. God is Almighty, Wise.” [5:38]

The word use here is "قۡطَعُ" and "chop off" are not the only meaning of this word - for example same word use in following verse

[12:31] When she heard of their gossip, she invited them, prepared for them a comfortable place, and gave each of them a knife. She then said to him, "Enter their room." When they saw him, they so admired him, that they cut their hands. They said, "Glory be to GOD, this is not a human being; this is an honorable angel."

Now - If we must take the meaning of "قۡطَعُ" only as "chop off" then the above verse doesn't make sense. So, the verse [5:38] can also be translated as cutting/marking (Not chopping) the hand as punishment - which make more sense. There are lot of mathematical miracle in Quran and i don't think this is coincidence that if you add verse number in chapter no of both places where cutting hand is mentioned is equal 5+38=12+31=43. Plus Quran claims that it's for all times than chopping of hand in this century doesn't make sense. What's you opinion?

 

[khanz]

Sir in Islam either you are with Islam or you are with kufr that kufr can be of some religion or new kufr of secularism but that will be kufr and the denial of Islam and orders of ALLAH and his PROPHET SAW and in Islam state can't be neutral and even many secular say you can't be full secular until you are Atheist

so are you saying millions of muslims in the likes of india,turkey,algeria and tunisia are kufr serious accusations don't you think do you know what happens when you accuse others of being kufr and they're not ?

 

[KingMamba]

so are you saying millions of muslims in the likes of india,turkey,algeria and tunisia are kufr serious accusations don't you think do you know what happens when you accuse others of being kufr and they're not ?

Didn't you know zarvan is the only Muslim on the planet.

 

[Zarvan]

@Talon Ap Bhains Kay Aagay Been Baja Rahi Ho, He doesn't accept Quranic verses, I quoted "Sahih" Hadith, he is rejecting to those as well. These people will never agree to check the validity of Hadith in light of Quran because they will not be able confuse and divide people, they will lose the authority of deciding someone's faith, handing out death penalty as per wish and what not.

A group of people will appear among you whose prayer, fasting and deeds will make you think little of your own prayer, fasting and deeds. They will recite the Qur'an, but it wil not get past their throats, and they will pass through the deen like an arrow passes through game. You look at the arrowhead, and you see nothing, and you look at the shaft, and you see nothing, and you look at the flights, and you see nothing. And you are in doubt about the notch

Mr you always have rejected Hadees you were always involved in making fun of Hadees that is what you were doing @Talon do you believe in the man known as Mirza Gulam Ahmad Qadyani ?

so are you saying millions of muslims in the likes of india,turkey,algeria and tunisia are kufr serious accusations don't you think do you know what happens when you accuse others of being kufr and they're not ?

Sir those who don't stand up against system of kufr and trying to change it are indirectly being part of it but their are millions of Muslims who in all these countries are trying their best to change their kufr systems Sir and I love them and will love to help them in any way possible

 

[KingMamba]

Here is the verse of Qur^an regarding punishment of thief


The word use here is "قۡطَعُ" and "chop off" are not the only meaning of this word - for example same word use in following verse



Now - If we must take the meaning of "قۡطَعُ" only as "chop off" then the above verse doesn't make sense. So, the verse [5:38] can also be translated as cutting/marking (Not chopping) the hand as punishment - which make more sense. There are lot of mathematical miracle in Quran and i don't think this is coincidence that if you add verse number in chapter no of both places where cutting hand is mentioned is equal 5+38=12+31=43. Plus Quran claims that it's for all times than chopping of hand in this century doesn't make sense. What's you opinion?

Year I am on my phone respond in detail tomorrow.

 

[Zarvan]

Well they might all rhyme except for aytullah- i disagree here-
But according to my knowledge-
I came believe The word "Momin" is exclusive to some one not necessarily an expert in religious or socio cultural affairs but a complete follower of Sunnah and Quran- and has some sort of divine relation with Allah- that relation distinguishe him from other forms of Muslims-

Brother I have given him enough reference and sources he just want to reject Hadees those who reject Hadees their next target will be Quran and you will it soon they will start attacking Quran really very soon

 

[Zarvan]

The potential benefits for Pakistan with secularism and failure of the Islamist system:

There are clear benefits of this concept. Also if we impose Wahabism we anger the Sufi's, with Sufism the wahabis and so is the case with any school. It is better to accept our differences and let the various religions thrive. Also for 60+ years we could not implement the Islam we wanted and the rich can get free after committing any crime. This is no justice. Rather than making a mockery of the Islamic system by calling ourselves Islamic republic we should abandon the name altogether. We are some of the worst people. There is no Islam in us.

Secularism don't have any benefits it is junk and and exploitation of society Islamic system is the only solution and for Muslims and we have to implement that with full force other wise problems will increase

 

[Zarvan]

Alright lets try to narrow your responses - lets grant that science is science and there really is no such thing as religious knowledge and science - Would you be OK with that?

Sir Islam encourages Science and their are different kind of Sciences Sir Muslims should develop science universities and also research centers rather wasting time on pathetic stuff and also give Islamic education to students the knowledge of Quran and Hadees and other Islamic knowledge

 

[Sugarcane]

Mr you always have rejected Hadees you were always involved in making fun of Hadees that is what you were doing @Talon do you believe in the man known as Mirza Gulam Ahmad Qadyani ?

Thank you for awarding another tittle

 

[Zarvan]

Thank you for awarding another tittle

Sir I didn't gave him any title I just want to know his views I last remember he wrote about this when he first came to this group from where I found out