‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[muse]

But how so ?

On one level, it is a vision of unity, the unity of all life and variety of experience -- on another level it is a totalitarian vision, where in religion confiscates to itself all experience, denying variety of experience.

 

[Saleem]

and poop has lost its stink......

 

[Armstrong]

On one level, it is a vision of unity, the unity of all life and variety of experience -- on another level it is a totalitarian vision, where in religion confiscates to itself all experience, denying variety of experience.

On the contrary the failure to understand the meaning & purpose of religion along with the variety of perception leads to the dichotomy of levels that you've sketched before yourself. On the other hand one might even argue that every stance is subtly totalitarian in a way even Liberalism itself because every stance has only ever been defined in terms of contrasts & never as a stand-alone idea & that remains ever elusive to every socio-political-economic or even philosophical stand-point I've ever heard of.

 

[KingMamba]

Deen is Dunya & Dunya is Deen; the Sciences that you talk about permeate one another to the point where they are indistinguishable at the core. Islam, as I understand, sees no separation between Dunya or Deen, between Physics or Fasting.

La-Deeniyat is a State of Mind not a quality of anything or anyone.

This one gave me a long pause, made me ponder for a bit. Deen and Dunya are interconnected but they are not necessarily one. You study your deen so you may apply it in the dunya and be a noble person and you study the dunya so that you may better understand deen and prepare yourself for the next phase after death. There are on a equal platform but not one thing because there are many instances where the Quran and Hadiths talk about balancing them out. I could search for the specific references but it may take a while.

 

[muse]

On the contrary the failure to understand the meaning & purpose of religion along with the variety of perception leads to the dichotomy of levels that you've sketched before yourself. On the other hand one might even argue that every stance is subtly totalitarian in a way even Liberalism itself because every stance has only ever been defined in terms of contrasts & never as a stand-alone idea & that remains ever elusive to every socio-political-economic or even philosophical stand-point I've ever heard of.

the failure to understand the meaning & purpose of religion

That's the totalitarian instinct speaking (the voice of Plato)


Meaning and purpose is best left to the individual adherent - Why the need for a monolithic expression?? This is an insight to your refusal to acknowledge variety of Science and experience -- Don't misunderstand, from the most benevolent of motivations, you find the monolithic expression desirable, sure got that -- but as long as the individual's relationship with their understanding of Meaning and Purpose of religion in their own life, their experience, is denied, the unity you seek, will remain illusion -- Forcing the experience of one's self the only experience for others, seems to me. unsustainable, and silly to attempt

 

[truthseer]

Oh! How did know you have more believe on Quran than me…????? Are you the god..???

I have a question. How many times have you read the translation of the Quran from cover to cover?

 

[KingMamba]

No they haven't they subconsciously have chosen to avoid making that choice to begin with as if the need to define the very building block of 'thought' is an absolutely trivial thought at best or a humorously ludicrous one at worst.

I meant people have already defined reason, unreasonable, good, and bad subconsciously although they may not say it outloud. You asked @muse and @LoveIcon their definitions and although they did not answer you it does not mean they do not already hold a position.

 

[Armstrong]

This one gave me a long pause, made me ponder for a bit. Deen and Dunya are interconnected but they are not necessarily one. You study your deen so you may apply it in the dunya and be a noble person and you study the dunya so that you may better understand deen and prepare yourself for the next phase after death. There are on a equal platform but not one thing because there are many instances where the Quran and Hadiths talk about balancing them out. I could search for the specific references but it may take a while.

I disagree, I think that religion was always about the human experience & as such it doesn't believe in compartmentalizing your life as one part Deen & one part Dunya - They are One & the Same or they're nothing.

 

[Sugarcane]

In sharia you would not be able to cut off the hands of a theif who stole because he was poor. Instead the blame would be on the state for not making adequate situation so the man would not have stole in the first place. Reimbursement to the one who was stolen from would also come from the state. That is why zakat is a fundamental pillar of Islam because trying to eliminate poverty is a must for Muslims. In real sharia system all the Pakistani politicians would have their hands cut off because they already had money but continued to loot the awam.

As for blood money that is a decision for the deceased family to make. The murderer does not have a say in that decision if they want him to pay by death he will be executed but if they forgive him and instead ask for blood money he is liable to deliver. Blood money must be payed even if the murderer is forgiven because there has to be some compensation. Take the example of Caliph Umar abdul aziz (RA) he was murdered but forgave the murderer yet blood money had to be given which was then put into the treasury.

Good - Now assume that theif is not poor. Now what? Is stealing bigger crime than murder? Why eye for eye but can be forgiven IF the victem want but chop off hand if theft? Forget non-Muslims even i as muslim and humanbeing i ask this question.

 

[muse]

I disagree, I think that religion was always about the human experience & as such it doesn't believe in compartmentalizing your life as one part Deen & one part Dunya - They are One & the Same or they're nothing.

Yes, indeed -- BTW, do find yourself being persuasive with this line of reasoning? Oh, wait, "reasoning" that's neither Deen or Duniya, because they are both the same and since......

 

[KingMamba]

I disagree, I think that religion was always about the human experience & as such it doesn't believe in compartmentalizing your life as one part Deen & one part Dunya - They are One & the Same or they're nothing.

No Islam does not ask you to compartmentalize deen or dunya because if it did it would be saying that both deen and dunya are conflicting ideas. That is not the case, they go hand in hand sort of life ying to yang with the whole becoming a perfect momin. Prophet Muhammad PBUH once said the learned believer is held in higher regard than the devout believer. The meaning behind this was that a Muslim who also holds knowledge of dunya is better than a Muslim who only holds knowledge to deen. That comes back to need for there to be a balance between the two. The learned believer has both so he is held in higher regard than someone who only focuses on deen. They however are not the same thing because if they were would not just being really knowledge in deen automatically be the equivalent of being knowledge of dunya??

 

[Sugarcane]

@muse - Religion is not science but guidance, So no comparison between two. Divine is supreme but you have to use intellect and human reasoning to understand Divine

 

[KingMamba]

Good - Now assume that theif is not poor. Now what? Is stealing bigger crime than murder? Why eye for eye but can be forgiven IF the victem want but chop off hand if theft? Forget non-Muslims even i as muslim and humanbeing i ask this question.

Well tell me why he is stealing if he is not poor?? If he is not in need he should not be stealing to begin with, the cutting of the hand is supposed to serve as a detterent to evil men who steal just to steal. Those who never steal like you and me have nothing to worry about. Murder can be forgiven because the affected find it within their hearts to forgive the man, sometimes people get angry and do things they regret later. Sometimes before the deceased dies he forgives his murderer out of his own heart. In Islam it talks about forgiveness many times, even Allah almighty is so merciful that he is willing to forgive so many sins if we whole heartily ask. That being said that does not mean a murderer can continue to kill after being forgiven the first time around. Once someone becomes a menace to the safety of other citizens in Islam they are executed for the betterment of the people. There is precedent for this in Hadith.

 

[muse]

@muse - Religion is not science but guidance, So no comparison between two. Divine is supreme but you have to use intellect and human reasoning to understand Divine

So it's divine guidance?? If yes, then what does "secular" mean in the context of Muslims and Islam?

You have to use "Human" reasoning to understand the "Divine"?? Doesn't that make the divine entirely human??

 

[KingMamba]

So it's divine guidance?? If yes, then what does "secular" mean in the context of Muslims and Islam?

You have to use "Human" reasoning to understand the "Divine"?? Doesn't that make the divine entirely human??

What do you think about secularism as it relates to Pakistan??