‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Patriots]

Have you read the versus of Quran which i quoted??? Let me again quote with more easy translation



It's clear guidance for people like us that don't follow other than Quran (Hadith & Sunnah) blindly because Prophet (PBUH) himself is not here to verify what is being attributed to him is right or wrong. All i say is just blindly believing all the book of hadiths or sunnahs we must ensure that what is being told in those books comply with Quran

If you will put Ahadith on the side that these are not verified so implementation could not be possible then can you answer me that Quran just tell us that pray the Salat … pay the Zakat … perform the Hajj … Then how could be we pray the Salat … pay the Zakat & perform the Hajj without guidance of Hadith … It means there should no Salat … No Zakat & No Hajj … Because we don’t have procedure to perform these acts ..
Second Allah had well known Muhaddiseen Kiram who had got separated all such Ahadith which were modified by the hyporites … So being a Muslim we have completely believe on Sahih & Hasan Ahadith ..

 

[Patriots]

Wrong analogy.

If Singapore has strict law but if Singapore can not imlement the law despite hundreds and thousands of eminent lawyers working for the state over a period of 1500 years and the law keeps scre*ing people over for that long to that extent affecting literally millions if not billions of people over that period then YES THE LAW HAS FAILED and time for reform.

But let me tell you, you can not do it because you BELIEVE and hence are no different from Zarvan

Taliban implemented successfully Islamic laws but whole world including Muslim world have become their enemy … Actually as a human being we have our self – interests … For sake our self – interest we can cut one’s neck without any regret … That’s why we don’t want to implement just to protect out self – interest ..

 

[Dubious]

So Are you supporting Slavery - how can 1 religion mention about a slave and master, that means the religion is seeing gods creation as 2 types

@Indrajith i knew this would be the next question...Very predictable!

BTW, @LoveIcon ALREADY answered it

 

[Dubious]

If you will put Ahadith on the side that these are not verified so implementation could not be possible then can you answer me that Quran just tell us that pray the Salat … pay the Zakat … perform the Hajj … Then how could be we pray the Salat … pay the Zakat & perform the Hajj without guidance of Hadith … It means there should no Salat … No Zakat & No Hajj … Because we don’t have procedure to perform these acts ..
Second Allah had well known Muhaddiseen Kiram who had got separated all such Ahadith which were modified by the hyporites … So being a Muslim we have completely believe on Sahih & Hasan Ahadith ..

@Patriots The topic is not if all hadith are correct or faulty! We KNOW very well some have been added over the year!

The topic is IF QURAN says it is complete book, it is easy to understand WHY DO WE NEED HADITH? DO WE ACTUALLY NEED THEM?

 

[Armstrong]

@Talon :

Jalal-E-Padshahi Ho K Jamhoori Tamasha Ho
Juda Ho Deen Siasat Se To Reh Jati Hai Changaizi

Statecraft divorced from Faith to reign of terror leads,
Though it be a monarch’s rule or Commoners’ Show.

(Iqbal)

 

[Patriots]

why are you guys arguing about quran? does a secularist face death threat in pakistan, plz discuss about that.

Nothing .... Just a propaganda ..

why are you guys arguing about quran? does a secularist face death threat in pakistan, plz discuss about that.

Nothing .... Just a propaganda ..

 

[Indrajith]

As for those who think Quran is copied from another book or what not:

Goethe, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, p. 526.
"The Koran admittedly occupies an important position among the great religious books of the world. Though the youngest of the epoch-making works belonging to this class of literature, it yields to hardly any in the wonderful effect which it has produced on large masses of men. It has created an all but new phase of human thought and a fresh type of character. It first transformed a number of heterogeneous desert tribes of the Arabian peninsula into a nation of heroes, and then proceeded to create the vast politico-religious organizations of the Muhammadan world which are one of the great forces with which Europe and the East have to reckon today."


G. Margoliouth, Introduction to J.M. Rodwell's, THE KORAN, New York: Everyman's Library, 1977, p. vii.
"A work, then, which calls forth so powerful and seemingly incompatible emotions even in the distant reader - distant as to time, and still more so as a mental development - a work which not only conquers the repugnance which he may begin its perusal, but changes this adverse feeling into astonishment and admiration, such a work must be a wonderful production of the human mind indeed and a problem of the highest interest to every thoughtful observer of the destinies of mankind."


Dr. Steingass, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, pp. 526-527.
"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?"


Maurice Bucaille, THE BIBLE, THE QUR'AN AND SCIENCE, 1978, p. 125.
"Here, therefore, its merits as a literary production should perhaps not be measured by some preconceived maxims of subjective and aesthetic taste, but by the effects which it produced in Muhammad's contemporaries and fellow countrymen. If it spoke so powerfully and convincingly to the hearts of his hearers as to weld hitherto centrifugal and antagonistic elements into one compact and well-organized body, animated by ideas far beyond those which had until now ruled the Arabian mind, then its eloquence was perfect, simply because it created a civilized nation out of savage tribes, and shot a fresh woof into the old warp of history."


Dr. Steingass, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, p.528.
"In making the present attempt to improve on the performance of my predecessors, and to produce something which might be accepted as echoing however faintly the sublime rhetoric of the Arabic Koran, I have been at pains to study the intricate and richly varied rhythms which - apart from the message itself - constitute the Koran's undeniable claim to rank amongst the greatest literary masterpieces of mankind... This very characteristic feature - 'that inimitable symphony,' as the believing Pickthall described his Holy Book, 'the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy' - has been almost totally ignored by previous translators; it is therefore not surprising that what they have wrought sounds dull and flat indeed in comparison with the splendidly decorated original."


Arthur J. Arberry, THE KORAN INTERPRETED, London: Oxford University Press, 1964, p. x.
"A totally objective examination of it [the Qur'an] in the light of modern knowledge, leads us to recognize the agreement between the two, as has been already noted on repeated occasions. It makes us deem it quite unthinkable for a man of Muhammad's time to have been the author of such statements on account of the state of knowledge in his day. Such considerations are part of what gives the Qur'anic Revelation its unique place, and forces the impartial scientist to admit his inability to provide an explanation which calls solely upon materialistic reasoning."
Maurice Bucaille, THE QUR'AN AND MODERN SCIENCE, 1981, p. 18.




Send me the QURANIC verse and we will see its REAL translation and not what someone said!



I see...so its according to him...not to the Quran nor according to Islam!

Your point?

Dear , if I am wrong , correct me , The Holy Quran was not compiled or written during the time of prophet as per my understanding , it was compiled in the current form during the third or fourth Khalifa

 

[Dubious]

Dear , if I am wrong , correct me , The Holy Quran was not compiled or written during the time of prophet as per my understanding , it was compiled in the current form during the third or fourth Khalifa

There was a copy available but since soo many memorized it did not feel the need to make further copies. After the battle of Yamamah, during the time of the 1st Khalif it was compiled as a book similar to the 1st...

why are you guys arguing about quran? does a secularist face death threat in pakistan, plz discuss about that.

We already discussed that...THERE ARE SOOO MANY SECULAR minded people roaming about Pakistan, breathing its air as alive as you and me!

The original copy if I am not mistaken is either in Madina or Mekkah!

 

[Indrajith]

Talon I would appreciate if you check the correctness, as per my knowledge

FORMAL COMPILATION Of Holy Quran AS a "BOOK"
After the Prophet's death, the community chose Abu Bakr as their temporal chief, the Khalifah of the Messenger, the Caliph. About a year later, a large number of those known as authoritative memorizers were killed in a battle. According to authentic Hadith literature, `Umar Ibn al Khattab (who became the second Caliph) was alarmed by this and concerned that the next generation may not have enough teachers of the Qur'an. He, therefore, approached Abu Bakr, and suggested that a formal compilation of the Qur'an be prepared on materials that would be convenient to store, maintained, and used as a reference. According to the Hadith literature, Abu Bakr was reluctant to do some thing the Prophet himself had not undertaken. After a few days, however, he "became inclined" to the idea and asked Zayd to undertake the task. Zayd says he also hesitated but, after contemplation, also "became inclined" and agreed to undertake the work. A committee was formed to do the job. They compiled a collection by checking and double checking each Ayah of the existing record of the Qur'an with the memories of each member of the committee as well as of the other prominent experts. This copy was housed with the Prophet's wife Hafsa. (She was a daughter of `Umar ibn al Khattab).

 

[Dubious]

Talon I would appreciate if you check the correctness, as per my knowledge

FORMAL COMPILATION Of Holy Quran AS a "BOOK"
After the Prophet's death, the community chose Abu Bakr as their temporal chief, the Khalifah of the Messenger, the Caliph. About a year later, a large number of those known as authoritative memorizers were killed in a battle. According to authentic Hadith literature, `Umar Ibn al Khattab (who became the second Caliph) was alarmed by this and concerned that the next generation may not have enough teachers of the Qur'an. He, therefore, approached Abu Bakr, and suggested that a formal compilation of the Qur'an be prepared on materials that would be convenient to store, maintained, and used as a reference. According to the Hadith literature, Abu Bakr was reluctant to do some thing the Prophet himself had not undertaken. After a few days, however, he "became inclined" to the idea and asked Zayd to undertake the task. Zayd says he also hesitated but, after contemplation, also "became inclined" and agreed to undertake the work. A committee was formed to do the job. They compiled a collection by checking and double checking each Ayah of the existing record of the Qur'an with the memories of each member of the committee as well as of the other prominent experts. This copy was housed with the Prophet's wife Hafsa. (She was a daughter of `Umar ibn al Khattab).

It can be used as a rough summary with few exceptions.... Prophet said I leave behind kittab WHICH we know means book...Al kittab can not be something inside someone's head...

Abu Bakar was the 1st khalif and ordered it to be written after Umar asked it because many had died in the battle as stated in your para.
@Indrajith The para you quoted contradicted itself at the 2 places I made bold...

1st it says Abu Bakr hesitated and was reluctant to do some thing the Prophet himself had not undertaken. YET there was a book with Hafsa, the Prophet's wife....Where did she get the book had it not ALREADY been produced?

 

[Sugarcane]

If you will put Ahadith on the side that these are not verified so implementation could not be possible then can you answer me that Quran just tell us that pray the Salat … pay the Zakat … perform the Hajj … Then how could be we pray the Salat … pay the Zakat & perform the Hajj without guidance of Hadith … It means there should no Salat … No Zakat & No Hajj … Because we don’t have procedure to perform these acts ..
Second Allah had well known Muhaddiseen Kiram who had got separated all such Ahadith which were modified by the hyporites … So being a Muslim we have completely believe on Sahih & Hasan Ahadith ..

Everything important for prayer is mentioned i.e. Aboulation, Timings, Number of Prayers, What to Recite, Important Positions in Prayer etc. Here are some examples, can quote you more if required

Ablution

005:006 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

004:043 O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again

Direction For Prayer
2:150 So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither: that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided

Important Positions of Prayer

02-238 Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

22-26 Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

Comprehension And Purpose Of Prayer

23-2 Those who humble themselves in their prayers;

017:110-111 Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between." Say: "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"

 

[Backbencher]

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

religion is side stepping "secularism" as the talking point.. kamse kam yaham tho secularism ko chance de do

 

[Arabian Legend]

If all the Hadith's are correct than why those are contradictory and led to sects???




We set up against every prophet enemies, human and jinn devils, who exhort each other to invent fancy statements in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. (But it is God's will) in order that the minds of those who do not believe in the hereafter may listen thereto, and to let them accept it, and to expose their true identity." (6:112-113)

And the messenger will say, 'My Lord, my people have deserted THIS QURAN.' We thus set up against every prophet enemies who are wicked. YOUR LORD SUFFICES AS A GUIDE AND SUPPORTER (i.e., Quran is enough)." (25:30-31)

"There are those who advocate vain causing diversion from the path of God, without knowledge, and fail to take such actions seriously; these have deserved humiliating retribution. And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly, as if he never heard them; as if his ears are deaf; promise him painful retribution." (31:6-7)

before we get into discussion about your first question and the Ayat you provided I just want you answer my simple question pls.


from where do you get to know how to practice your religion rituals?

for example; Wudu, Ghusl, Tayammum, Salat, Zakat, Hajj, Omrah

My simple Question do you agree with God's words that Quran is easy & complete or not?

Yes I do.


There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. Surah Al-Ahzab 22

 

[Indrajith]

It can be used as a rough summary with few exceptions.... Prophet said I leave behind kittab WHICH we know means book...Al kittab can not be something inside someone's head...

Abu Bakar was the 1st khalif and ordered it to be written after Umar asked it because many had died in the battle as stated in your para.
@Indrajith The para you quoted contradicted itself at the 2 places I made bold...

1st it says Abu Bakr hesitated and was reluctant to do some thing the Prophet himself had not undertaken. YET there was a book with Hafsa, the Prophet's wife....Where did she get the book had it not ALREADY been produced?

it never said there was a book "They compiled a collection & this copy was housed with Hafsa" - it didnt say a book already existed - if it did , then why should they compile & authenticate again