Admiral: U.S. submarine forces decline as forces of China, Russia, Iran adv

[EMERCOM]

SSK's has limited range and need to periodically return to port for refueling ( else you have to use submarine tenders ) also they need to surface/snorkel every week or so in order to recharge their batteries thus revealing their approximate position to radars and satellites.

SSK accompanying a SSBN would defeat the whole concept of a free ranging Submerged missile carrier as you SSBN's would have to curtail their patrol area and speed in order to keep pace with SSK's which they are unlikely to do as it would reveal their gross position thus making it easier to hunt them.

Artic and the Barents are littoral type areas.

Are there too many resources in the Caucasus?
Cuacasus always sucked out people and resorses from Russia, energy and money without giving anything in return. Russia had to spend a lot of force to stop the uprising Highlanders paid by English.
Russia did not have colonies, so it can not still something.
All wild tribes became part of the Russian Empire and the local wild mountainous become equated to the Russian aristocrats whose ownership could exceed the area of ​​the average European kingdom. Russia has always given savage tribes far more than took from them - this is the difference between Russia and the West.
American Indians long ago rotting in the land of their ancestors, and the natives in Russia have their republics, universities, parliaments, industry.

Vostok,muslims are not worthy of mercy.What Russia did to them was right.Look at what muslims did in India because indian hindus did not believe in Violence and mass murder. I thank you Russians for putting and conquering muslims and ethnic cleansing them.

virginia class is more quiet than any nuclear subs out there. Its probably approaching that of diesel electric sub.

Evidence? I am skeptical after all a swedish SSK outwitted several nuclear submarines.

 

[anonymus]

Artic and the Barents are littoral type areas.

They are, but the question is that why would a Russian commander limit the range of his SSBN's to littoral areas when they could patrol any of the three major Oceans.

Limiting them to Arctic and Barents would reduce the area that enemy has to put under surveillance thus allowing him to concentrate more assets in that area.

Whole Philosophy behind a nuclear powered sub is to provide them with so much range that enemy is not able to guess their location easily.Limiting them to a particular area goes against their very purpose.

+ during winters your SSK's would find it difficult to break through Ice cover thus would be unusable in that environment and any attempt to break through Arctic ice would be pick up by Hydrophones.

 

[faithfulguy]

Diesel subs are quieter than Nuclear subs only when they are lying in ambush with their engines shut down as Nuclear submarines do not have the flexibility of shutting down their engine/reactor when required.

With Engines operating, Nuclear submarines are quieter compared to Diesel Submarines.

Actually, when they are using electric only, its quieter than nuclear subs.

 

[anonymus]

Actually, when they are using electric only, its quieter than nuclear subs.

I too meant same but was not confident regarding electric propulsion, though was sure regarding the fact that a SSK using it's diesel engine is noisier compared to a Nuclear Submarine.

 

[EMERCOM]

They are, but the question is that why would a Russian commander limit the range of his SSBN's to littoral areas when they could patrol any of the three major Oceans.

Limiting them to Arctic and Barents would reduce the area that enemy has to put under surveillance thus allowing him to concentrate more assets in that area.

Whole Philosophy behind a nuclear powered sub is to provide them with so much range that enemy is not able to guess their location easily.Limiting them to a particular area goes against their very purpose.

+ during winters your SSK's would find it difficult to break through Ice cover thus would be unusable in that environment and any attempt to break through Arctic ice would be pick up by Hydrophones.

Simple.In Pacific and Altantic ,the delta 3's will be detected the Seawolfs or los angeles.Same is not so for Delta 4 or Borei. Second there is a lot of static/noise in the Arctic ocean. Third in Artic the nuclear reactor heat bloom will be detectable to Russian satellites (these special ones were created in the 80's) ... So it will make sense to use SSK's in the Artic.Plus the range of kilo class With snorkel: 6,000–7,500 miles

I too meant same but was not confident regarding electric propulsion, though was sure regarding the fact that a SSK using it's diesel engine is noisier compared to a Nuclear Submarine.

Evidence please for Kilo or amur class SSK or Gotland.

 

[vostok]

Vostok,muslims are not worthy of mercy.What Russia did to them was right.Look at what muslims did in India because indian hindus did not believe in Violence and mass murder. I thank you Russians for putting and conquering muslims and ethnic cleansing them.

There was no ethnic cleansing. Those tribes that lived peacefully in the Empire, not trying to attack and plunder their neighbors - they had not been touched. But there were others, they did not know how to live peacefully, were predatory way of managing - attacked peaceful Christian lands, plundered, sold into slavery Christians - so they have lived for centuries. But there were others who longed for peace, develop culture and science - they have voluntarily entered into the Russian Empire, asked the Tzar to accept them.
I do not share your opinion about Muslims. I do not like just freezed fanatical terrorists. Yes, and I think they are just deceived victims, because they think they will go to paradise, but they are waiting for the dark depths of hell. But those who deceive them - they will after death even more terrible.
In Russia, many Muslim nations, for centuries they live in peace with us (exept some of them), and no one bothers them confession.

 

[anonymus]

Evidence please for Kilo or amur class SSK or Gotland.

It is simple physics. Diesel Engine is much much more noisier compared to a nuclear reactor. There is neither need nor any method by which specific submarines could be compared as that data is secret.

 

[EMERCOM]

It is simple physics. Diesel Engine is much much more noisier compared to a nuclear reactor. There is neither need nor any method by which specific submarines could be compared as that data is secret.

I am not convinced . Nuclear reactors have far more components and cooling equipment compared to Diesels and the process of cooling a nuclear reactor can generate a lot more good noise also which is acoustic proofing tiles are used on nuclear subs. You need to read a few books of Norman Polmar. It is easier to reduce sound of diesel engine on sub via acoustic tiling.

 

[anonymus]

Simple.In Pacific and Altantic ,the delta 3's will be detected the Seawolfs or los angeles.Same is not so for Delta 4 or Borei. Second there is a lot of static/noise in the Arctic ocean. Third in Artic the nuclear reactor heat bloom will be detectable to Russian satellites (these special ones were created in the 80's) ... So it will make sense to use SSK's in the Artic.Plus the range of kilo class With snorkel: 6,000–7,500 miles

In Atlantic or Pacific, Seawolf would have to operate on larger grids compared to what it would have to do in Arctic or Barents thus increasing the chance that a SSBN would slip through. Also I am not sure that a SSBN could fire it's missile beneath Ice cover as missile has to rise to surface under the tractive force provided by compressed air. Missiles are not constructed with enough factor of safety that they would launch successfully after colliding with a meter thick ice,head on.


This is the first time i am reading of the technology to detect heat bloom of submerged nuclear reactor and it does not look scientifically appropriate also since even if such a technology exist, there are more chances of it's success if it is applied to open oceans since Ice sheet would easily mask any heat signature from Nuclear reactor due to it's thickness and it's poor conductivity.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

The issue is that there are only a couple of SeaWolf's subs while there are tons of Ohiao. The Ohaio sub may not be upper offensive compared with the SeaWorld, but again, I guess since both are attack subs they will serve the purpose.

Ohio class is SSBN. It carries ballistic missiles and does not participates in offensives. SSBN's job is to patrol in deep seas out of reach of most of countermeasures ( barring enemy's nuclear SSN's ) while it is SSN's job to hunt down enemy's ship and submarines.

Ohio is best in SSBN's category but

In SSN's category, Seawolf class is best. It is also quietest Nuclear submarine.


Until Soviet disintegrated, they use to have a parity with US in underwater capabilities but US has pulled a huge lead in underwater capabilities in past two decades.

There was no ethnic cleansing. Those tribes that lived peacefully in the Empire, not trying to attack and plunder their neighbors - they had not been touched. But there were others, they did not know how to live peacefully, were predatory way of managing - attacked peaceful Christian lands, plundered, sold into slavery Christians - so they have lived for centuries. But there were others who longed for peace, develop culture and science - they have voluntarily entered into the Russian Empire, asked the Tzar to accept them.
I do not share your opinion about Muslims. I do not like just freezed fanatical terrorists. Yes, and I think they are just deceived victims, because they think they will go to paradise, but they are waiting for the dark depths of hell. But those who deceive them - they will after death even more terrible.
In Russia, many Muslim nations, for centuries they live in peace with us (exept some of them), and no one bothers them confession.

I don't think Russia had ever had any sort of a problem with the Muslims; but Russia happens to be a victim of terror as much as India, Pakistan, and Spain.

It is simple physics. Diesel Engine is much much more noisier compared to a nuclear reactor. There is neither need nor any method by which specific submarines could be compared as that data is secret.

Don't waste your time. This guy is obsessed with civil defense strategies.

 

[anonymus]

I am not convinced . Nuclear reactors have far more components and cooling equipment compared to Diesels and the process of cooling a nuclear reactor can generate a lot more good noise also which is acoustic proofing tiles are used on nuclear subs. You need to read a few books of Norman Polmar. It is easier to reduce sound of diesel engine on sub via acoustic tiling.

A Diesel engine has both reciprocating and pumping component while a Nuclear reactor has only pumping equipment.Also a diesel engine practically undergoing multiple micro-explosions every second to generate power.

Regarding Acoustic tiling, Effect of Acoustic tiling on Noise profile of a submarine is secular. It reduces Noise Profile in case of both Submarines.

Instead their effect on a nuclear submarine would be much more compared to that on a diesel submarine as a nuclear submarine could be shielded much more extensively as they are larger in size thus increasing the amount of tiles they could to accomodate.


Kursk used acoustic tiles.

Here are some videos which indicate the difficulty faced in salvaging Kursk due to presence of acoustic tiles.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Vostok,muslims are not worthy of mercy.What Russia did to them was right.Look at what muslims did in India because indian hindus did not believe in Violence and mass murder. I thank you Russians for putting and conquering muslims and ethnic cleansing them.

LoL, you're mindset is amazing! According to many Hindus I had conversations with; none of them pointed out that there is something wrong with the Muslim people as a whole or Islam. The issue comes from a fraction with the Islamic communities worldwide. I can make the same argument about Jews, Christians, and Sikhs.

What about the attack on the Sikh temple in the US? Did the terrorist attack them because he is Muslim?

 

[EMERCOM]

In Atlantic or Pacific, Seawolf would have to operate on larger grids compared to what it would have to do in Arctic or Barents thus increasing the chance that a SSBN would slip through. Also I am not sure that a SSBN could fire it's missile beneath Ice cover as missile has to rise to surface under the tractive force provided by compressed air. Missiles are not constructed with enough factor of safety that they would launch successfully after colliding with a meter thick ice,head on.


This is the first time i am reading of the technology to detect heat bloom of submerged nuclear reactor and it does not look scientifically appropriate also since even if such a technology exist, there are more chances of it's success if it is applied to open oceans since Ice sheet would easily mask any heat signature from Nuclear reactor due to it's thickness and it's poor conductivity.

In Atlantic or Pacific, Seawolf would have to operate on larger grids compared to what it would have to do in Arctic or Barents thus increasing the chance that a SSBN would slip through. Also I am not sure that a SSBN could fire it's missile beneath Ice cover as missile has to rise to surface under the tractive force provided by compressed air. Missiles are not constructed with enough factor of safety that they would launch successfully after colliding with a meter thick ice,head on.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...es-china-russia-iran-adv-3.html#ixzz2eyqMj3FC

Typhoon,Boreis and Deltas are capable of breaking out and launching through Ice. Watch a documentary on Typhoons and Deltas and why they have double hulls.

This is the first time i am reading of the technology to detect heat bloom of submerged nuclear reactor and it does not look scientifically appropriate also since even if such a technology exist, there are more chances of it's success if it is applied to open oceans since Ice sheet would easily mask any heat signature from Nuclear reactor due to it's thickness and it's poor conductivity.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...es-china-russia-iran-adv-3.html#ixzz2eyqgItUc

Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines - Norman Polmar, Kenneth J. Moore - Google Books

There are some more good books on this principle.One of them was soviet heat bloom detection and it said that in artic,temperature differences will easily be detected via satellites in any localised zone. Also for the pacific and altantic ,soviets would track the submarine Wake via satellite though I do not know much about this.

 

[anonymus]

Typhoon,Boreis and Deltas are capable of breaking out and launching through Ice. Watch a documentary on Typhoons and Deltas and why they have double hulls.
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I am talking about launching missiles while being submerged. If there are Enemy's air assets in area while the Submarine break out, it is nothing more than a live target practice for them as even best of Submarine is helpless against an Aerial threat.

Most of SSBN's are capable of launching missiles while being submerged but none of the missile is capable of successful lift off after a head on collision with a foot thick ice

Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines - Norman Polmar, Kenneth J. Moore - Google Books



There are some more good books on this principle.One of them was soviet heat bloom detection and it said that in artic,temperature differences will easily be detected via satellites in any localised zone. Also for the pacific and altantic ,soviets would track the submarine Wake via satellite though I do not know much about this.

Even if there exist a technology to detect heat bloom, it has much better chances of working in open ocean than under an Ice sheet as Ice would provide extra insulation.It is basic science.

 

[EMERCOM]

A Diesel engine has both reciprocating and pumping component while a Nuclear reactor has only pumping equipment.Also a diesel engine practically undergoing multiple micro-explosions every second to generate power.

Regarding Acoustic tiling, Effect of Acoustic tiling on Noise profile of a submarine is secular. It reduces Noise Profile in case of both Submarines.

Instead their effect on a nuclear submarine would be much more compared to that on a diesel submarine as a nuclear submarine could be shielded much more extensively as they are larger in size thus increasing the amount of tiles they could to accomodate.


Kursk used acoustic tiles.

Here are some videos which indicate the difficulty faced in salvaging Kursk due to presence of acoustic tiles.

A Diesel engine has both reciprocating and pumping component while a Nuclear reactor has only pumping equipment.Also a diesel engine practically undergoing multiple micro-explosions every second to generate power.

Regarding Acoustic tiling, Effect of Acoustic tiling on Noise profile of a submarine is secular. It reduces Noise Profile in case of both Submarines.

Instead their effect on a nuclear submarine would be much more compared to that on a diesel submarine as a nuclear submarine could be shielded much more extensively as they are larger in size thus increasing the amount of tiles they could to accomodate.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...es-china-russia-iran-adv-3.html#ixzz2eystqOCv

The first generation kilos were much more silent than Los angeles class nuke boats and did not have AIP propulsion. Diesels can easily run silent in noisy littoral waters .Second,the bigger the sub the more the maintainence costs.Also for littoral waters ,diesels without AIP operate marvellously well.

Big is not always better.

The Navy saw its anti-submarine warfare skills diminish after the end of the Cold War. In those days, enemy Soviet nuclear submarines were noisy, and could be detected with passive sonar.

But modern-day diesel submarines are not as easily heard, particularly in regions of the seas where biological life and merchant shipping can camouflage their acoustic signatures. It is there, in the noisy waters of the littorals, where detecting submarines can be a cat-and-mouse game, Navy officials say.

Rear Adm. John Waickwicz, who was the head of the Naval Mine and Anti-Submarine Warfare Command until he retired in January, says the Navy is looking at anti-submarine warfare in new ways.

“When you talk about countries that have 30, 40, or 50 submarines, you can’t wait until they’re around
Diesel-Electric Submarines, the U.S. Navy

It was the older diesels before kilo that were noisy.After Kilo class,Diesels are getting better and better and cost effective too.

Even if there exist a technology to detect heat bloom, it has much better chances of working in open ocean than under an Ice sheet as Ice would provide extra insulation.It is basic science.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...es-china-russia-iran-adv-3.html#ixzz2eyvv226E

That was the strange thing.Maybe not applicable for ice sheets,but for other areas possible.I am not sure what you mean?? You are not a scientist on such applications,sir.

I am talking about launching missiles while being submerged. If there are Enemy's air assets in area while the Submarine break out, it is nothing more than a live target practice for them as even best of Submarine is helpless against an Aerial threat.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...es-china-russia-iran-adv-3.html#ixzz2eywJcc29

Well ,most military aircraft will not be operating over Barents as Russian cruise and theatre ballistic missiles would have destroyed the airbases of NATO in Norway,Alaska and Canada in a matter of time.

Also do you have some charts for noise levels of diesel subs while snorkeling? compared to nuclear? Because most open source documents say diesel are more silent than nuclear.