Accept Vande Mataram or go to Pakistan

[Goodperson]

Savarkar didn't become the Sarvarkar that we know of today, when he went to prison. It was in prison he went through his transformation phase and after he came out he became what he became.

In that sense and to that extent, Ejaz's point stands.

toxic, There are controversies involving savarkar but thats not the thead topic. Nor are the quotes from Eajz involving Savarkar. We can discuss them separately.

 

[MilesTogo]

To convey your views about secularism, you took examples of USA and India. Why not Pakistan and Saudi?

Are you implying that USA/India are more secular and pakistan and Saudi are working towards becoming like USA and India (or better) as far as secularism is concerned?

Ps - Thanks for this conversation.

Islam teaches that you should always speak the truth and never lie. Do all muslims speak the truth and never lie?
Islam teaches us to give money in charity and spend on the poor and needy regardless of religious affiliation. Do all muslims do that?
The Quran explicitly prohibits suicide, drinking wine, sex outside marriage, do all muslims follow these rules? The answer is unfortunately no, many do not.

Similarly, many Muslim majority countries are not secular as in providing equality irrespective of religion but they are a work in progress and many have been improving their rights even though they may not explicitly declare themselves secular. For example recently Bahrain appointed a native Jewish ambassador to US and many gulf countries have temples and Dubai even has gurudwaras. There are some countries who have a better record and some don't.

So what you need to understand is that muslims are not a monolith. There are a range of opinions and those who oppose secularism is primarily because of systems shown by Turkey and France. However, the same word is treated in a different way in the US for example and that has to be explained that this is what we mean by secular. Still you will have a hardcore section who will not see any reason and shut their eyes. There are also muslims like these too. So at the end of the day, you will see muslims all across the spectrum, but majority if they look at secular as the Indian or US model would have no problem with it because it provides freedom to practice your religion.

 

[asq]

Why they don't let 'em to sing Hindustan humara hai

They use Urdu in movies, in daily language, but only for national anthem, they use Hindi which most all Indians do not understand and care about, it is what i see every time listening to their leaders or journalists they speak Urdu and not hindi

 

[MilesTogo]

FYI - Urdu and Hindi are both derivatives of Hindustani.

Languages evolve constantly. Urdu is a fairly new language that originated when Muslims from west invaded the sub-continent and settled here. It is a mixture of many languages.

Similarly, in about few centuries, you could see Hinglish, or Urdglish as mainstream languages.

Similarly, English has retained its name but it is constantly adapting. It is not the same English as few centuries back.

They use Urdu in movies, in daily language, but only for national anthem, they use Hindi which most all Indians do not understand and care about, it is what i see every time listening to their leaders or journalists they speak Urdu and not hindi

 

[Spring Onion]

You have finally spat out the truth.

Secularism is a two-way street. I can not be secular with you, if you are not secular with me.

btw - nice attempt to avoid the relevant question.

What you are talking about is pure hypocrisy.

Truth ? what truth sorry as far as Indian secularism is concerned you claim so hence its your responsibility either to practice it or accept that you are just befooling the masses.

Secularism is not a two-way street where you want Indian Muslims to defy their religion to prove to you that they are seculars.

Secularism doesnt meant to leave your religion rather its otherway round where religiouse beliefs of all faiths should be protected.

 

[EjazR]

To convey your views about secularism, you took examples of USA and India. Why not Pakistan and Saudi?

Are you implying that USA/India are more secular and pakistan and Saudi are working towards becoming like USA and India (or better) as far as secularism is concerned?

Ps - Thanks for this conversation.

I don't want to derail the topic, but as far as protection religious rights of non-muslims go, yes Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have not followed the tenets of Islam in many cases. But even the extent to that which is violated is exaggerated at times. Let me state that just like democracy, being secular is a work in progress. Its not on off state, but you grow into it. Although India is far ahead in this regard it is still a work in progress.

In the case of Pakistan, although not such a good record, there have been attempts from Pakistan to rectify this and they have a department of minority affairs that tries to look after their needs and provide protection to sikh gurudwaras in consultation with the local sikhs for example. But again this is a work in progress. And any sane Pakistani would condemn the recent killings of Christians but the political will of the govt. is the problem and they have failed in this regard. Another problem is unbridled extremism that has been unleashed in the country in recent months making the problem for religious minorities even worse.

Similarly in Saudi Arabia, nowadays, non muslims have their churches were they can attend prayer services in private compounds. Although individuals were always allowed to worship in the privacy of their own home. I have lived there and I know of some hindu families that kept idol images/photographs as part of their puja place in the privacy of their home.

But apart from that Saudi Arabia, still has a kingship which is completely UnIslamic, no muslim will deny that. There has to be some form of democratic governance and since 2004 election reforms were initiated so that elections for local councils could be conducted. So all this is in process and yes they are way behind and it is the responsibility of the muslims to push this forward.

However, countries like Malaysia, Mauritius, Brunei, Iran, Algeria, Tunisia, Turkey e.t.c. have a pretty good record of taking care of the religious minorities overall.
There are a number of muslim countries that officially designate themselves as secular but actually strictly restrict religious freedom in the name of secularism and hence the allergy to Muslim countries with using the term secular. That is why explain that secular can also mean practicing religious freedom as shown by US/India/UK is necessary to clear doubts and I used this example primarily for muslims who oppose secularism.
Islam and secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the other hand there are many countries particularly Arab who have been confused by what secular means vis-a-vis the Turkish experience and are more concerned in hanging on to power by using Islamic imagery rather giving up their seat and allowing democratic governance (Eg. Gaddafi)

 

[EjazR]

They use Urdu in movies, in daily language, but only for national anthem, they use Hindi which most all Indians do not understand and care about, it is what i see every time listening to their leaders or journalists they speak Urdu and not hindi

The national anthem is in Bengali, not Hindi

 

[MilesTogo]

Truth is - Muslims are not secular but they expect non-muslims to be secular. This is hypocrisy.

Secularism is a two-way street. If you want non-muslims to be secular towards muslims, muslims in turn will have to be secular towards non-muslims.

On leaving your religion, Muslims have yet to show that they can follow their religion completely. First start following your religion, then we can talk about leaving it.

Are you following your religion, when you watch Bollywood movies?
Are you following your religion when Sania Mirza wears short skirts?
Are you followwing your religion when you have fashion shows in Karachi and Lahore?
Do you want me to continue? List is endless.

Truth ? what truth sorry as far as Indian secularism is concerned you claim so hence its your responsibility either to practice it or accept that you are just befooling the masses.

Secularism is not a two-way street where you want Indian Muslims to defy their religion to prove to you that they are seculars.

Secularism doesnt meant to leave your religion rather its otherway round where religiouse beliefs of all faiths should be protected.

 

[MilesTogo]

Thanks Ejaz for all your time and energy in past few posts. Hope Jana reads them.

 

[Spring Onion]

Truth is - Muslims are not secular but they expect non-muslims to be secular. This is hypocrisy.

Secularism is a two-way street. If you want non-muslims to be secular towards muslims, muslims in turn will have to be secular towards non-muslims.

On leaving your religion, Muslims have yet to show that they can follow their religion completely. First start following your religion, then we can talk about leaving it.

And what do you mean by Muslims should be secular towards non-Muslims (read Hindus in Indian case)


Have the Indian Muslims stopped the Hindus from worshiping their idols? Have they forced recitation of their religious text on Hindus?


Come on you are just beating the bush arround without making any sense.

when your constitution has claimed to be secular towards all Indians then its your responsibility.

There is no question of Muslims should disrespect their religiouse beliefs for you just because your fanatic organisations want that.

 

[Khajur]

They use Urdu in movies, in daily language, but only for national anthem, they use Hindi which most all Indians do not understand and care about, it is what i see every time listening to their leaders or journalists they speak Urdu and not hindi

The parsi influenced urdo spoken in Pakistan isnt used india .

Spoken hindi is actually " Hindustani" a derivated of hindi and udru ... offical communication is done is pure hindi(sankritized hindi)...and that apart most indian communicate in regional languages or local dilects.

In the past ,bollywood movies used hindustani with strong urdo influence back in 70s and 80,but now a days its more hindi loaded with sanskrit words e,g there was a RGV film called "Agyaat" or unknown...as its these sanskrit words also find place in other regional languages including southern ones .

BTW indias national anthem is in sankritized Bengali(mostly sanskrit) with words that are part of hindi also...its easlily understood across india barring few pockets where they dont understant hindi or sanskrit words .

 

[brahmastra]

'Vande Mataram' not un-Islamic: Muslim groups

Bhopal: It is not un-Islamic to sing "Vande Mataram", two prominent Muslim groups in Madhya Pradesh said Thursday, two days after the clerics' body Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind approved an earlier fatwa against the national song.

Claiming to have translated the song into Urdu, the All India Muslim Tehwar Committee (AIMTC) and the National Secularism Front of India (NSFI) say it is simply a prayer to keep the nation safe.

"It is not against Islam or un-Islamic. This is the reason why several Muslim freedom fighters chose to lay down their lives singing 'Vande Mataram'," claimed AIMTC chairman Osaf Shahmeeri Khurram.



Khurram said "Vande mataram" is not a prayer to a mother goddess. "It is a prayer to the almighty to keep the nation safe and thus there should be no problem in singing or reciting it," he said.

"Even Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind chief Mehmood Madani's grandfather Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madani and his father Asad Madani who was also a Congress MP had sung 'Vande mataram' on various occasions," he claimed.

"Had 'Vande Mataram' been un-Islamic then Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madani, Maulana Hasrat Mohani, Maulana Obeidullah Sindhi or martyr Ashfaqullah would not have laid down their lives singing 'Vande Mataram'."

Khurram, who claims that his organisation has 350,000 members in the country and has branches in 610 districts, asserted that the Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind and Darul-ul-Uloom in Deoband - which had issued the original fatwa - were ignorant of the facts.

NSFI president Irshad Ali Khan Afridi also said "Vande Mataram" was not un-islamic. "The controversies arise only because people who issue such diktats have failed to understand it. They are, it seems, not aware of the facts," Afridi said.

"Why did no cleric oppose music director AR Rahman when he sang the song which not only became quite popular but also took him to new heights of his career?" he asked.

Bureau Report

 

[MilesTogo]

@ mod

I would have appreciated if you pointed out the non-sense in my arguments rather deleting the post.

 

[Beskar]

MilesToGo:

Stick to the topic and avoid the useless rants.

 

[Balance]

Wow, hypocrisy in it's purest form.

Half statements often send wrong messages.

@ Jana

"When we say, India is a secular nation, it's our responsibility to see it stays secular". And we are doing it. No matter what you blab.

You feel injustice happens because you want that to happen. Nothing else. We are leading nowhere through discussion, because this is not a discussion at all. You have made up your mind and want others to follow you.

PS : I just had a nice sleep as yesterday I had a party at my Muslim friend's home. Yummy food with Biryani and what not...