Absence of dialogue is hurting India - OpEd - The Hindu

[foxbat]

I believe India and Pakistan have tried isolation, segregation, intimidation, threats, war, infiltrations, spying and many others, F all has worked thus far.

Maybe they should try what they have been trying to avoid for quite a while. I have mentioned this in a thread once before

My theory -

Allow trade to flourish between India and Pakistan. Open up the roads and Pakistan should allow gas and oil pipelines in India and even give India access to the brand new rail tracks allowing Indian goods to reach Turkey and into Europe in days rather in weeks. In tun India sorting ot water disputes and other matters. The bond of trade will be so high and strong that Entrepanuers, policiticans, the people will try everything possible to prevent any hostilties. The Armed Forces from either side will not be able or afford to dictate the terms as both sides will have to lose a massive amount by going to war and gain everything by staying on track.

Obviously Pakistan will have to do alot to convince its people including the religious side as will India as 60 years of hatred is not going to end overnight.

Unfortunately, as much as China is a good friend of Pakistan, I do think outsiders will allow this and try and derail as much as possible any such scenario, like China with Pakistan and US/Israel with India. Hence why I ask for these wise level headed peple to come forward soon.

very true... On the similar lines, we need to remember that business lobby in the US played a crucial role in enabling the INdo US Nuclear deal to go thru. The trick will be to make benefits of mutual trade exceed the 60 years of deep seated suspicion the 2 countries have for each other..

 

[Solomon2]

you blame ISI for everything that goes wrong in South Asia

No, I realize that India has been the devil plenty of times in the past, but I don't see that happening now. Let's give the ISI a little credit, its head was willing to visit India last year to discuss the Mumbai Massacre, but canceled his plan, perhaps due to parliamentary opposition or the vociferous objection of the former head of the ISI, Hameed Gul. link

Getting the ISI - all of it - to change some of its bad habits is the issue, and I guess that the current GoP has made some progress. Yet the GoP still hasn't given up on using "non-state actors", now or in the future, as tools in its conflicts, and I'd like to see that disappear. It will be easier to give that up if some tangible progress appears possible on the political front - hence the need for talks between Pakistan and India, especially on Kashmir issues.

How do I see Kashmir playing out? I still think the Kashmiris should get a vote on what they want to do - someday, but not today. Despite what Pakistanis say to each other, I believe that if a fair and private vote was held today Kashmiris would reject affiliation with Pakistan. In fact, if Pakistan invaded and conquered Pakistan I think Kashmiris would also reject Pakistani rule. Because they remember what happened to East Pakistan in the past, what happened in Swat last year, and what is happening in Fata today, they will reject the lawlessness, disorder, and senseless killing that is too often the fate of those under Pakistan's misrule.

Once Pakistan cleans up its act to become a better neighbor, popular opinion may change as cultural affinities will re-assert themselves. In the meantime, diplomacy should suffice to see that (1) Kashmir itself is monitored so the world can see whether or not India is abusing its people (to suppress any temptation by India to employ "false-flag" operations to demean Pakistan), (2) increase cultural contacts between Kashmir and Pakistan, and (3) that other nations refrain from recognizing Kashmir as part of India.

 

[Gazzi]

How shall I do that?

You made the claim here solomon, so stop your back tracking and back up what you said as below

^^^^^
You didn't blame RAW, Gazzi, you blamed Martians and called them RAW - after all, while evidence pointing to Pakistani involvement is definite enough that the GoP is taking action in Pakistan's courts, the evidence suggesting RAW involvement is...suggestion.

While I have yet to see definitive evidence that the ISI was involved in Mumbai, I'm not sure what evidence would exist of such - yet the LeT was behind the deed, and as far as I can tell the LeT was and is the ISI's creature.

That is a bold statement to make and I suggest you please back your claim or shut the f*** up as you are making comments which are not true and insulting Pakistan's security services

 

[Gazzi]

Getting the ISI - all of it - to change some of its bad habits is the issue, and I guess that the current GoP has made some progress. Yet the GoP still hasn't given up on using "non-state actors", now or in the future, as tools in its conflicts, and I'd like to see that disappear. It will be easier to give that up if some tangible progress appears possible on the political front - hence the need for talks between Pakistan and India, especially on Kashmir issues.

Please back your claim again, what and where have they used ISI and how can you link them to GoP.

 

[Solomon2]

what and where have they used ISI and how can you link them to GoP.

Hmm, you keep insisting that I do X and Y. Yet you don't seem very concerned at all yourself that your country may be doing such things. Why is that?

 

[Gazzi]

Hmm, you keep insisting that I do X and Y. Yet you don't seem very concerned at all yourself that your country may be doing such things. Why is that?

Why should I when Pakistan doesn't do such things, hence you made the claims so now you back them up.........or is this just a load of crap you intend to make out. "yet you don't seem very concerned at all yourself that your country may be doing such things. Why is that?" ...........Why the hell should I, who the hell do you think you are, your going to make a false claim and i;m going to accept it.......how about you back your claims which you have not done at all and just talking out of your rear end

 

[Solomon2]

Why should I when Pakistan doesn't do such things -

Do you really consider your country's governance process transparent enough that you have confidence in this statement?

 

[Gazzi]

Do you really consider your country's governance process transparent enough that you have confidence in this statement?

Like I have said earlier, don't try and change the stance here and please clarify your statements and claims YOU made here in this thread.......don't try and move away from your claims trying to move somewhere else when the heat gets unbearable

How shall I do that?

You made the claim here solomon, so stop your back tracking and back up what you said as below

You didn't blame RAW, Gazzi, you blamed Martians and called them RAW - after all, while evidence pointing to Pakistani involvement is definite enough that the GoP is taking action in Pakistan's courts, the evidence suggesting RAW involvement is...suggestion.

While I have yet to see definitive evidence that the ISI was involved in Mumbai, I'm not sure what evidence would exist of such - yet the LeT was behind the deed, and as far as I can tell the LeT was and is the ISI's creature.

That is a bold statement to make and I suggest you please back your claim or shut the f*** up as you are making comments which are not true and insulting Pakistan's security services

 

[*chill*]

good news

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/46330-india-offers-resume-talks-pakistan.html#post656459

 

[Solomon2]

Like I have said earlier, don't try and change the stance here -

My stance would be unnecessary if you considered it your duty, as a loyal Pakistani who believes in the rule of law, to investigate these matters yourself. Please respect the fact that the attitude you are taking is one that infuriates Pakistan's foes and friends alike, for the implication is that your purpose is to mend holes in the ISI's cover stories so the next attack can take place with greater obscurity, rather than the pursuit of truth.

This attitude is unfair, but given Pakistani actions (or the lack thereof), can not be considered unjust.

 

[Gazzi]

My stance would be unnecessary if you considered it your duty, as a loyal Pakistani who believes in the rule of law, to investigate these matters yourself. Please respect the fact that the attitude you are taking is one that infuriates Pakistan's foes and friends alike, for the implication is that your purpose is to mend holes in the ISI's cover stories so the next attack can take place with greater obscurity, rather than the pursuit of truth.

This attitude is unfair, but given Pakistani actions (or the lack thereof), can not be considered unjust.

You Sir are nothing then a fraud, FRAUD. You come here making wild allegations and points which you yourself cannot back up. I am not one who tends to get dragged away with emotional debate and fall for your little trick of moving away from a subject. My stance is clear, you made an allegation, You, YOU SOLOMON back it up or please F off from here and keep your diahorea poison mouth elsewhere as you have done nothing but tries to defame Pakistan's security services with no proof, now P*** off

 

[Solomon2]

you have done nothing but tries to defame Pakistan's security services with no proof

The problem with the ISI is that so much of it is secret and apparently unaccountable. That is both an advantage and a liability: the ISI cannot, when accused, claim the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think I'll provide you with proof you'll find satisfactory of ISI support for the LeT. Suppose I had discovered such, why don't you think I'd choose to keep it quiet for now, giving the GoP the chance to open up of its own accord? What is my being labeled a "FRAUD" compared to the prospect of improving relations between India and Pakistan?

Instead, look at this redacted cable, especially page 5, and you'll see that the U.S. government had sources constantly fingering the ISI (and even the MFA!) for extensively supporting the Taliban in 1996. Since the ISI was doing that then, why wouldn't it also be supporting the LeT against India in 2008?

 

[Gazzi]

The problem with the ISI is that so much of it is secret and apparently unaccountable. That is both an advantage and a liability: the ISI cannot, when accused, claim the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think I'll provide you with proof you'll find satisfactory of ISI support for the LeT. Suppose I had discovered such, why don't you think I'd choose to keep it quiet for now, giving the GoP the chance to open up of its own accord? What is my being labeled a "FRAUD" compared to the prospect of improving relations between India and Pakistan?

Instead, look at this redacted cable, especially page 5, and you'll see that the U.S. government had sources constantly fingering the ISI (and even the MFA!) for extensively supporting the Taliban in 1996. Since the ISI was doing that then, why wouldn't it also be supporting the LeT against India in 2008?

So your claim that LeT is the creation of ISi is based on a "report" from the US that the ISI supported the Taliban in 1995 and assume that they must be supporting the LeT also then...........hhmmmm stupidty now comes to mind

Firstly by that logic, the CIA created AQ which would mean they are clearly helping the Taliban even now against its own troops......if i go by your silly logic.

Your post said, the LeT is ISI creation, please prove that point and don't assume you are a pin piece between talks held by India and Pakistan as your revelation may derail anything..........your not that important and by the looks of things noth that intelligent either........now either back your point or please go away elsewhere

 

[Solomon2]

Your post said, the LeT is ISI creation, please prove that point -

No, thank you, for the reasons I've explained. Congrats on getting me sidetracked from the thread topic - must be my lack of intelligence and great stupidity.

 

[Gazzi]

No, thank you, for the reasons I've explained. Congrats on getting me sidetracked from the thread topic - must be my lack of intelligence and great stupidity.

You made the comment luny and I challenged it.....you began the crying about being targeted by me for being Jew/zionist, you tried to derail the thread with your poison crap which you cannot back up, so now go hide in your little hole and sulk all you want