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Abandoning status as "Islamic Republic"

What direction do you want Pakistan to follow?

  • Secular

  • Other


Results are only viewable after voting.
I just don't get it, Dubai has so many clubs and alcohol and all 'western' pleasures and it calls itself a Muslim country, then why does Pakistan have to be ultra orthodox scary Muslim country???

Just be freaking normal like you used to be in the 70s. We need to go back to pre Zia days. But this process will take 30-40 years of re-education. Whats the point, I will never see the good old Pakistan again, I'll be dead.
 
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Plato and Aristotle lived and died before Jesus. Both Christian and Muslim theologians consider them part of their heritage, yes?


Nope,they belong to Western Civilization which eventually came down to be known as WCC
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Yet the Turks under Ataturk did just that.

That is being questioned now.
 
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If you want to truly meet, connect and know Indians.. real life is better.. 90% of what is on PDF is their proverbial intellectual trashbin and sadistic trolls

True, Indians in the US don't even try to associate with their homeland, except for those who really show to the public that they are outsiders by wearing those red dots on their foreheads even in school or have their children wear turbans in school(Sikh's). I actually find many Indians(except for the oldies, in the US) a lot more open minded even than the most open minded Indian on this forum. :smart:
 
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Jaisa karo gey waisa bhro gey. Condemning is not enough, use your voice and your actions to prove this, what happened today and has happened thus far in his holy name, this is not Islam.


bas k dushwar hai har kam ka asan hona
admi ko bhi mayassar nahi insan hona


giriya chahe hai kharabi mere kashane ki
dar-o-diwar se tapak hai bayaban hona


wa-e-diwangi-e-shauq k har dam mujh ko
ap jana udhar aur ap hi hairan hona


jalwa azbas k taqaza-e-nigah karta hai
jauhar-e-aina bhi chahe hai mizagan hona


ishrat-e-qatlgah-e-ahal-e-tamanna mat puch
id-e-nazzara hai shamshir ka uriyan hona


le gaye khak mein ham dag-e-tamanna-e-nishat
tu ho aur ap basadrang-e-gulistan hona


ishrat-e-para-e-dil, zakhm-e-tamannakhana
lazzat-e-rish-e-jigar garq-e-namakdan hona


ki mere qatl k bad us ne jafa se tauba
haye us zodpasheman ka pasheman hona


haif us char girah kapre ki qismat ?ghalib?
jis ki qismat mein ho ashiq ka gareban hona
 
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'Islamic Republic' is our trademark. We've created the title, essentially, and we're going to keep onto to it :tup:
Titles aside, while true that there needs to a minimal and controlled involvement of religion in politics (i.e. laws should no go against the basics of Islam), what Pakistan really needs is development, focus of education blah blah been there discussed this 765 and a half times already.

Point being that secularism will not necessarily guarantee success and development, and having a state religion does not forbid it.
 
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World's richest state in terms of Per Capita Income is Qatar and is very much a religious state. States like UAE, KSA, Brunei have state religions are not only growing and prospering but competing with the rest of the world on HDI index rather favorably. Israel has the highest PhD rate per capita in the world and is a Jewish state. Germany and UK too have no strict segregation laws and are doing just fine. The argument that secularism brings prosperity is simply bogus.

Prosperity is a product of good governance, rule of law, availability of justice, fiscal discipline, education and ability to defend the country. I can list a number of secular states which have totally failed or even worse collapsed, one of them was USSR.

Did You Know?

42 - THAT, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?
Did You Know? The Palestinian Case Against Israel


OT: It is not the change of the name that makes a real change, the change will become apparent when its map is set and indicators of change are identified to measure it against objectives set for it to happen in a certain frame of time.
 
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Whats the point of arguing about something that will never occur

There are 200 million pakistanis most if whom are religiously conservative

which freaking politician will try to push this through
 
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Now people are going to be blame me for having such a negative view of my home country, but I am telling the truth,

However you're not "telling the truth" you're just making statements and wild accusations based on a lack of understanding mostly fuelled by propaganda.

Maybe it is time to abandon our status as the "Islamic" "Republic" of Pakistan, and return to our secular roots which were planned by the fathers of the nation. Pakistan was created because Jinnah and co were afraid that in a Hindu dominated Country, there would always be episodes of violence and disagreement between the two chief religions, as Muslims of India had grown to become an almost different culture.

What secular roots?

The objective resolution was adopted on March 1st 1949 (2 years after Pakistan regained its independence a mere 7 months following the death of Jinnah) to let the world and everyone who resided in Pakistan after its independence know that it was a nation that was to be structured on the principles of Islam. This resolution was promulgated by our first Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan who worked alongside Jinnah and knew better than anyone what he and the other "founding fathers" wanted considering he is deemed one of them.

Jinnah himself stated that Pakistan must be based on the principles of "Islamic Socialism not other -isms" (i.e. not secularism) during his March 26, 1948 speech in Chittagong:


Furthermore, Jinnah himself stated on his April 18, 1948 (4 months before he died) address to the students of Edwards College in Peshawar:

“I am happy to see better things here. What more can one really expect than to see that this mighty land has now been brought under a rule, which is Islamic, Muslim rule, as a sovereign independent State.”

During his speech at the Darbar in Sibi, Balochistan on February 14, 1948 Jinnah stated:

“ . . . I have one underlying principle in mind, the principle of Muslim democracy. It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law giver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundation of our democracy on the basis of truly Islamic ideals and principles. Our Almighty has taught us that 'our decisions in the affairs of the State shall be guided by discussions and consultations'."

If possible pick up the book "Secular Jinnah & Pakistan: What The Nation Doesn't Know" by Saleena Karim. She makes it clear that Jinnah was totally committed to a Pakistan governed by the Quran and Sunnah and dispels the lie that he wanted a secularist state.

When you're referring to the " founding fathers" of the nation who are you talking about? The name Pakistan was formulated by Chaudhary Rehmat Ali, the creation of Pakistan had been pushed by men like Sir Syed Khan and Allama Iqbal since at least 1906 all of whom are Islamic nationalists and/or seeking the independence of our nation that would operate in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah.

This wasn't something that happened overnight or even in 1940 the fact is Pakistan was achieving its independence regardless of what anyone said/wanted particularly the Hindu (the very same people that partnered with the British, French, Dutch and Portuguese to bring down the Mughal Empire). I've discussed this before on other posts but Pakistan has never been a part of "India" our history and civilization are completely different from that of India's many of whose people have been perpetuating lies alongside colonialists for over a century which I've discussed in detail on a number of posts including the following:
Hurriyat leader meets Pakistan envoy after talks called off | Page 4

What Pakistan needs is a complete overhaul of the government and to some extent the military leadership and to place good, nationalist Muslims in charge who run the nation in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah.

they don't have time for a family of murdered Ahmaids, Shias, Chrisitans, Hindus, etc. But of course it is all Mossad's, RAW's and CIA's fault, because they have so much time and resources to waste on us.

A lot of the blame does fall on various foreign intelligence agencies considering their history is replete with destabilizing other countries and anyone who would deny this is living a lie.

You already had two incidences where American spies (ex. R. Davis and J. Coxx) were caught running around the country and in the case of Davis the US government outright lied about his credentials and reason for being in Pakistan.

In the case of RAW both American and Indian sources confirm that India trained, armed and even embedded their troops within the Mukhti Bahini terrorist organization that went around slaughtering Bengali's and particularly Bihari's within Bangladesh before and during the '71 war.

So please excuse us for being aggressive and hostile towards them.

Can a mature, mentally healthy human being actually believe such far fetched stories? Is this the result of one or two generations of cousin-cousin breeding?

"far fetched stories"?

At one time the idea of secret prisons littered around the world operated by US intelligence where people who were kidnapped and then tortured or large scale spy programs which included illegal wiretaps was thought to be a work of fiction only present in spy novels until they were exposed.
BBC NEWS | Americas | Bush admits to CIA secret prisons
BBC News - Edward Snowden: Leaks that exposed US spy programme

Just a quick side note first cousins getting married and producing offspring increases the risk of deformities by 1.7-2.8% above the general population risk so I doubt that most of your detractors, assuming they even fall into this category, have had their mental capacity affected in any way.
http://www.sbgm.org.br/artigos/artigo_aconselhamento.pdf

Also considering the prevalence of cousins getting married in Japan (as high as 5.9-14.7% in the 60s) is something like 4 times higher than the US and the former consistently ranks higher on international testing should be indicative of that. In fact Japan's former PM Kan Naoto is married to his first cousin.

It is rather ironic you mention UAE, KSA and Qatar, who are infamous for using SLAVE labor from Nepal, India and our beloved Pakistan.

People choosing to travel and work in Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Qatar isn't slavery.

Saudi Arabia (like virtually all of Europe, Canada or the US) have not even signed the UN's "International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families" and their laws along with their practices are very well known so those who venture there know what they're getting into

There may be a few people kept against their will in Saudi Arabia and there definitely will be workers who are abused but the same holds true in the US and Canada. Obviously rampant physical abuse of employees is something all countries should crack down on but in the end the people who work there went of their own free will and knew the conditions
 
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True, Indians in the US don't even try to associate with their homeland, except for those who really show to the public that they are outsiders by wearing those red dots on their foreheads even in school or have their children wear turbans in school(Sikh's). I actually find many Indians(except for the oldies, in the US) a lot more open minded even than the most open minded Indian on this forum. :smart:

Why do you even talk when you have little idea what are you talking about ?
Wearing a bindi is not showoff, its in the culture. And wearing a turban is not a showoff either, its an integral part of Sikhism.
Indians are a close community in US and there is no particular reason for which Indians will not associate themselves to the homeland while abroad. As a matter of fact, we are proud of it.

It's the other way around for the Pakistanis rather. They try to pose like Indians or try not to disclose that they are Pakistanis and let people assume that they are Indians, particularly in US.
 
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Jaisa karo gey waisa bhro gey. Condemning is not enough, use your voice and your actions to prove this, what happened today and has happened thus far in his holy name, this is not Islam.

That incident is the byproduct of France's own foreign policy which has been bad since the 1500s but in relation to this case particularly over the last 13 years.

The country has been engaged in warring and/or interfering with countries over the last 10 years like Afghanistan, Iraq and Mali none of which did anything to France to justify the assault and then you have these magazines insulting the very culture of those same people and hundreds of millions of others only resulted in more anger and eventually this incident.

There's really nothing more to say.
 
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So this must be fabricated also....

political-quaid-e-azam-quotes-4082-jpg.182047



First you quoted Qudrat ullah Shahab and now you are quoting Quaid e Azam. They are two different people you know.

Anyways, first there are many quotes of Jinnah sab which are contradictory. For example;

The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.

I am not fighting for Muslims, believe me, when I demand Pakistan.
    • At a Press Conference, 14 November 1946

You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed. That has nothing to do with the business of the State.

    • Presidential address to the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, Karachi, 11 August 1947

The point is that Jinnah sab's quotes do not give a very clear picture of his vision for Pakistan. He was a politician after all and his words reflect the politics of his day and the audience he was addressing at that particular time.

Secondly, we must assess our situation based on present NOT on past. Look around and you'll see that we need serious reforms in our society. The "Islamic Republic" has so far failed to provide its citizens the life they want.
 
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Secular does not mean progress, many African nation are secular but not much progress compared to Pakistan. Islamic nation does not means backward, although there would be only few examples I can give for successful Islamic country in modern times, if any. The thing Pakistan needs is unity among its people, there is no point going secular if half of the country wants Shariah, and vice versa. We need government who works for the people and we should not cheat our own people. As far as foreign policy goes, make friends with those who wants to be friends, not slaves of 'powerful' countries.
 
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