A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy & Doctrine

[Armchair]

I've driven in the TLC in the Highlands of Papua New Guinea (PNG). That's where Toyota Tests the TLC.

Offroading is not a homogenous thing. There are different kinds of terrain and there are different speeds at which a vehicle is optimized. For extreme rugged terrain, the optimized product may not be a Ford Raptor. But for going fast in a Baja like setting, there is no mass production vehicle that can compete.

 

[Armchair]

Thinking about this thread, originally the idea seemed to be combined arms maneuver warfare. And by that I mean a strategem to break enemy lines and attack the flanks. As we went more and more pragmatic in attempts to reduce costs, we've ended up with basically up-armed infantry brigades with some minor combined arms elements mixed into the mettle.

It's like biryani which is traditionally supposed to be made with double the weight in meat. Now days, the biryani barely has a quarter of that. Pragmatism gone too far.

However, it is still possible for a commanding officer in charge of a handful of these drafted infantry divisions to combine say 2/3rds of the armour and air assets to create a mobile fighting force. Support that with the motorized component of the force.

 

[Armchair]

Looks like the Indians stole a march on what we were discussing @Signalian

Although there is still scope here.

 

[MastanKhan]

As a chase driver in the US, what seems like a long time ago, I drove a lot of 4x4. All over PA, VA, WV, MD, all the way up to the East Coast. Most I drove a modified Tacoma. However, I think the Ford F-150 Raptor brings something to the table that Toyota doesn't have. Ford trucks are pretty reliable but you'll know better surely than me on that.

MK what do you think of a Pakistani version of a Toyota FJ40? A simple, largely mechanical vehicle that doesn't really have an equivalent among the big boys.

Hi,

Raptor is a sports car---. As it is US built---it maybe sanction prone---.

Toyota engineering believes in " over built " suspension---steering and linkage parts---. You will be surprised to see the difference in size of the toyota tie rod ends ball joints lug nut bolts---ring and pinon gears of differential as compared to american trucks. They are built oversized by default---.

Toyota still builds it basic trucks in africa for UN mission.

Here is an interesting read---.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...hat-transforms-into-different-civilian-trucks

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

Raptor is a sports car---. As it is US built---it maybe sanction prone---.

Toyota engineering believes in " over built " suspension---steering and linkage parts---. You will be surprised to see the difference in size of the toyota tie rod ends ball joints lug nut bolts---ring and pinon gears of differential as compared to american trucks. They are built oversized by default---.

Toyota still builds it basic trucks in africa for UN mission.

Here is an interesting read---.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...hat-transforms-into-different-civilian-trucks

Interesting. So, the idea I was discussing with Signalian was something like a TLC. Perhaps the FJ40. Taking that, modifying it a bit, and creating a "first Pakistani mass produced vehicle". Remember, Toyota got started exactly like that (based on the Jeep) and Mahindra has followed suite. I think such a vehicle would be useful in Pakistan both for civilian and military use. A mechanically simple 4x4 may also sell well in foreign markets. This is one area which has relatively less competition in the wider car market and Mahindra is taking full advantage it seems.

 

[Armchair]

@PanzerKiel here is an idea for a new type of tank to push forward low cost, mass produce-able tanks -
1. Two seat - driver and commander. Both driver and gunner have helmet mounted sights that allow them to fire different weapons. This allows a very small tank, as protecting 2 operators is a lot easier. Both operators sit at the back of the tank, so easy exit and minimal space required
2. Weaponry - single 35mm cannon. 8x ATGMs, box mounted. 1 mortar (??)
3. Smoke generator, chaff
4. 800hp diesel engine
5. Weight class - 30 tons (I believe with a 2 person tank, a 30 ton tank would have the same protection level as a 50 ton conventional tank).
6. Built simply with mass production in mind.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel here is an idea for a new type of tank to push forward low cost, mass produce-able tanks -
1. Two seat - driver and commander. Both driver and gunner have helmet mounted sights that allow them to fire different weapons. This allows a very small tank, as protecting 2 operators is a lot easier. Both operators sit at the back of the tank, so easy exit and minimal space required
2. Weaponry - single 35mm cannon. 8x ATGMs, box mounted. 1 mortar (??)
3. Smoke generator, chaff
4. 800hp diesel engine
5. Weight class - 30 tons (I believe with a 2 person tank, a 30 ton tank would have the same protection level as a 50 ton conventional tank).
6. Built simply with mass production in mind.

A workable solution I believe.

 

[Armchair]

Low cost, scalable solutions can be game changers, because they touch on the heart of the Pak/India dilemma - an over abundance of infantry and an overall severe underwhelmed armour situation.

Here are some more ideas on mechanized / motorized improvements:

1. A tactical harpy-style drone launcher. Could be wheeled
2. The two-man, 40mm cannon tank proposed above could also play the role of an anti-drone vehicle, if a radar is attached on top. You could also automate firing, with a program that automatically shoots down any drone flying a certain axis (like East to West for instance). You could also optionally put SAMs instead of the 8x atgms, sharing the same launcher.

Both these above ideas could bring drone warfare to a contested battlefield and counter drone warfare simultaneously.
3. An IFV / APC that carries ATGM teams and manpad teams could also be a force multiplier. Would allow ATGM teams to rapidly counter changing vectors of armoured thrusts.

I know that @PanzerKiel originally had the idea of putting manpads with APCs to counter air threats, so essentially this is his original idea, not mine.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Manpads with APCs are already in place. They provide short range air defence protection to our mobile groups at all times.

 

[Armchair]

In the Punjab, there are many defensive barriers and natural barriers. It is hard for both sides to penetrate each other. In the north, the mountains make attack difficult. And the desert of Sindh is not like North Africa - they are impassable tracts that make movement extremely difficult.

This makes it difficult for either side to make significant gains in conventional warfare, and battles tend to move towards attrition warfare. One possibility of breaking this stalemate is to use airborne forces - whether paratroopers or heliborne.

India has made some progress towards this but Pakistan has been constrained due to its budget and inability to source utility helicopters. An alternative option that would be low cost and allow mass insertion is to use a little used aircraft today - the An-2

The An-2 is a poor man's helicopter. It can land in unprepared strips - literally on paddy fields and has the ability to literally fly backwards. They are also incredibly cheap - about $1 million or $2 million a plane.

They can not only drop paratroopers but can land anywhere on the plains of Punjab or the deserts of Sindh / Rajestan.

For about 100 million, you could have enough An-2s to move an entire light commando brigade, over India's well prepared defenses, basically flanking them from the sky.

 

[wasileo80]

I knew gun ownership was universal among Pusthuns and tribes in the North West. I do not think gun ownership was that prevelant in Punjab and Sind provinces.

What do you think a trained conscript who does not do well in life going to do ?

People of Punjab are very much known to use fire arms affectively, you can say majority. They use too to operate different types of light arms. Dont know about Sindhi Peoples as there are Vadera Culture and only those people posses weapons and personal guards. But Punjab is very much different from Sindh and comparitvely as percentage not equal to KPK but overall number may go beyond KPK of possing small arms. As Punjab is bigger province population wise so total number of peopl poses small arms may exceed KPK but if we can consider % of Population then definitely KPK would be at top.

 

[Reichmarshal]

In the Punjab, there are many defensive barriers and natural barriers. It is hard for both sides to penetrate each other. In the north, the mountains make attack difficult. And the desert of Sindh is not like North Africa - they are impassable tracts that make movement extremely difficult.

This makes it difficult for either side to make significant gains in conventional warfare, and battles tend to move towards attrition warfare. One possibility of breaking this stalemate is to use airborne forces - whether paratroopers or heliborne.

India has made some progress towards this but Pakistan has been constrained due to its budget and inability to source utility helicopters. An alternative option that would be low cost and allow mass insertion is to use a little used aircraft today - the An-2

The An-2 is a poor man's helicopter. It can land in unprepared strips - literally on paddy fields and has the ability to literally fly backwards. They are also incredibly cheap - about $1 million or $2 million a plane.

They can not only drop paratroopers but can land anywhere on the plains of Punjab or the deserts of Sindh / Rajestan.

For about 100 million, you could have enough An-2s to move an entire light commando brigade, over India's well prepared defenses, basically flanking them from the sky.

AN 2 was already outdated when it entered service some 70 years ago.
it is very slow-moving and an easy target for such rudimentary weapons such as a12.7.
An 2 is a fixed-wing transport ac not a helicopter.
if ur suggesting Aeris Naviter AN-2 than less said the better.
i think u meant to say MI 2, but even if that is the case than we already have lots of junk as it is. troops would be better off being driven their or waliking

 

[Reichmarshal]

People of Punjab are very much known to use fire arms affectively, you can say majority. They use too to operate different types of light arms. Dont know about Sindhi Peoples as there are Vadera Culture and only those people posses weapons and personal guards. But Punjab is very much different from Sindh and comparitvely as percentage not equal to KPK but overall number may go beyond KPK of possing small arms. As Punjab is bigger province population wise so total number of peopl poses small arms may exceed KPK but if we can consider % of Population then definitely KPK would be at top.

there is a huge difference between "hawi" firing and firing" straight" under fire.
majority of the ppl only good at hawi firing.

 

[Armchair]

AN 2 was already outdated when it entered service some 70 years ago. An 2 is a fixed-wing transport ac
, not a helicopter.
it is very slow-moving and an easy target for such rudimentary weapons such as a12.7.

Instead of how old the platform is, if we look at the role that it is trying to fill the answer comes differently. If we are talking about slow moving aircraft - a helicopter is slower than an AN-2. So, logic would suggest the best way to approach the problem is neither with the date of the platform, nor the speed of the platform, but rather what role it is trying to fill - does it fit that role?

If you read my previous post, you'll find why the AN-2 fits the role of having a low cost airborne component, in the absence of a meaningful helicopter fleet. @PanzerKiel any thoughts?

 

[Reichmarshal]

Instead of how old the platform is, if we look at the role that it is trying to fill the answer comes differently. If we are talking about slow moving aircraft - a helicopter is slower than an AN-2. So, logic would suggest the best way to approach the problem is neither with the date of the platform, nor the speed of the platform, but rather what role it is trying to fill - does it fit that role?

If you read my previous post, you'll find why the AN-2 fits the role of having a low cost airborne component, in the absence of a meaningful helicopter fleet. @PanzerKiel any thoughts?

in the latest Nagorno Karabagh fighting. The Azeris are using it as an expendable pilotless drone to spot the Armenian air defense systems and if I may say are doing an excellent job on the cost of the AN 2.

Just out of curiosity how freakin premative u think our airforce is !!.

Plz give this suggestion to the bangali AF.